Ever thought: "that would be a great place for a ski area"?
If you had the funds to do so, and the necessary planning / environmental permissions, where in the Alps would you build a completely new ski area, and why? And if you're keen - give some details about what it would be like. Which peaks would be covered? Would there be a "resort"? What infrastructure would be required?
OK, it doesn't have to be in the Alps, but if it is, more people may be able to relate to your proposal. Edit: it could also be a major extension to an existing ski area.
Yours sincerely,
Elon Musk (/ denfinella)
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 5-11-23 20:23; edited 1 time in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Not Alpes but the Indian Himalayas could do with a mega resort. Sure they'd be lots of opportunities there, they just have to build an airport to get to the remote places first.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Would like to see a tram to the summit of Mont Blanc.
No idea, but I've often wondered whether there is an untouched area somewhere in the Alps (or at least an area that currently doesn't have any/or has never had any lifts), where you could build a decent-sized new resort, and come to the conclusion that the answer must surely be yes?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
You could create an absolute mega resort if you linked up Tignes/Val D with La Plagne/Les Arcs, and going from google maps, it wouldn't take too much.
Glaciers might cause an issue, plus the fact it's a national park.
I kind of assume that there's just not much space left in the Alps. Most places that would be good have already been developed.
I think you have much better options if you look outside the Alps. BC has a ton of places that would be good - Rogers pass (but please leave it just for touring! ), Bella coola, jumbo, kicking horse slackcountry. Plus these places seem less effected by climate change than the Alps so far.
I think those kind of undeveloped places probably have the most potential, simply because the best spots haven't already been taken like in the Alps.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
boarder2020 wrote:
kicking horse slackcountry.
Straight off the back seems like such an obvious place to start
After all it is free
After all it is free
GREAT QUESTION ……..This is not difficult for those who know , of course I don’t want to build there as it would ruin it .
Valgrisanche in the Aosta valley , behind Sainte Foy and Val D’isere .
It’s currently one of the largest Touring and Heliski areas in the alps , it’s at the head of the valley with I think four 3000m plus with glacier peaks to access . Plenty of trees to ski , superb pitch ,all slopes face either North , West or East and being in the alpine ridge great snow . It’s one of the great undiscovered and remote areas of the Western Alps which would be only 2 hrs from Turin .
It’s does have one very small chair for the local race team . Huge area of fun .
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swskier wrote:
boarder2020 wrote:
kicking horse slackcountry.
Straight off the back seems like such an obvious place to start
I don't mean into canyon creek. To the East: Rudis, molars, repeater ridges. 3 chairs and you could basically have another kicking horse. (I think some of this is heliski tenure, maybe they even gave some of it to KH for Ozone/mini ridge expansion, but for the sake of fantasy). Some nice terrain https://manystepsmakemountains.files.wordpress.com/2018/02/dsc_0200.jpg?w=768&h=307
It probably would be easier as a kicking horse expansion rather than a fully blown new resort. But I kind of hope they just keep it for touring, it's nice not having to compete for tracks.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Would love a big linked area in Zakopane, perhaps linking up from Wielka Krokiew (where the ski jumping is as well) over to Kasprowy Wierch. It would be a Monterosa type string of long picturesque runs, with some lovely gentle or at least wide-ish tree runs as side quests. Max high speed covered chairs, min gondolas, but whatever works!
Plenty of seriously cosy Tatra mountain huts along the way for a warming bowl of bigos, some of them also flogging sausages off the grill, which is the best mountain food. Vodka shots optional.
Zakopane is a seriously fun town and accessible by train or bus, so a lift linked decent sized area would be fab - at present all the little areas require a car and separate lift passes. Maybe a big classy Scandi-Polski style hotel with outdoor thermal baths would be ideal; the local architectural style would lend itself that.
Cons of course - chopping through and ruining the beautiful national park, needing snowmaking to ensure coverage, etc. Still, nice fantasy although it would be entirely impossible... I'm such a typical punter - food, comfort, nice runs, I'm sold!
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
A lift connecting Alagna with Zermatt
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
For certain, my fantasy ski area would have no infrastructure built by the firms involved in the Cairngorm express
My fantasy area would be in Northern europe somewhere, or eastern europe.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I do like a game of fantasy ski resort !
There are already plenty of highly developed, highly managed, highly commercial ski areas around so how about going back in the other direction ?
How about a volunteer managed ski slope with no staff, to keep prices low and give members direct involvement in the running and development of the facilities? Say a club hut for cheap overnight self catering, and two or three overlapping, long and powerful refurbished Poma tows. Cheap to construct, operate and maintain. Resilient in poor weather. Snow fencing rather than snow making. weekend and holiday skiing only. A couple of piste bashers to move the snow around. A Grassy base with no rocks to enable a quick start up. At least a 30 minute walk up to the lifts to keep things uncrowded. Friendly, fun, Affordable and sustainable.
Essentially ‘Scottish skiing’ with improved reliability
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@swskier, agreed. A Courchevel - Champagny link looks especially doable (ignoring environmental / planning issues). Bozel as a new hub with a gondola in both directions, one via St Bon to 1550 / 1850, then a second on the Champagny side to the shoulder where Mont de la Guerre breaks off Bozelet.
@Rob Mackley, looking at topo maps, looks like the perfect location, bravo! Not sure that could be improved upon in the Alps, for a totally new ski area.
Plenty of other candidates for French resorts linking up, especially around the Arve valley / Beaufortain. Megeve + Les Contamines + Espace Diamant (+ Les Houches?) is already talked about but is one of the easiest options. Les Gets (Mont Chery) + Praz de Lys.
The undeveloped terrain between Alpe d'Huez (Vaujany sector) and Les Sybelles (Les Perrons sector) also looks ideal for creating pistes. All above 2,000m and mostly north facing. Add several lifts and runs there and it would probably create one of the top 3 biggest domains in the world.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Mon 6-11-23 0:41; edited 1 time in total
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Peter S, ah, Yad moss. I went to a social meeting open sort of thing once a decade or so ago wondering loosely about joining and if my walling and engineering skills might be useful. I was made about as welcome as a fart in a lift. But maybe times have changed?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I often fantasise about places to ski in the Peak District if we were ever to get any reliable snow cover.
Some lovely steep hills on drivers left as you head up the A57 snake pass from Sheffield (near the kinder plateau). One chair could serve half a dozen different slopes.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
BobinCH wrote:
A lift connecting Alagna with Zermatt
I think that's pretty unlikely - distance, topography - but +/-Champoluc with +/-Cervinia has been talked about for, like, ever. It might be getting a little traction, at last.
The Valle d'Aosta Region intends to proceed with the interval connection project between Val d'Ayas and Valtournenche, which could be completed within four years, two for planning and two for construction.
Tuesday 2 May 2023 “We are not just talking about the future of two plant companies, but of four valleys. There is the political will to develop the economy of the high mountain areas, avoiding depopulation, and to give a perspective to those who were born and live in those places. We would make a qualitative leap at an international level, in which politics firmly believes. The hope is that we will now move from the study phase to the operational phase."
With these declarations, the regional president Renzo Testolin spoke at the meeting to present the feasibility plan for the connection, which was held on 26 April in Champoluc (Ayas), in front of a packed audience of politicians, tourist operators, mountain professionals and of simple residents interested in the topic.
The leaders of the two systems companies involved in the project agree that they will finance 20 percent, while 80 percent will be paid by the Region. Federico Maquignaz, president and CEO of Cervino spa, declared: “Without tourism and cableways we cannot guarantee a future for children. This is what must unite us. We respect the mountains and we are convinced that we love it more than those who oppose a system that will help deseasonalize tourism." Roberto Vicquéry, president of Monterosa spa, added: “We are convinced that this highly eco-compatible initiative will enhance the Cime Bianche valley. We have a civic duty to prevent the risk of people abandoning the mountains due to the lack of job prospects."
There has been talk of uniting the two valleys for decades, but it was only in 2016 that the Region commissioned a preparatory study for a cableway connection, from Frachey to Vardaz and from here to the upper pass of the Cime Bianche, also evaluating the environmental aspects , given that the Cime Bianche valley over which the lifts would pass is a protected area and for this reason the project does not envisage the construction of ski slopes*, which would involve excavation of earth and deforestation, in addition to the provision of interventions for artificial snow.
There are five possible solutions proposed, which differ in the intermediate stations, Vardaz, Djomen or Gavine, and in the type of systems and relative number of necessary pylons: the 3S ones have larger cabins than the single cable systems and have fewer pylons as they are much further away than the cable cars.
Giorgio Munari, CEO of Monterosa spa, illustrated the economic aspects: "Considering a twenty-year bank debt borne by the two companies for 122.7 million euros for the most expensive solution (3S system plus automatic detachable single cable), the Amortization would take place over 40 years assuming an opening for 11 months. Thanks to the connection, the increase in first entries for Monterosa would be equal to 7 percent, 4 percent for Cervino.
The increase in the average price of the ski pass in five years would be 7 percent after the construction of the new facility, the increase in turnover of almost 5.9 million euros and that of related activities of 35 million".
During the evening, only two objections were raised against the project: climate warming, which would make it anachronistic to focus so heavily on skiing, and the fact that the valley is part of the Natura 2000 network.
On the first point, the study highlights that the connection will be usable throughout the year and will encourage tourism even in summer and without interruption throughout the year. Furthermore, the reliability of European ski resorts for the presence of natural snow following the expected increase in temperatures of one degree by 2035 and 2 degrees by 2050 sees France and Austria in greater difficulty than Italy (which will from 93 percent in 2021 to 82 percent in 2035, compared to 63 percent in France) and, in the Italian context, Valle d'Aosta and Lombardy are the regions which, thanks to higher altitudes, will hold up better (from 100 percent in 2021 to 83 percent in 2050).
On the second point, the Region commissioned an opinion from the regional lawyers, which established that the ban placed by the ministerial decree on the construction of cableways is not absolute. In fact, a law in the Aosta Valley provides for the possibility of carrying them out after evaluating "reasons of significant public interest, including social and economic reasons".
PS I think Giorgio's economic point got somewhat lost in translation
* The Cime Bianche is a fairly well known if not often skied route. Mrs U used to do it in her youth.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Mon 6-11-23 10:01; edited 3 times in total
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
sheffskibod wrote:
I often fantasise about places to ski in the Peak District if we were ever to get any reliable snow cover.
@denfinella, You have been playing Snowtopia too much.
I don't think I'd spent any time developing links between already existing large resorts (with the possible exception of Bonneville sur Arc to Val d'Isere) but perhaps move to the Gran Paradiso National Park or the Grande Sassière Nature Reserve. No don't whatever you do do that. These are beautiful areas for mountaineering and hiking and should be left well alone.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@under a new name, I meant connecting Klein Matterhorn with Punta Indren so it’s skiable both ways - in a similar way that Skyway allows to ski back to Cham (even if Cham to Courmayeur not so easy)
I often fantasise about places to ski in the Peak District if we were ever to get any reliable snow cover.
We’re really into fantasy!
Ha yes ! However I do remember when I was a lad back in the 80’s . Hallamshire ski club regularly had a rope ski tow up at ringinglow on the outskirts of Sheffield. That was our sledging hill. Jacob’s ladder we called it.
But I have taken my kids sledging there over recent years and found a few hardy souls skiing (and walking up).
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
boarder2020 wrote:
swskier wrote:
boarder2020 wrote:
kicking horse slackcountry.
Straight off the back seems like such an obvious place to start
I don't mean into canyon creek. To the East: Rudis, molars, repeater ridges. 3 chairs and you could basically have another kicking horse. (I think some of this is heliski tenure, maybe they even gave some of it to KH for Ozone/mini ridge expansion, but for the sake of fantasy). Some nice terrain https://manystepsmakemountains.files.wordpress.com/2018/02/dsc_0200.jpg?w=768&h=307
It probably would be easier as a kicking horse expansion rather than a fully blown new resort. But I kind of hope they just keep it for touring, it's nice not having to compete for tracks.
There was talk in the early days that they were going to put a lift into Rudi's bowl for early and late season race training
I guess it a case of 'if they build it, they will come' versus 'if we build it, will they come?'
After all it is free
After all it is free
@BobinCH, ah, I see!
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A good website for this kind of discussion is here, it shows pistes as well as lifts.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@rjs, when I first looked I wondered why/what you'd posted but it's quite cute.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
For a long time I've felt that a swift, not very pyloned link between Flégère and the Grands Montets would be an excellent plan.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Pettneu am Arlberg - always seems a shame that it never worked out.....just one rickety old T-bar lift to the top would be good, could play up there for days, no piste bashers, no fancy mountain restaurants just a couple of farmer's huts, all off-piste and just wild.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Plenty of opportunities for linking the backsides of various existing resorts in the Tirol. Would just have to be careful with south facing aspects and doing enough avy control while not pisting everything to death to make another groomer circus.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@Dave of the Marmottes, Pleased that the link from Rendl to Kappl was cancelled for that very reason.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
rjs wrote:
A good website for this kind of discussion is here, it shows pistes as well as lifts.
Excellent map that. Thanks for sharing!
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
boarder2020 wrote:
... To the East: Rudis, molars, repeater ridges. ...I think some of this is heliski tenure, maybe they even gave some of it to KH for Ozone/mini ridge expansion... It probably would be easier as a kicking horse expansion rather than a fully blown new resort. But I kind of hope they just keep it for touring, it's nice not having to compete for tracks.
Other than the old Whitetooth ski hill it was all heli tenure back in the day. The resort's ridge line was really just the place to shuttle through at the day's start and finish. Sometimes they'd pick up at day's end at the top of Whitetooth, then fly down between the lift pylons; other times you'd ride down the resort and pick up in the car park where the "mom & pop" hut was. There were one or two tourers out the back then too, not a lot, but they were there.
I've not looked up where their tenure is, but it'll be massive. CMH have reasonably targeted that one at daily skiers, so they will use the close-by bits of tenure where they can.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Dumb question, why do we want more new ski resorts?
(I can understand the desire to link up existing resorts nearby. But aren’t there plenty of existing resorts already?)
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
abc wrote:
Dumb question, why do we want more new ski resorts?
(I can understand the desire to link up existing resorts nearby. But aren’t there plenty of existing resorts already?)
I don't! I think we have more than enough.
In a couple of decades we may want to replace some lower altitude areas with higher ones though...
How about a volunteer managed ski slope with no staff, to keep prices low and give members direct involvement in the running and development of the facilities?
Shames Resort (near terrace in BC) is a not for profit co-op ski resort. I think it it follows something similar, but I've never looked into the details too closely.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@abc, I don't either - but it's interesting to imagine where new ski areas could flourish.
@denfinella, I guess we’re all a little bored waiting for snow?
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Aosta, the planned link between Valtournenche and Ayas
After all it is free
After all it is free
sheffskibod wrote:
I often fantasise about places to ski in the Peak District if we were ever to get any reliable snow cover.
Some lovely steep hills on drivers left as you head up the A57 snake pass from Sheffield (near the kinder plateau). One chair could serve half a dozen different slopes.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
), Bella coola, jumbo, kicking horse slackcountry. Plus these places seem less effected by climate change than the Alps so far.
