 Poster: A snowHead
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| pam w wrote: |
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What can I do, after her lessons, to help this progression? Leave her alone?
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take her ONLY on the lifts and pistes that she's already done with her instructor. And open your mouth only to tell her how well she's doing.  have plenty of stops and be off the slopes a good while before the lifts stop. |
+1
Beautifully put.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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dredgey, Not sure I wholly agree with that approach. I understand it but think it is possibly a bit negative and limiting.
I am coming at it from the perspective of someone who has never had lessons. So by your rationale I would never ski at all. Why limit your OH to areas only skiied with an instructor already. Lets face it if you take many pistes they are quite different down one side to the other for instance and you can't guarantee skiing the same piste by the same route each time as it will depend on factors such as traffic and snow conditions.
If the technique is solid, and certainly I agree with putting the morning lesson in practice in the afternon, then that technique will be solid on any other equivalent piste. Now I'm not suggesting going to a black or hard red from the green or easy blues but surely it makes sense to spend the morning skiing hard and researching other varied pistes of a nature which the OH will be capable of skiing even though he/she has never done so before.
I repeat however that I'm not saying you are wrong at all but merely looking at it from a different angle which might give a little more variety than spending a whole week repeating the same slopes which may also in turn then create a mental block in that OH may think " I cannot do that one coz I haven't done it with my instructor!"
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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jirac18, i do see your point. Although, I do tend to do what Pam tells me... 
I really, really want my OH to have a good time. I want her to want to come back to skiing in the future.
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When I think back to learning most things, repetition is key (as long as repeating the correct thing) so I see the comfort in keep skiing pistes and lines on pistes already covered and I know I did that myself to some degree BUT it does in my opinion create a self restricting negative frame of mind and an inhibition to explore other pistes which you might actually enjoy even more......don't forget (getting back on thread) one can always just revert back snowploughing down anything if it gets too hard!! 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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jirac18, it depends on the learner - and on the wisdom of the "guide". For experienced skiers who are not instructors it's difficult to envisage what will scare a nervous beginner - and with some people, if you get them scared (and probably cross....) they might give up altogether.
That's why I sometimes advise experienced partners of someone just learning to ski - especially if they are nervous by disposition - to have snowboarding lessons at the same time. then they'll know how intimidating a simple drag lift can be, or how you can spend the entire ride up the chairlift worrying about how you're going to get off without demolishing everyone around you. 
Some people will relish a bit of a challenge and a new piste with different views. And won't be in the least bothered by a few falls along the way. Others will get so scared they'll forget everything, they'll freeze in the middle of what seems to the "guide" like a very easy bit of piste, possibly burst into tears, get their skis off and either throw them at you or insist on trying to walk down the piste carrying them.
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pam w, All points agreed, key are the expectations, desire and attitude of the learner. I am hoping this week that my OH and kids fancy some variety after their lessons but certainly won't be ushering them anywhere they may end up regretting going. Afterall its a holiday and supposed to be fun, right?
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Fri 13-01-12 19:36; edited 1 time in total
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I couldn't really snowplough when I learnt, so worked out pretty fast that a hockey stop was better and with a little less aggression could be a turn - eventually this was smoothed out into something resembling parallel turns (and yes I've done a _lot_ of lessons).
I only really started to bother to snowplough when race training, it was tool for understanding and practicing, though it is also a handy thing to have in a tight spot.
I reckon snowplough is one of the best inventions of ski teachers to put beginers off forever! I do snowplough around when skiing with littleh (who also is not dead keen on snowploughing and went pretty much straight to parallel (though now he is doing pizzas apparently)- must be genetic!  ) and it is pretty hard work!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| stuarth wrote: |
| I reckon snowplough is one of the best inventions of ski teachers to put beginers off forever! |
Few beginners are initially comfortable with the speed required to be able to balance easily with most weight on the outside ski. If they don't have some sort of plough to help them balance you are going to have to ask them to ski parallel at very slow speeds. That's a tricky skill for a complete beginner to manage, so why make it more difficult for them?
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I can see your angle jirac18, sorry should have mentioned that my girlfriend (now since xmas, my fiance!) is quite a nervous skier and although is progressing she can get a bit panicky on steeper or more often, longer runs. She's getting a lot better and I should have said that although we stick to the route of her ski school, we may vary very slightly by skiing the adjacent run if its a connecting parralel run (we get the instructor's advice first). But in the early days there were tears and the removal of skis so she could walk back UP to the lift whilst in lessons and skiing with me. She is actually becoming quite a good skier now but her confidence needs work/more time. Her snow plough/snow plough turns are perfect and I have seen her ski parralel by natural transition without her even realising. It wasn't until last season when she decided to make a deal with an Austrian instructor in Kitzbuhel that he get her skiing parralel by the end of the week and she'd buy the beers - it worked, she can now ski parralel (on runs she's happy with) and he won a free night out courtesy of her (I paid!). She's still happiest on gentle blues and greens though, but its all about practice now and possibly private tuition. But for many seasons she relied on the trusty snow plough, and without perfecting that I doubt she'd still be skiing. She still reverts back to it if in doubt or course.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| pam w wrote: |
| For experienced skiers who are not instructors it's difficult to envisage what will scare a nervous beginner - and with some people, if you get them scared (and probably cross....) they might give up altogether. |
This has been my situation with my fiance exactly. The last thing I'd want to do is be responsible for making her take a step too far only to damage her confidence.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| stuarth wrote: |
| I reckon snowplough is one of the best inventions of ski teachers to put beginers off forever! |
Few beginners are initially comfortable with the speed required to be able to balance easily with most weight on the outside ski. If they don't have some sort of plough to help them balance you are going to have to ask them to ski parallel at very slow speeds. That's a tricky skill for a complete beginner to manage, so why make it more difficult for them? |
Surely a snowplough turn requires exactly the same balance on the outside ski. To convince youself do a snowplough turn, and as you are doing it pick up inside ski and put it by the other one. Do a parallel turn and do the reverse.
Snowplough is a fairly un-natural position (I really feel it after a day on the bunny slopes!). Though trying to convince a 3 year old that he does need some pizza with his french fries (fortunately it seems he does listen to his instructor, just not me ), he does demonstrates ably a progression straight into pivoting to turn and stop is not a hard skill to master.
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| stuarth wrote: |
| Surely a snowplough turn requires exactly the same balance on the outside ski. To convince youself do a snowplough turn, and as you are doing it pick up inside ski and put it by the other one. Do a parallel turn and do the reverse. |
Eventually, yes that's right. Which is why snowplough turns and parallel turns are two sides of the same coin rather than different techniques. But when a beginner first begins to snowplough they have their balance spread over both feet. Ask a beginner who is just getting to grips with the SP to pick up the inside ski and they might be able to manage it towards the end of the turn, and that would be impressive. No way they would be able to ski on one ski for the majority of the turn unless they were uncommonly talented.
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You know it makes sense.
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| stuarth wrote: |
| a progression straight into pivoting to turn and stop is not a hard skill to master. |
Is that a skill to master, or a bad habit to acquire? BTW, I thinking more of adults rather than young kids.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
She's still happiest on gentle blues and greens though
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It's possible that that will remain the case. I know quite a few people who have skied for many years and just want to stick to the easy slopes - and easy conditions. Quite happy to read a book, or potter with the coffee and cakes, for part of the holiday. Not everyone will be motivated to progress to harder runs. I am a competent "better than holiday" skier but I'm more than happy to leave the harder runs alone. There is one narrow, bumpy, black run here that I've never tried, and probably never will. We did one quite hard black run yesterday because it's the only escape route from a very difficult steep drag, and I wanted to suss it out. Usually it's unpisted, and I ski straight past the top, but yesterday was pisted, and looked OK, so we did it. There was an unpisted section at the bottom, oddly (the guy must have decided he needed to get home for his breakfast, three-quarters of the way down) and had I known that I'd not have done it. I "got down" it OK, didn't fall, didn't really get close to falling, but I skied the unpisted section very badly and would have enjoyed another run more and won't bother doing it again. It's not that I don't want to "challenge" myself but my challenge is to ski better on blue and red runs, not to seek out more challenging terrain - which is of the essence of the game for some people.
Maybe it's a girl thing.
Is it only in skiing that some people assume everyone is going to want to do more and more challenging stuff? I like walking, and I enjoy hill walking - within reason - but have no wish whatsoever to look at "scrambling", climbing or huge ascents. I enjoy gentle cycling, will do a bit of very easy "off road" but as for mountain biking - or on-road hill climbing - forget it! I am the cycling equivelent of a green and easy blue run skier.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I think you're right Pam, and I'm happy for my partner to ski whatever she wants to ski because its a holiday afterall. Its not all about adrenalin and the challenge for her, its more about enjoying the scenary, the fresh mountain air and the ambience. The only difference is that when faced with a run you'd rather avoid, sounds like if you have no choice you're able to tackle it. This is where I'd like my fiance to be- ski what she wants to ski but have the confidence/technique to get past the uncomfortable bit of the run when faced with it. Just so we have more terrain to ski together. She'll get there, I'm sure.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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dredgey, you could ask your girlfriend's instructor if there are similarly graded pistes that are reachable and doable for her. This may be a good way to get her to think outside of sticking only to the terrain she has covered with the instructor. Ask the day before, then check them out yourself before taking her to them "on the instructor's suggestion".
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Samerberg Sue wrote: |
| dredgey, you could ask your girlfriend's instructor if there are similarly graded pistes that are reachable and doable for her. This may be a good way to get her to think outside of sticking only to the terrain she has covered with the instructor. Ask the day before, then check them out yourself before taking her to them "on the instructor's suggestion". |
Thanks Sue, we've done a little bit of that and got them to mark the runs on a piste map. Has helped for sure.
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dredgey, Les Saisies is ideal confidence-building territory, she'll be fine.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| pam w wrote: |
| dredgey, Les Saisies is ideal confidence-building territory, she'll be fine. |
Thanks will check it out!
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If you start learn skiing with parallel skis (as i did) in the beginning, without guiding into this sport, then most probably you will own all basic mistakes that are hard to be fixed later. Then it could take years
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Appreciate am coming late to this party but:
in relation to the 'nervous newbie OH' side of this thread, it's probably quite difficult for most people on this forum to imagine how difficult some people find skiing. I was very keen to get my wife, who likes snow and mountains and walking and is no wimp, into skiing and fondly hoped that in her first week, with private tuition, we'd be skiing together at least on easy blue runs by the Tuesday or Wednesday. By the end of our second week (one in La Plagne; one in Tignes), a year later, after she'd had 20 or so hours of 1 to 1 private tuition with well-rated, British ski instructors, preceded by a 'learn to ski in a day' [ha ha] course at Tamworth, she was still struggling to get down the very easiest green runs in resort. I didn't really get to ski with her at all and had to accept that she is not and never will be a skier. Such people do exist; and it's not the end of the world if you find yourself married to one. I'm just forced to go skiing with mates instead.
One of the reasons she never took to skiing - which ties in with the OP - was she hated the snowplough. She found it the most uncomfortable, unnatural position to put her legs into and absolutely knackering. I wondered whether she would have been better off being taught the way I was - by a BASS instructor, within the last 10 years - without using snowplough at all. First lesson, he set me off down a wide, very gentle green and told me to lean on one leg and then the other. I turned. He also taught me to hockey stop. On our second lesson (1 to 1, 2 hours each) he taught me how to side-slip down a red - an easy one I now know even if, standing at the top at the time, it felt like I was about to jump off a cliff. It worked for me - not to make me a good skier or anything but to get down most things without killing myself or other people and to give me a base to work from. The only downside, with hindsight, was I found paths tough because I didn't have enough room to turn and could only manage them by letting myself go and then emergency stopping every 20 yards. The main upside was that when things got difficult, I didn't have the same tendency as many other beginner/intermediate skiers do, to revert to the tried and trusted snowplough.
I've had lots of lessons since. No instructor has ever said to me, "your problem is you've never properly learned to snowplough".
I can see why you teach kids to snowplough; but is it really necessary to teach adults in the same way? I have a number of skiing friends and acquaintances who have been skiing for years but who still ski in snowplough 90+% of the time. Having been taught to snowplough, they don't seem to be able to un-learn it.
Why unnecessarily teach something that has subsequently to be un-learned? And why teach all beginners in - essentially - the same way?
Some of the many instructors out there must at least have experimented with not teaching snowplough; with what results?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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kitren2005, they don't actually need to unlearn snowplough, they do need to learn how to ski parallel though and it's not going to happen quickly or well without instruction. There are times and places where a good bit of snowplough is very welcome. It's a tool in the skiing toolbox. Whether you necessarily need to learn it first is another matter. 
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I can see why you teach kids to snowplough; but is it really necessary to teach adults in the same way? I have a number of skiing friends and acquaintances who have been skiing for years but who still ski in snowplough 90+% of the time. Having been taught to snowplough, they don't seem to be able to un-learn it.
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The plough is a progression not an endpoint. If you cannot master the skills to ski with a good plough then you will be missing the vital pieces of the jigsaw that allow you to progress your skiing.
A basic plough glide introduces the ability to rotate your feet, developing the plough turns brings in rotational seperation and then feeling and managing pressure. All of these skills need to be mastered to become a competent skiier.
The progression may happen very quickly or painfully slowly depending of the skiier but you never 'throw away' anything you have learned.
Without the skills that the plough progression teaches then your skiing will be held back and you will not reach your potential.
Your friends that still ski in the plough do so because it is a safe and controlled way to ski for them and they feel comfortable to do so. They have not yet mastered the additional skills they require to move to parallel its not a case of un-learning the plough.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I have just read this bit again..
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The only downside, with hindsight, was I found paths tough because I didn't have enough room to turn and could only manage them by letting myself go and then emergency stopping every 20 yards. The main upside was that when things got difficult, I didn't have the same tendency as many other beginner/intermediate skiers do, to revert to the tried and trusted snowplough.
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Scares the Cr@p out of me 
Just makes me wonder what you do when things get difficult?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| kitren2005 wrote: |
| On our second lesson (1 to 1, 2 hours each) he taught me how to side-slip down a red - an easy one I now know even if, standing at the top at the time, it felt like I was about to jump off a cliff. |
You have reminded me. About day 3 of my skiing career, towards the end of the afternoon, I was led down a foul slope by people who should have known better. Icy, steep and horrid. I ended up side-slipping down the whole thing, very uncomfortable, hard work and scary - a real blow to confidence. (I think it was supposed to be blue; I have no doubt that these days I wouldn't even notice it.)
The following morning's lesson I asked the instructor to start again somewhere very easy. But interestingly all that side slipping had made a big difference to my skiing.
An under-taught skill, perhaps?
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You know it makes sense.
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Our (French UCPA) instructor took us down a short steep (or so it seemed at the time) part of a red on our 3rd day on snow just to teach us the side-slipping thing. Have to say it was invaluable.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Just re-visiting this thread. I've been having cross country lessons this week, having done a course about 8 years ago, and just never managed to snowplough (I don't snowplough a lot on downhill skis, but seem to be able to do it when necessary, on paths etc). it's hugely more difficult on skinny skis with no edges and free heels.
I was really quite worried about how I would get down even quite gentle descents but our instructor has concentrated on "pas tournant" (sorry, it's a French class and I have no idea what that is in English - step turn I suppose) initially just stepping in and out of the tracks, and now - day 3 - on very gentle slopes, round slalom poles. And on a rather steeper, longer, descent (this is relative - it was the sort of slope I'd scarcely notice on downhill skis) we did kind of snowplough turns - encouraged to go fairly quick, and not make too much of a meal of it.
It helped that the snow was simply perfect - very, very, easy conditions and I have new, easier, old-lady skis not as long as the ones I rented some years back.
We will, I suspect, be doing a full, straight, snowplough down a steeper slope tomorrow. I'm not looking forward to that and suspect I still won't be able to do it, but armed with the techniques I now have, I feel confident that I can manage easy bits, provided the snow is kind (skinny skis with no edges are a nightmare on icy slopes, however gentle).
So for me, a progression this week which didn't start with snowplough has been much better than the course I did 8 years ago. And unlike downhill skiing, it's perfectly OK with XC skis to take them off and walk down steeper bits - a dangerous thing to do on steep alpine slopes.
A succession of snowplough turns is so much easier than snowploughing straight down a slope - perhaps that's what so many people have struggled with? When you see piste rescuers snowploughing in perfect control straight down a steep red slope with a casualty in a sledge behind them, you can only marvel (and appreciate the musculature ) It's a very advanced skill.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I did try to side slip a bit this morning, but it didn't work, probably because the skis have no edges to grip the snow. I have seen lots of ESF instructors 1:1 with kids recently, doing a lot of side-slipping; it's certainly not neglected in their repertoire.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It's funny, I've never had any pain doing snowploughs, not even if I'm sitting right back. Is this because I have quite loose hips?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| pam w wrote: |
I was really quite worried about how I would get down even quite gentle descents but our instructor has concentrated on "pas tournant" (sorry, it's a French class and I have no idea what that is in English - step turn I suppose) initially just stepping in and out of the tracks, and now - day 3 - on very gentle slopes, round slalom poles. And on a rather steeper, longer, descent (this is relative - it was the sort of slope I'd scarcely notice on downhill skis) we did kind of snowplough turns - encouraged to go fairly quick, and not make too much of a meal of it.
It helped that the snow was simply perfect - very, very, easy conditions and I have new, easier, old-lady skis not as long as the ones I rented some years back.
We will, I suspect, be doing a full, straight, snowplough down a steeper slope tomorrow. I'm not looking forward to that and suspect I still won't be able to do it, but armed with the techniques I now have, I feel confident that I can manage easy bits, provided the snow is kind (skinny skis with no edges are a nightmare on icy slopes, however gentle). |
Something I intend to try this year is to take the XC skis to the DH slopes to have a practice with more space. However, on trails I find the trouble is there's not always the room on XC trails to do the easier zigzag descent so I have to snowplough straight down the slope. Indeed there often wasn't even room for a full snowplough but only the half snowplough with one foot still in the track. Of course the more experience ones just zoomed down the slope but I was pleased I could slow down using a snowplough.
| pam w wrote: |
| And unlike downhill skiing, it's perfectly OK with XC skis to take them off and walk down steeper bits - a dangerous thing to do on steep alpine slopes. . |
depends where you are perhaps? Where we go (Finland) it's "forbidden" to walk on the XC tracks. Dunno how they'd know though
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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peura, I can do a moderately successful "half snowplough" with one ski in the track, the other braking. But on our slopes, where it's too steep to stay in the tracks, they always disappear - so that technique is useful only for gentle descents. It is forbidden for pedestrians to walk in the cross country area but when inexperienced skiers walk down steep bits, provided they stay on the edge and don't mess things up, blind eyes are turned! I was thinking it was "OK" from a self-preservation point of view, rather than the rules. I would mess up the trail a lot more trying to ski down, crashing and making a damn great hole in the track.
Our XC area is very good - there is always a wide piste alongside the tracks, for skaters, so normally there should be enough room - not that I've done any of the black bits!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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rob@rar, Agree with your sentiments regarding the SnowPlough - reaching Vallon D'arby, Verbier or even the long blue, les Cascadesat Flaine to Sixt would be virtually impossible without using a snowplough to brake. moving onto Side Slipping: My feeling is that skiing is pretty hard without perfecting the basics of fast side-slipping as part of my skill set. I always use it to establish and confirm balance and setup, which for me was even more critical when recently using a Ski-Mojo for the first time. It doesn't seem to get much attention from instructors/coaches and I'm wondering why? 
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| Quote: |
into the un-pisted stuff after failing to make a turn
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yes, I've done those too!
Jivebaby, how are you finding the Ski-Mojo? My OH finds it helps him a lot but he finds it a big faff to put on. Needs more practice, probably.
As I said above, the ESF instructors here seem quite fixated on side-slipping. I heard one the other day, with two little English kids in a private lesson. He had the big sister doing it, and was getting little brother to follow suit - I always like seeing kids being taught to side-slip. Can't imagine surviving without it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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pam w, I posted a personal experience review in the main Ski-Mojo topic: http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=1969319&highlight=mojo#1969319
I met with Martin Hannaford the designer/manufacturer last week briefly so I feel that from a product viewpoint my knowledge is as good as most fitters. For piste work/skiing the Mojo is fantastic and I managed Mont Fort with it too. Arriving home and nursing my knee, I'm pretty sure I have another medial meniscus tear from the fall the week before. So to ski in Verbier with a torn meniscus is IMO an outstanding testimony to natural and very effective support it provides. I've decided to speed up the diagnosis by returning to France next week and I should complete the preliminary diagnosis, x-ray and MRI together with a written diagnosis within 48 hours. This will shave two months or so off the op process, and perchance if I'm wrong, possibly speed my recovery anyway. Sadly this would my third tear, so I'm not optimistic about my chances 
Does your OH have the new one or the original Mk 1 - I've a feeling that the newer model which I have is easier to put on and my routine developed to a checking of rod tightness, strapping on, stepping into trousers/salopettes but leaving the lower rod insertion into the boot clip until I reach the final "sit-down" opportunity, preferably at the top of a gondola. I'm really quite excited that it could help me extend my skiing life. The other challenge is to discern how it's use affects or is affected by my own strength/stamina. I've found that I tire very quickly quickly after lunch tot he extent I'd rather not stop. Whether this is down to muscle fatigue, lactic acid or me I don't know and would be interested to hear if this a common issue?
I'm keen to see Rob@rar's response, but glad to hear it has some credibility somewhere!
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am just revisiting. I think some people may have missed my point. I'm not saying the snowplough isn't a useful tool - as a [now] moderately advanced intermediate, I do ocassionally use it, something I never did when I was a beginner/intermediate. For example, the first time I was taken [by an instructor] down the Grand Coulouir above Courchevel, I followed my instructor's orders to snowplough I've never been taught it, though - it isn't a difficult thing to pick up. What I'm querying is teaching everyone to ski using a snowplough turn. What has to be un-learned isn't the snowplough, it's turning using a snowplough turn as a default. And I'm wondering whether if they hadn't been taught in this way, the people I know who have skied for years but always snowplough in anything other than the most benign conditions would find it as hard to progress from snowplough to parallel turns as they seem to.
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FAQ
He's off with a pal to ADH in 6 weeks to spend a week in the park. 
