 Poster: A snowHead
|
I am interested to learn the views from others but my experience tells me the number of piste users turning up at the skiing resorts is declining.
This may be clouded by my own circumstance as in the frist place I no longer ski during the peak season or the mid term breaks. Secondly I would go to France only as the last resort. Thus for years I have not run into crowds and queues.
However judging from the visitors to the slopes on both sides of the pond I got the feeling that there are many negative points putting people off the winter sport. Among them are :
(1) Many piste users are put off by the ever increasing cost of fuel in the transportation, the accommodations and the ski passes.
(2) The pressure at work nowadays makes planning ahead a skiing holiday difficult.
(3) The gradual decline of the exchange rates for the UK skiers/boarders.
(4) The environmental considerations are not in favour of the skiing sport.
(5) The global warming effect has led to less snow on many existing facilities.
Haven’t heard any new natural skiing resort created apart from the artificial fridge-type like the one in Dubai.
Over the years I witness the decline of many resorts. Some of them are clearly struggling, especially those in Scotland. This is a far cry from may be 8 years ago when the road to Glenshee had to closed off after 10am on Saturday because the car park ran out of space.
I am about to embark my next rip in a couple of days so have been monitoring the various Swiss and Italian resorts I am going this year. There has been lack of snow before the Christmas so the situation was dire, to the point a thread say this year could be a write off for many resorts. During Christmas there had been some heavy snow and most of the Alpine resorts have decent snow cover now. However everywhere looks pretty deserted with the facilities clearly under-utilised. If the situation continues it is only a matter of time some resorts may have to call it a day.
This cannot be good news for those who own properties in the Alps. I wonder what would be their views. Have the skiing market progressively shrunk under our nose?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
The thread saying this season was a write off was a blatant troll, the author knew full well that wasn't the case...
1), 2), and 3): Swings and roundabouts, when the economy picks up more people will go skiing again. Simple.
Skiier numbers in Scotland have been picking up in recent years too. Perhaps because less Brits want/can afford to go abroad.
New resorts are not really likely since there is already saturation and 4) most mountain areas now have heavy protection against new development.
5) Dubious really. There are good years and bad years. Global warming is an outdated term anyway.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Oh also there are new resorts popping up in China since that's where the new money is these days.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| saikee wrote: |
(1) Many piste users are put off by the ever increasing cost of fuel in the transportation, the accommodations and the ski passes.
(2) The pressure at work nowadays makes planning ahead a skiing holiday difficult.
(3) The gradual decline of the exchange rates for the UK skiers/boarders.
(4) The environmental considerations are not in favour of the skiing sport.
(5) The global warming effect has led to less snow on many existing facilities. |
1) It has been a remarkably cheap 10 years or so, as far as travel costs go, thanks to the sudden rise of budget airlines. It wasn't really going to last forever, but ski resorts did exist and appear to prosper before cheap air travel. I don't know what sort of margins resorts operate on, but I'll bet if visitor numbers decline then the cost of accomodation and uplift will decrease.
2) Same as it ever was.
3) The Sterling has been recovering quite reasonably over the last 6 months or so. Euro is still strong, but the dollar is back to the same exchange rate it was a few years back.
4) This only really matters to a minority of people; everyone else is pretty selfish after all!
5) Recent global weather patterns have been unfavourable for some regions some of the time. Whether the change in conditions over the last 10 years or so is abnormal is unknown. Poor weather in the short term will inevitably lead to alarmism; good weather to overenthusiasm.
It is interesting that you haven't considered recent global economic issues.
Edit: and whilst I remember it, consider that all else being equal, Scottish resorts will have a pretty hard time competing directly with Alpine resorts. When the cost of accomodation and transport is more or less the same for many punters, where do you suppose they'll choose to go? If the cost of those holidays in the Alps rises enough, where do you think they'll consider instead?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Global financial crisis means not so many people can afford to go on holiday at present. Maybe less of an issue for daytrippers who live within driving distances of the mountains. If this situation ever resolves I'm sure the travel industry will recover as well.
Plus I wouldn't say the cost of a ski holiday is 'ever-increasing'. It's been roughly the same for me every year since 2006.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| saikee wrote: |
(1) Many piste users are put off by the ever increasing cost of fuel in the transportation, the accommodations and the ski passes.
(2) The pressure at work nowadays makes planning ahead a skiing holiday difficult.
(3) The gradual decline of the exchange rates for the UK skiers/boarders.
(4) The environmental considerations are not in favour of the skiing sport.
(5) The global warming effect has led to less snow on many existing facilities.
|
1/ Rubbish, its as expensive as you want to make it, we're taking a car of four over to Sauze'd oulx for two weeks and including a large SC appartment over the half term its setting me back around 1k including fuel, tunnel, overnight etc.
1a/ I still think passes are a repesentation of the effort that goes into maintaining and keeping the mountain a safe place to play.
2/ Rubbish, quite the opposite I think. Most people like to know in advance so they can budget. I for one like to know when my staff are away so I can plan onstallations around them.
3/ See item 1.
4/ I doubt the carbon footprint of the ski industry can be any larger of an impact than any other seasonal occurance. How much aviation fuel is used to transport half the council estates of Birmingham to Spain every summer?
5/ Global warming doesn't necissarily mean that it gets warmer.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| queen bodecia wrote: |
Global financial crisis means not so many people can afford to go on holiday at present. Maybe less of an issue for daytrippers who live within driving distances of the mountains. If this situation ever resolves I'm sure the travel industry will recover as well.
Plus I wouldn't say the cost of a ski holiday is 'ever-increasing'. It's been roughly the same for me every year since 2006. |
Our family holidays have got cheaper if anything. The typical christmas week has increased though because thats the week we spend skiing with my parents who like a litte refinement nowadays.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The impact on a consumer level of the global economic crisis is I think the biggest driver of downturn in the ski businesses. It's never been a cheap sport but to a family who is experiencing wage/earning stagnation with high increases in cost of living etc I can see why ski hols fall off the list.
And lots of the US is seriously screwed this year - heading into their 3rd of 4 significant holiday weekends with little to no natural snowfall to date, resorts laying on soup kitchens for the employees they have no shifts for to stop them leaving town completely etc. I'd expect a few resorts to go under or change hands without marginal revenue.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
total nonsense!
In verbier they had all time record numbers of people over Xmas/New year on the pistes, according to televerbier...and this is in switzerland where the strong CHF makes it currently more expensive to EU visitors than it traditionally is...
Building & development in verbier and surrounding 4 valleys areas like la tzoumaz, nendaz, les collons continues apace, no sign of any slowdown here, new chalets / lifts etc are still being built.
Most main resorts now have outstanding snow making capabilities eg verbier last year when despite no snow from late Dec to late feb they kept everything running fine.
I believe the opposite to the OP, that with increasing work pressures and the hassle of city living, then more and more people want to escape for their well earned holidays for some healthy activity in areas of natural beauty, ie the mountains...then there is also huge publicity now for "extreme" and outdoor sports, promoting skiing as a cool thing to do for the young freerider types.
OK the future may be tough for some of the old low lying resorts, and for any businesses who are not fully up to date with tjheir marketing techniques, but that is more due to the global competition from canada, japan, US as well as the big mega resorts in europe, and not due to a reduced demand...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
Tignes was 0.5% up in total numbers last year. The resort is still the same size in the winter as it ever was - the glacier is a bit smaller in terms of skiing area in the summer. Still building going on - including embryonic plans for a 5 star hotel and a new congress centre finished next summer. Glad I bought 5 years ago - money safe (unless the pund strengthens hugely against the euro/new franc when I come to sell - by which stage I won't care.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| Quote: |
Most main resorts now have outstanding snow making capabilities eg verbier last year when despite no snow from late Dec to late feb they kept everything running fine.
|
Were you in verbier last year? We stayed in La Tzoumaz and the run down to Verbier was closed most of the week we were there due to lack of snow (didn't stop us from using it to access Verbier, but then I'm a Scottish skier so used to skiing/dodging heather, rocks and on the road section, large areas of tarmac).
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
yes I was, agree the carrefour run was a bit thin (!) and that route does not have snow making, but the main pistes on both the verbier and tzoumaz sides were surprisingly reasonable considering there was so little snow. But note they are putting in a new lift this summer from carrefour to croix de coeur which will reduce reliance on that track, this has been long awaited and I believe is finally confirmed
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
Interesting…
I recall being stood at the baggage carousel of Turin airport with my Father and younger brother a couple of years ago, and the old boy (who has been skiing since ’72) remarked that, on a whole plane load of people out of Manchester, myself and my brother were amongst 5 or 6 that were obviously in our twenties, with everyone else being children paid for by parents, or older groups. His point was – that right through the 80’s and 90’s, the majority of people would be mid twenties.
Speaking as a pretty typical 30yo (graduate, average income, home owner etc…), I would say the vast majority of my friends simply cannot afford to ski – I sacrifice a huge amount to get away at least twice a year, and these are sacrifices that the majority of people I know, cannot afford to make. I’m not sure what the average age of posters on here is, and what income bracket they fall into, but ‘Homer’s Double’ suggesting that “about 1k” isn’t a lot of money, suggests a detachment from the fiscal reality a lot of us face. Yes - £1k is an absolute bargain for 2 weeks skiing the Via Lattea – but it’s still £1,000 that most people I know just can’t spare.
Whereas a few years ago, a ski holiday may have been something that people would ‘have a bash at’ to see if they liked it or not, I just don’t think they now have the money to do so, henceforth – less ‘new blood’ each year.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
The snow on the Tzoumaz side was good, and most of the runs above verbier were fine. The itineraires were interestingly thin, better after the couple of snow falls that we had during the week we were there. The snow falls improved the Carrefour run (hiding the tarmac for at least a day). I'd have thought snowmaking on the slope down from Tzoumaz to verbier would be a better bet. I don't like down loading on lifts if i can avoid it. If we hadn't taken the (closed) Carrfour run we'd have had to download on the bubble, take a bus and then a drag (I think) to get to the same place.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
I think the number of skiers from the UK has shown a long term decline. Not sure how this affects total number of skiers in European resorts, but I guess that the growth of skier numbers from Eastern Europe might well compensate for declining numbers from other countries? The number of small resorts which have completely withdrawn from the ski business seems relative low, especially in terms of skier-days/season (I can think of two or three I've heard about). I can't say that I've noticed any significant change in terms of how busy resorts are (either more busy or less) when I've gone skiing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Totally agree with LukeRibs. I'm 32 and I only know one other person a similar age/background to me who can also afford to go on regular ski/snowboard holidays. The cost is just so much compared to other holidays and most people I know aren't inclined to take so much holiday so early in the year. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be a skier if it wasn't for my boyfriend getting me into it.
I also wonder if the increase in indoor ski slopes has changed peoples attitudes so that there is no need to go away for a whole week to see if you like skiing, you can just have a go in the sludge at chill factore or wherever.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
I personally find I spend to what I have... i.e., I always have no money at the end of the month regardless of what I've done!!
I'm 23 and my 1 skiing holiday this year won't have a massive impact. Obviously having an extra £600 (or so...) would be nice, but it's all about priorities really... My brother is a student with no discernable income and still somehow has a downhill mountain bike that would be several thousand pounds at retail.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| sophster wrote: |
| I also wonder if the increase in indoor ski slopes has changed peoples attitudes so that there is no need to go away for a whole week to see if you like skiing, you can just have a go in the sludge at chill factore or wherever. |
I think that's ruining it for a lot of people... Even if the sensation is roughly the same on the snow, a huge part of skiing and I reckon the reason a lot of people get hooked is simply being in the mountains.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| LukeRibs wrote: |
Interesting…
but ‘Homer’s Double’ suggesting that “about 1k” isn’t a lot of money, suggests a detachment from the fiscal reality a lot of us face. Yes - £1k is an absolute bargain for 2 weeks skiing the Via Lattea – but it’s still £1,000 that most people I know just can’t spare.
|
No, Homers Double didn't suggest 1k isn't a lot of money, what he said was that he'd managed to get himself, three others and a car to Sauze for two weeks. If he can, then so can you.*
I suggest we give this "Homers Double" chap a medal for his services to quality budgeting.
And as for needing a reality check, you have no idea about me, my situation or my grasp on said reality.
*assuming you have 1k in the first place.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| bobmcstuff wrote: |
I personally find I spend to what I have... i.e., I always have no money at the end of the month regardless of what I've done!!
I'm 23 and my 1 skiing holiday this year won't have a massive impact. Obviously having an extra £600 (or so...) would be nice, but it's all about priorities really... My brother is a student with no discernable income and still somehow has a downhill mountain bike that would be several thousand pounds at retail. |
That's paid for by his midget allowance though, yes?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I was in Scotland at the weekend and Glenshee seemed really busy on the Saturday!
People going to Scotland for a weeks holiday over the Alps just isn’t a comparable situation, but driving up to Scotland if you live within striking distance allows you to have 2 full days skiing for zero days holiday which is not achievable going to the Alps unless you live in London and go to Cham or Morzine.
I'm not sure the total number of skiers is declining, and neither can any of you guys be without actual data. On an anecdotal note more and more of my friends are learning to ski and snowboard (mid twenties to mid thirties) so around me if feels like the skiing population is booming! However most of my friends have above average earnings and no kids which helps.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| homers double wrote: |
| bobmcstuff wrote: |
I personally find I spend to what I have... i.e., I always have no money at the end of the month regardless of what I've done!!
I'm 23 and my 1 skiing holiday this year won't have a massive impact. Obviously having an extra £600 (or so...) would be nice, but it's all about priorities really... My brother is a student with no discernable income and still somehow has a downhill mountain bike that would be several thousand pounds at retail. |
That's paid for by his midget allowance though, yes? |
Yeah, he just buys the really tiny frames that are going cheap cos no-one normal sized wants them...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Homers double - I think you've jumped the gun there, and been quick to take offence where none was intended, I simply meant to highlight the fact that whilst I agree that £1k is a great deal - even at that price it's just not affordable - something you also recognised with the caveat to your last post. I'm sure your grasp on reality is both firm and well balanced. Enjoy Sauze - if you're there in Feb March we may even bump into one another !
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
However everywhere looks pretty deserted with the facilities clearly under-utilised.
|
I think that's always been true of mid-January, that's why it's such a fantastic time to ski! I have no idea of the wider picture but during last year's very poor season our area (Les Saisies) reported increased numbers, but possibly that was because a lot of places had little or no snow - it might not be an actual increase in people skiing.
The area where our apartment is affected very little by the number of Brits going on ski holidays - though English voices are more in evidence, year on year. There is a lot of building going on - mostly rather upmarket-looking private chalets, often being artisan-built, beautiful wooden buildings. The new apartment blocks are all upmarket too; industrial building (concrete clad in wood to look more "authentic"  ) but now all with pools etc. The area seems quite affluent, and busy in the summer season too. Big investment in ski lifts each year, too. For the present, there is certainly no sign of a wider downturn though obviously there will be some significant lags before the effects of the current recession feed through.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
I find the whole skiing is expensive argument rather odd, highlighted when I heard some years ago that someone had spent £3,600 on a season ticket to watch overpaid grown men running around on a patch of grass chasing a leather ball, in the rain.
That, then, was 36 days all in of me having fun in the mountains. No comparison really.
Back to the OP, no I don't see numbers declining at all. Check out the compagnie des Alpes reports if you want more data.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
under a new name, amen to that.
As I said, it's all about priorities... I put my week skiing at the top of my spending list and everything else will be worked around that.
If I stopped drinking for a year I would be able to afford another week or so on the snow which is rather worrying.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I've been skiing every weekend this season so far in different places, and many places have been really really busy..how much this was down to lack of snow. in other places early on, i don't know.. but if less brits are going sking then plenty more dutch, polish, czech, romainian and germans seem to be hitting the slopes in there place.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| under a new name wrote: |
I find the whole skiing is expensive argument rather odd, highlighted when I heard some years ago that someone had spent £3,600 on a season ticket to watch overpaid grown men running around on a patch of grass chasing a leather ball, in the rain.
. |
Must have been a box - £200 a match is steep even for Chelski shirley?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Wonder if there's any reasoning behind thinking that those singles and couples who were racing off to hit the slopes 5-10 years ago are now spriogged up (like me) so that has pushed snow holidays down the list of priorities? Obviously time has to be found, which isn't as easy when you have kids, and money to pay for several bodies instead of just yourself (and the other half) may be in shorter supply.
Holiday prices don't seem any cheaper or expensive than a few years ago (apart from the Euro being better value five years ago for food and drink) but when the cost of the holiday doubles/triples/quadruples it's much easier to just go on a sun holiday where kids go free and you don't need a £200 pass to access the beach....  .
Just a thought....
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Specialman wrote: |
| Wonder if there's any reasoning behind thinking that those singles and couples who were racing off to hit the slopes 5-10 years ago are now spriogged up (like me) .... |
Remember those people who were 5-10 years younger than you 5-10 years ago, well they're now the age as you were then and have taken up your place.
The reverse also applies i now enjoy 3 separate weeks a year, family commitments and the financial constraints of paying for 4 people to go skiing instead of 1 or 2 meant I could not possibly do this only a few years ago.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| bobmcstuff wrote: |
As I said, it's all about priorities... I put my week skiing at the top of my spending list and everything else will be worked around that.
|
Good answer...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Although the numbers of Brits going to our resort (Arc1950) has declined faster than the overall British ski market decline (which has been substantial), the actual visitor numbers and bed-nights has increased, being bolstered by new money coming from the Eastern bloc, as well as Euro countries not impacted by an FX rate.
Generally occupancy levels are high ( >95%) through the'high season' ( well, the TOs and hoteliers do actually know when demand will sustain the higher prices, hence not surprising), and marginally higher this year than last, and those were an improvement over the previous year.
And even the lowest of the low season weeks (for example 3rd week in Jan) is currently showing 66% rooms booked: and that's still a week or so away, historical evidence indicates that those numbers will rise come the actual dates with late bookings.
I suppose a more interesting year on year comparison would be revpar (revenue per available room-night), but that's difficult to uncover - its a closely guarded commercial secret!
But no, from my experience actual visitor numbers are not decreasing, just the originating countries are changing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Arctic Roll,
The information that only the UK skiers shedding in number is interesting. Some reported they had switched to Scotland.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
The Crystal Ski Industry Report showed that the UK market fell by 23% over two years from 09/10 to 10/11 seasons and, despite current snow conditions, I reckon it's done no better than level out. That's a 23% decline in trips not individuals. I suspect that many second and third trips got canned. I can't imagine that many other nations haven't seen similar declines. You may not notice it though as most of us go to popular places at popular times. Smaller resorts in low season are like ghost towns these days, more so than ever. The St Antons, Verbiers and Val D'Iseres of this world are always busy and raking in the cash but the 2nd division will be hurting. Only upward trend for Europe is probably the Russian market but it'll never make up for less Dutch, Brits, Germans etc.
On my trip at New Year I was struck by how few familes there were - vast majority of the Brits I saw were 30 - 60 singles and couples. Let's face it, with family budgets being squeezed, it's no wonder that the ski hol has to give.
saikee, I think Scotland has done well thanks to that one magic ingredient called snow. Basically more people going more often but as the ski travel market is still skewed towards London & SE heading south, I doubt Scotland's increases have anything to do with less travel to the alps.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Clearly the economy is the major factor here.
In terms of demographics most resorts are full of student groups, young people pre-sprogs, then relatively few families can afford to ski whilst the sprogs are really young.
People tend to come back to skiing when the kids are a bit older and it becomes a family friendly holiday for older kids. There will always be a lack of thirty somethings at resorts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
According to Peter Hardy in the Telegraph today (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/snowandski/9006670/Skiing-Is-this-the-best-ski-season-ever.html) "The number of skiers from Britain who annually take a ski holiday peaked at 1.4 million at the turn of the century, but by the end of last winter it had shrunk to barely 900,000".
Now I've retired I can ski off-season and in real terms spend less than I used to. The global economy is clearly a significant factor and sadly my uninformed opinion is that it is going to get worse before it gets better.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
welshskier, He's talking about trips not skiers. Some people on this forum take 4 / 5 / 6 trips per season, others just the one.
Demographics are playing a part too. As our population gets older, many of those who joined the market in the boom of the 70s and 80s (especially via school trips) are now dropping off.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| ... especially via school trips... |
Good point. The old school trip used to be a good introduction to skiing and snowsports. I remember them happening even at my old comprehensive, although I never went myself. Do they still happen?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
| Do they still happen? |
Yes, although not as widely as the 70s and 80s. My first trip was with my school in 1979, and I've skied at least once every year since. Far from dropping away from skiing as Bode Swiller observes, I'm only now feeling like I'm getting in to my stride
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
