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Booked my first off-piste course - now for some advice

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I've had a far amount of tuition over the last couple of years and I'm happy to say that my piste skiing has come on leaps and bounds. Whilst there's plenty of work still to be done on my technique, I thought I'd be brave, take the plunge and book myself onto an off-piste introduction course in Val D'Isere at the end of January. (I say brave, as I've virtually no experience skiing off-piste).

So I'm after a bit of advice:

I've been skiing a pair of Salomons X-Wings (about 75mm under foot) for the last few years, which have suited my skiing fine so far. However, would I be better off leaving these at home a hiring a pair of skis out there that better suit to conditions - or should I stick with them?

Also, are there any top-tips for my off-piste adventure? Even simple stuff like make sure you pack a 'x-y-z' in your backpack would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance!
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
abj, I'd say take your X-Wings and see how you get on with them, but perhaps hire a pair of something a bit fatter for a couple of days - maybe 90mm or so - while you are there to see what differences you can feel.

Do you know if avalanche safety kit (transceiver, shovel and probe) is provided by your ski school for this course? That's the only essential kit that you should have with you. Beyond that I'd say take a water bottle and maybe a snack or two as your first forays in to the off-piste can be a bit harder work than piste skiing, and you might get off the beaten track enough to not be near a convenient mountain restaurant. Other than that you should expect your instructor to either have any essential kit him/herself, or to tell you what's required (probably nothing special on an intro to off-piste course).
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I'd also say don't dress too warm...or even better have the means to add/remove a layer (and store it of course). Just in case the pow is deep and you fall a few times - it can be tiring and very hot to get up.

rob@rar, as a beginner, would he need the shovel and probe or just the transceiver?

Bottle of water (and a snack or two) seconded.
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horizon wrote:
rob@rar, as a beginner, would he need the shovel and probe or just the transceiver?
"Need" is a tricky word in this context. As a matter of skier etiquette I think that if you wear a transceiver (and therefore you are expecting other people to dig you out) you should also carry a shovel and probe. IMHO you should carry all three or none at all.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
rob@rar wrote:
horizon wrote:
rob@rar, as a beginner, would he need the shovel and probe or just the transceiver?
"Need" is a tricky word in this context. As a matter of skier etiquette I think that if you wear a transceiver (and therefore you are expecting other people to dig you out) you should also carry a shovel and probe. IMHO you should carry all three or none at all.


Agreed, you don't need to be an expert to help to shovel !
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You'll need to Register first of course.
Don't feel silly when you fall over. It's a new skiing enviroment and it will take time to become proficient. In anycase it's nice and soft!

Don't always blame your equipment - if you're struggling then it's more than likely your technique. Be patient. The solution is not always a new pair of skis.

If you lose a ski or pole: use your other ski as a tool to search with.

Do not go under ropes into closed areas. It will be closed for a very good reason and you could be endangering yourself and others.

If you fall over: to help yourself get up - form a X with your ski poles in the snow and push up on the X.

Snow conditions can change from day to day and from the morning to afternoon. Different conditions will require slightly different techniques to ski well. Some days you feel as though you are getting the hang of it, the next day you are struggling. You have not necessarily become a worse skier overnight(although you may be tired) but the conditions may have changed and what worked well yesterday might not be so useful today.

Enjoy yourself! It's years of fun!


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 9-01-12 21:10; edited 1 time in total
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Elston wrote:
If you fall over: to help yourself get up - form a X with your ski poles in the snow and push up on the X.
Top tip!

If you're having trouble putting a ski back on while you are in deep snow you can make the task a bit easier by sticking the tail of the ski in to the snow so the binding is clear, but the ski won't sink when you try to insert your boot. The angle can be a bit awkward, but it is much easier than fighting with a ski which twists or sinks in to the snow every time you try to click in to the binding.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
abj, if there's any soft snow, hire some rockered skis. You'll have more fun.
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abj, If it's a private course, then you must pay for the instructor's meal. It's a tradition. Does that sound too cliched? Toofy Grin
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Patch wrote:
you don't need to be an expert to help to shovel !


http://youtube.com/v/zxMXX6b13L0
Hmmm, you might want to reconsider that statement...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
horizon wrote:
rob@rar, as a beginner, would he need the shovel and probe or just the transceiver?

Anyone turning up to ski with me off-piste with a transceiver, but without a shovel gets to carry mine wink
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I personally agree that if you are going to ski off-piste you should carry the kit and know how to use it. Personally, I don't find it morally acceptible that if the guide gets buried, no one is equipped to get him out.

That said, when I was first skiing off-piste with a guide or an instructor I was always handed a bleep but never given probes and a shovel... I think they figure that unless you are well practised you are going to be pretty useless anyway.

J
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I'll accept the views of rob@rar and FlyingStantoni, but I will confess that, just like jedster, on my very first proper offpiste forays the guide gave me a transceiver and that was that.

Of course, when it's a group of friends, shove and probe should be mandatory for everyone.

I had a weirder experience when I booked a half-day with a French ESF instructor in Portes Du Soleil a few years ago, specifically to ski offpiste. He turned up with a transceiver but without a backpack, hence of course no shovel/probe. We skied Vallée de la Manche for our last run, and when I asked about his equipment he just said "ah, I lent it to my brother today, but ze risk is low now". I confess that I stuck to the most conservative aspects I could find.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Off-piste with just a beeper is a bit like recco gear in jackets etc. - it'll help them find the body wink
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:

Patch wrote:
you don't need to be an expert to help to shovel !



You can help by clearing the snow the more expert diggers have removed already, if its an introduction course then usually the first half day is all about avi rescue rather than skiing.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
If you are booked on a course then I would expect them to provide the safety gear.

I would definitely get some fatter skis - it makes a big difference. Hire some or borrow some - minimum 90mm underfoot - 75mm is skinny these days and you don't want to be the only one struggling to perfect technique on skinnies !
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
More words on strategic shoveling:

http://www.itrsonline.org/PapersFolder/2007/Edgerly-Atkins2007_ITRSPaper.pdf

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B6QMdxLQ2UK-NmY5ZDljNmYtMGMxYS00ZThhLWJmNjAtYWQxNGEwYTFlMzA1&sort=name&layout=list&pid=0B6QMdxLQ2UK-MGRkMWFkMWMtMGY2ZC00MjA4LTgyNjctNmZiMzFlNDRjMGJj&cindex=1
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Thanks for the advice guys.

Tips on how to extract myself from deep snow after my inevitable falls have been duly noted!

All the safety gear is being supplied by the ski school, so I should be covered on that front (mental note: must remember to put my on rucksack each morning in order to be able to carry it!).

On the skis front, I'll pack my skis and will play it by ear. If there's heaps of fresh snow I might hire a pair of fatter skis and see how they feel.
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Oh, and this video should but you in the right frame of mind!


http://youtube.com/v/6C2eWRvZgKU
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
horizon wrote:
Of course, when it's a group of friends, shove and probe should be mandatory for everyone.


Since no one noticed it, I'll quote myself Laughing


Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Tue 10-01-12 13:46; edited 1 time in total
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EDIT: double post
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I thought that an introduction to off-piste course would make use of terrain just to the edge of a piste but still within the confines of the resort? Is all the avi rescue kit really necessary? Although I can understand that if you already have the kit then you might as well use it.

NB: I don't have any avi gear and at the moment I don't know how to use it either. (of course this will change before I get a bit more adventurous)
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
horizon, Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

Elston, The age old question "when is off piste off piste" many people say that if your only a few metres off the side of the piste then your fine, I have always said "there is no such thing as a little bit of off piste" Toofy Grin Toofy Grin
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Elston wrote:
I thought that an introduction to off-piste course would make use of terrain just to the edge of a piste but still within the confines of the resort? Is all the avi rescue kit really necessary?

You're making an assumption that the off-piste to the side of a run / between runs is safe. It isn't.

If you go to a Henry's Avalanche Talk he shows a picture of an avalanche between pistes that triggered on a slope that had been skied all day before it went.

It's often said that skiing off-piste in Europe is binary, like pregnancy.

That said, in truth you'd be really unlucky to get caught in such an avalanche if you're sensible and keep to lower angle slopes, only do it when the avalanche risk is relatively lower and don't duck lines to closed runs.

Frankly, I ski off-piste like this a lot more than I should without kit. It's something I'm trying to be better about.
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livetoski wrote:


Elston, The age old question "when is off piste off piste"


Sometimes(and these are the very best times) you cannot tell because it snowed so hard!
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livetoski wrote:
I have always said "there is no such thing as a little bit of off piste"


We've done this lots and of course it's kinda right but really comes down to the circumstances. IMV if you can clearly analyse and explain why something "just off the side" or between pistes is pretty safe then I think you're in different territory to blundering into the unknown. And just because there is generally little objective hazard in a zone it doesn't mean there won't be local hazards to deal with like a loaded rollover.

Having said that I've just been somewhere where very experienced offpiste skiers and boarders seemed to be making nutty decisions. Powder frenzy is indeed a strange affliction.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
fatbob wrote:
livetoski wrote:
I have always said "there is no such thing as a little bit of off piste"


We've done this lots and of course it's kinda right but really comes down to the circumstances. IMV if you can clearly analyse and explain why something "just off the side" or between pistes is pretty safe then I think you're in different territory to blundering into the unknown. And just because there is generally little objective hazard in a zone it doesn't mean there won't be local hazards to deal with like a loaded rollover.

Having said that I've just been somewhere where very experienced offpiste skiers and boarders seemed to be making nutty decisions. Powder frenzy is indeed a strange affliction.


Coming down to circumstances is what all decision making in avalanche terrain is about. The point is that off-piste is off-piste in Europe and you should be making the same decisions as you would be making further away as you would by choosing to ski the side of the piste. If you know how to make those decisions that's all well and good but if you don't then you are just rolling dice which a lot of people do and I know I have done as well earlier in my skiing career. Hence there is no such thing as "a little bit off-piste".

'Powder frenzy' is just another heuristic trap of many to be aware of.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
FlyingStantoni, point taken. (Although I would say that of course it doesn't imply that skiing on piste is safe either!!! Just a different set of hazards.)

My understanding is that the whole idea is to minimise a risk of being taken in an avalanche altogether and that simply having the correct kit will not prevent this. IMV good judgement and not doing anything stupid are key.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Going back to the opening post, if someone is on a week's course with an instructor, it is highly likely that in quite a short period of time that the instructor will take you well away from the piste to give you a better chance of getting fresh snow. So many people ski off piste these days that the stuff near the pistes soon gets tracked out.

It will seem like quite an adventure for the first time, however you can rest assured that the instructor will chose his routes very carefully, as he will be aware that if anything should happen, a group of novice off piste skiers will not be able to help much.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Hmmm .... Based on the last video posted, this thread could be moving from advice for someone's first off-piste course, over to 'let's post a video that will really put him off'!

[edited due to my terrible grammar/spelling!]
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
So now we have suitably scared you with the inevitable talk of technical avalanche gear you don't know how to use and given you a suitable amount of scare factor about the avalanches that are going to kill you, I suppose a little advice towards how to approach it would be pleasant. As mentioned somewhere amidst the above I would strongly recommend Jelly Babies, a little sugar boost does wonders when picking yourself off the ground for the nth time in one descent.

Riding off piste is a different mind set entirely, all of a sudden you have to pay attention to the terrain features that you can use to help/hinder you, the bits that are all flattened out by the bashers usually. Learning how to adapt to the wider variety of terrain is really important, as is looking/feeling what the snow is doing under your skis. It ain't all about the powder, you will ride some windcrust and some choppy hardpack and some windblown snow. You need to feel free to adapt the skills you already have to the conditions as they change through the day and the location, there is far less right and wrong when talking about technique off piste. Be more adaptable and start to listen to the snow and the feedback your skis are giving you. Stop concentrating on individual turns, being balanced over the balls of the feet etc and start contemplating complete pitches, including your line choice and much more fore/aft movement to suit the conditions at that particular point. Start using the shape of the mountain to help you, be playful with it!

Just my 2cents wink (You'll love it. Enjoy the start of your real skiing career and being off the ''beginner area, aka resort/pistes'')
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I caused an avalanche on-piste on an open blue piste last week - in St Anton. (Not much of one, admittedly.)
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
James the Last wrote:
I caused an avalanche on-piste on an open blue piste last week - in St Anton. (Not much of one, admittedly.)


Is that a good thing ? Puzzled
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flintstoner, Thanks for the advice.

I'm still v much looking forward to getting stuck in - although a little apprehensive.

I'll certainly report back on how it all went, and thanks to everyone for the tips/advice!
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:

I thought that an introduction to off-piste course would make use of terrain just to the edge of a piste but still within the confines of the resort? Is all the avi rescue kit really necessary?

I'd expect such a course to start by teaching me about stuff like lee slope dangers, slope angles, weather, etc - digging pits - how to use the equipment (not self-evident) etc etc. Like if you go on an "introduction to sailing" course you'll be taught about how to use safety harnesses and how to interpret a weather forecast and how to deal with a man overboard - even though you hope you'll never encounter a MOB.

I've done several yachting courses, they always include MOB drills - I'm actually rather good at them! But have never yet, thankfully, had to use those skills for real (though have picked up Hats Overboard and once an inflatable dinghy another yacht had lost without even noticing. Same with stuff like transceiver practice; one must hope fervently never to have to do it for real.
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