meh, the Snow Centre where we teach uses 1-3 for beginners and we get a fair amount of people who come to us after completing basic instruction and are Level " 4's " so we start there as opposed to 1...
trying hard not be be vague but prescriptive so people can immediately identify, yes level X describes me very closely.. would you feel that works for you? or do you feel you are a bit of each level...?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
skimottaret, How about a 'compare' check box so you can just bring up the full description for 2/3 selections. A bit like shopping sites.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
skimottaret wrote:
meh, the Snow Centre where we teach uses 1-3 for beginners and we get a fair amount of people who come to us after completing basic instruction and are Level " 4's " so we start there as opposed to 1...
trying hard not be be vague but prescriptive so people can immediately identify, yes level X describes me very closely.. would you feel that works for you? or do you feel you are a bit of each level...?
Fair enough on the 1-3 stuff but you could condense that down for the sake of brevity and still start at 4?
I think the scale as is should work pretty well to get people self-identifying particularly in the demographic you seem to be targeting between levels 4 and 10.
At the top end its a bit vague as you are using some subjective terminology like 'difficult off-piste terrain'. Since you're trying to create levels of skiing ability I can't think objective danger can rate into the difficulty of the off-piste terrain but talking about slope steepness and snow conditions here might be useful as by the time you are in the upper tiers the jargon should be familiar. Although I think I'm probably being pedantic on this point.
Really good - been trying to figure out what level I am and the 1 - 6 scale you usually get is not clear.
I think i'm 6 maybe 7 on your scale, I think the explanations are good and help me to understand I am not as good as my tiny mind tells me I am!
* these are my thoughts and not based on any education or professional ski knowledge
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
skimottaret, Why not let people post a run of 6 short radius turns, using pole plant, on plastic indoor or snow, and we can give them a level, (that’s a BASI we) 1-6 for no charge. No pressure.
Cynic, If evidence of a pole plant is any guage of skill then I think I'm probably a beginner!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Could you look at it a different way perhaps? I'm 'freestyling' here, so bear with.
Instead of trying to place people on a single axis of ability, which maybe isn't really how ability works, you could ask questions that relate to technique, fitness, confidence, ...
Like:
Do you prefer soft snow or icy snow, or have no preference?
Do you like to pick up speed during a turn, or do you deliberately scrape off speed toward the end of every turn?
Do you often come to a standstill at the end of a turn and have difficulty getting started again?
Do you finish a day's skiing with aching thighs, knees, ankles, or no leg pain?
Do you actively seek out the steeper aspects of a run, or actively avoid them?
I dunno - that sort of shiz.
And then, this is a 'shape' of information, a greater-than-1-dimensional space of information about the skier, rather than an exercise in scoring marks out of ten.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Megamum, Or possibly find moguls a challenge?
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I agree with speedy, putting colours as your basis can be mis-understood or mis-interpreted. For example, i would say i'm a 6/7, but when i ski in Bulgaria the blacks are completely different to the double diamond blacks in Whistler. Same as 'feel confident'. I've seen some peole go racing past me on a red, one leg in the air and screaming for people to get out of the way (slight exaggeration but you know what i mean), who you then see at the bottom discussing with their mates saying 'easy' it was. Might also be worth including something about number of turns. Most people could 'carve turn' 4 turns on a red, but then have to stop because they have been getting faster and faster, and cannot even link another turn. Linking 20 - 30 carve turns in a controlled manner is a completely different level of skier. IMO.
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Cynic, I am at the stage where I know I need to learn to deal with moguls - I've done just the odd 10-12 really small ones with an instructor and so I am starting on them, but I'd be floored with a field of proper moguls so yes, I know I have to work on that pole plant
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
paulio, we do supplant our numbers with a set of ?'s to help with grouping but to be honest we usually group people by the things they need to work on as opposed to levels.. so yes a shape of info
how many weeks have you skied
how many last season
what are you happiest skiing
Type of skier (timid, gung ho etc)
what skis do you prefer
fitness levels
etc.
we used to ask more ?'s similar to yours but found the above is enough for us to make an intelligent guess at setting groups...
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
skimottaret, What you have works fine. I don't see any real difference from the previous version.
I guess peeps ought to know too, that it's probably much harder to get from level 11 to level 12, than from level 1 to level 11
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
the age old problem of classifying levels. I tried to do it via video a couple of years ago.... all under the search term of 'steveangus1' on youtube. Here is my level 5 video - I have 9 levels on there at the moment and I was hoping to get a tenth but I need professional athletes / FIS racers footage etc to make that work!
paulio love your comment about -1 for femaly / -3 for male and your point about your mate after a week thinking he was a level 5.... perception is often so misplaced isn't it.
My rule of thumb is the more someone has skied the the more they realise they need to improve. I personally think that of myself. The more I teach and ski the more I realise I have to learn.
I have always thought that skiing and snowboarding should always (wherever possible) be assessed by skills based as opposed to 'colour of run' based approach. As speedy said it is supposed to be a reflection on ability as opposed to bravery - which are often blurred it not intentionally or not. Most instructors recognise that males over-estimate their abilities and women under-estimate abilities.... bravery and the 'mental' side of things - heck that is a whole other board game!
skimottaret and rob@rar - i think what you have here is EXCELLENT - a great, well worded and thought out classification system that allows people to reflect well as to exactly where they are on the sliding rating scale of performance (or lack of) - WELL DONE.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Patch, mainly on off piste skiing and trying to differentiate the levels better, but thanks good to hear it works fine ! too true on your 1 to 11 vs >11
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Cynic, if you and/or skimottaret could rate our skiing and compare it to our own score, that would be quite useful. I know someone above said that having someone rate their skiing as a low number would put them off, but to be honest, it if you want to improve, i'd rather have a BASI tell me i'm a 5 and i need to work on XYZ, rather than convincing myself i'm a 7 because i went down a black run in Bulgaria once. You could then use the content, with the users permission of course, as a basis for the skiers level.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Patch wrote:
skimottaret, What you have works fine. I don't see any real difference from the previous version.
I guess peeps ought to know too, that it's probably much harder to get from level 11 to level 12, than from level 1 to level 11
+1 AGREED
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Steve Angus, love it in that vid where you caption it "popping of the side of the piste... variable snow!"
looks perfectly groomed for a mainly "ski in scotland" skier
We have different definitions of "variable"
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Steve Angus, cheers steve, Rob and I had a long car journey down to Meribel a couple weeks ago and tried to flesh our scale out a bit... I really like your video descriptions and have referred people to em in the past. We have a lot of video of clients and when we get a moment will try to do a compilation of people at various levels, perhaps we could add yourself and Clair as a model performance at each stage...
We also have added a + and - internally to help with the Psychological and Physical sides of TTPPEE
skimottaret, I like the levels and there seems to be less ambiguity than in similar charts that I've seen. I had a think about where I would place my friends and most of them seem to be around the level 6-7 and I suspect there would be a big grouping of skiers in those categories. Nothing wrong with that - I suspect it's indicative of the difficulty in getting to 8 and above.
I like the breakdown in levels 9 to 11. However I think you've copied the 'This is what we offer:' for level 10 from level 9, and it doesn't really match the description for level 10.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I like the ski new generation levels. pretty straighforward.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:
when we get a moment will try to do a compilation of people at various levels, perhaps we could add yourself and Clair as a model performance at each stage...
but of course - I don't charge too much for appearance fees - ha ha. Clares Eurotest was cancelled in ADH because lack of snow last week and then St Christoph at the weekend there was too much snow to run it - F*&(&(£ typical isn't it!
Quote:
We also have added a + and - internally to help with the Psychological and Physical sides of TTPPEE
.....Great but don't let people use that as an excuse to move up or down the scale too much - maybe just one rung at a time max IMO!
After all it is free
After all it is free
Quote:
I like the breakdown in levels 9 to 11. However I think you've copied the 'This is what we offer:' for level 10 from level 9, and it doesn't really match the description for level 10.
good spot and a mistake on my part, thanks for pointing it out...
shoogly, they are very good but top out a little early for the type of people we work with... i do like how they couple a video clip with the text descriptions.
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I thought everyone on here was automatically an "Agressive intermediate"
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paulio wrote:
Just add an 'expand all' button?
I have an 'Expand all' facility with Firefox and NoScript on my PC. By disallowing scripts from insideoutskiing.com I can see the full text all the levels on the screen. If I allow scripts from insideoutskiing.com I only see the heading lines.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
skimottaret wrote:
we are finding on our alpine coaching trips people are doing more side of the piste/ deep snow on piste type of skiing earlier in their progression than we had previously had listed.
Not always by choice either
Snow does seem to follow you (which isn't a complaint).
I quite like the scale, but I don't like the clicking between levels as it does make them difficult to compare (and I guess many of us will have 'good day' and 'bad day' levels). I can (sort of) classify myself and know others who fit some of the descriptions.
I'm not sure if videos would help me much as I now know that what I think I look like and what I actually look like are not necessarily the same thing, however seeing something that is obviously either way above or way below my expectations could provide a useful reality check.
What you really need to do is get peoples' friends to rate them (in a secret ballot obviously).
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I've always quite liked the IO grading system. I've seen loads of schemes out there, but the IO one has always been about the only one that I reasonably clearly drop into a single classification with. The only drawback is that having re-read them I am still on the same level 6 that I was when I first saw them over a year ago
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Seems like a reasonable scale, I start the first day back on skis feeling like a 4! More like a 6/7 after an hour or two tho. Is that the usual girly response of preferring to underestimate our abilities than find our selves holding back the group?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I really like 'you are humble' in the Level 11 expert discription!
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
lilywhite wrote:
Is that the usual girly response of preferring to underestimate our abilities than find our selves holding back the group?
It's just polite, isn't it? A standard English deferential thing to do is to understate your ability so as not to hold others back.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
The scale looks good and if it maps into your products then it's fine. If you were offering off piste programs then a few more questions would be needed and might need to be on a separate scale.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
skimottaret wrote:
Megamum, mainly the changes are to do with off piste skiing, we are finding on our alpine coaching trips people are doing more side of the piste/ deep snow on piste type of skiing earlier in their progression than we had previously had listed.
there is a big jump from 5 to 6 , and we tend to find a jump from 6 to 7 as well....
Interesting.
I was going to say that I thought the jump from 7 to 8 was a bit big, and that there doesn't seem that much difference between 6 and 7.
But this may be because I would place myself at a 7, and think I would need to gain a lot to be an 8.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
a.j. wrote:
I think you've got a gap between 4 and 5 skimottaret? Somewhere you need 'I'm venturing onto blues' - it's one of the first major milestones? Maybe change 4 to be 'on greens and venturing onto blues'? 'Confident on blues' as you have for lvl5 usually takes a second trip ime, more for some people.
But if you are skiing in any European country other than France/Spain/Andorra, there is no such thing as a green, so you are on blues right from the start.
Given that one of the trips on the website is to Italy, and they have done Austria in the past, I'm a little surprised they talk about greens as if they are everywhere.
You'll never get a single number which fits everyone. I've never raced and don't want to teach and am not as stylish on bumps as I should be because I almost never ski them. On the other hand I can ski any sort of nasty snow and am happy on 40º or even 45º slopes (but nervous on 50º if there is exposure). So I'm different on different things - like many people, I'm sure.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
skimottaret wrote:
a.j. wrote:
I think you've got a gap between 4 and 5 skimottaret? Somewhere you need 'I'm venturing onto blues' - it's one of the first major milestones? Maybe change 4 to be 'on greens and venturing onto blues'? 'Confident on blues' as you have for lvl5 usually takes a second trip ime, more for some people.
aj xx
good point , have tried to improve the Level 4 , any better?
I can't see a difference, but I don't have the old one cached
Having read a bit more i'm thinking maybe just take 'confidently' out of the level 5? Honestly it would have been about my 4th week before I'd have wanted to say I skied blues 'confidently' (yes, I'm a girl ;P), long after I was parallel all the time and snowplough was only used for dealing with tedious narrows or while trying to work out what a sign said. The rest of the description sounds to me like the standard 'one week completed' and whether those folks say they are confident or not on blues is mostly in the head, not the legs...
aj xx
p.s yes i acknowlege greens aren't everywhere, the green bit in the descriptions isn't my doing I don't think it makes that much difference though - blue in austria etc aren't equivalent to green in france, they just include the green and blue slopes in the same blue category, so the level of skiing to be 'confident on blues' is the same most places inc states/austria
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I have only skiied in Chamonix and never tried a black. I am very comfortable in good conditions on any slope and can get down reds when it is icy. I have never been of piste.
Where do i fit in the levels?
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I think attitude and ability need to be separated ie the difference between,
The cautious individual that will master the blues before going anywhere near a red and may be a very stylish skier on blues and reds, having skied them for 15 years but never goes near a black or offpiste. (about 90% of women)
The nutter that happily ventures onto blacks in the first week and does not care how they get down even if they do go
A over T half a dozen times on the way and is always looking for a challenge on the limit (and sometimes beyond) of their ability. If they survive, they usually learn very fast. ( about 90% of men)
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
with the users permission of course, as a basis for the skiers level.
