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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
pam w wrote:
But the kind of people I'm talking about don't fall into that category.

I guess quite a lot of people are in the same category as me. The "I can't do it!" category. I need a trusted instructor who can convince me I can. An unqualified skier, however competent, just doesn't cut it. Extreme example - Easiski (Charlotte) took us to La Grave one day. I spent the previous 2 days saying, "I can't do it!" Then I did it. There's no way on earth I would have gone with anyone else.

Likewise, if looking at something tricky, I need someone to tell me how to ski it, then tell me I am actually capable of skiing it. And I'm not sure I'd trust someone not properly qualified to make that judgement.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
When skiing I find the difference between fairly good skiers and good skiers is much less obvious on good snow. Put people on heavy off piste or breakable crust and suddenly the difference is enormous.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:

I need a trusted instructor who can convince me I can. An unqualified skier, however competent, just doesn't cut it. Extreme example - Easiski (Charlotte) took us to La Grave one day. I spent the previous 2 days saying, "I can't do it!" Then I did it. There's no way on earth I would have gone with anyone else.

me too!
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kitenski wrote:
I'm being deliberately awkward, however genuinely interested, but what if your peers/folk your watching have bad habits??



It's a problem for sure. I never had a genepi habit until I started skiing with andyrew.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
My friends wife is a very cautious skier who seems to refuse to take lessons and doesn't want to get better and lacks any confidence though she seems to enjoy ski holidays. The bizarre thing is that she is a qualified riding instructor who regularly rides x country courses which is far scarier as far as I'm concerned.
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kitenski wrote:
but what if your peers/folk your watching have bad habits??

You're likely pick up those bad habits as well.

Assuming your peers/folk can ski more varied terrain than you, those bad habit will work for a while, up to your peers level.

And if that's a level you're happy to stay with (say, in order to ski with your peer/husband/...), that's not so terribly bad a situataion.
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kitenski wrote:
andyrew wrote:
that there are many many other ways to learn is rather important.


Do you have examples of effective ways of learning skiing other than with a qualified instructor or coach? Note a good instructor may not and should not use "old style bog standard teacher to pupil instruction" for every pupil.


Watch instructional DVD, analyse, apply. Not as good as a good instructor who can give feedback but undoubtedly better than nothing.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
kitenski wrote:
andyrew wrote:
that there are many many other ways to learn is rather important.


Do you have examples of effective ways of learning skiing other than with a qualified instructor or coach? Note a good instructor may not and should not use "old style bog standard teacher to pupil instruction" for every pupil.


When I started over 30 years ago few of my contempories (or people I've met along the way) would take much in the way of paid for instruction. There are things called (now I know many youngsters won't have heard of these)... books. We had several, including the 80's editions of the two volume basi manual. maybe we old farts were better at analyzing our own body position? And there were several good videos (vhs of course) I picked up along the way. skiing with peers and betters I always found to be an improving experience. Much use was made of video cameras (good old 8mm analog) to look at yourself. What is important to understand though, is that there are some people who simply do not learn through having someone talking at them or even demonstrating, they have to see it written down and internalise it from there. I know people who learn this way and not through physical tuition. This is just the way their brains are wired.


Last edited by After all it is free Go on u know u want to! on Tue 1-04-14 9:01; edited 1 time in total
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andyrew wrote:

some people who simply do not learn through having someone talking at them or even demonstrating, they have to see it written down and internalise it from there. I know people who learn this way and not through physical tuition. This is just the way their brains are wired.


This is me. I'm terrible at copying other people's movements, and I find it hard to imagine how anybody benefits from having an instructor draw an "S" shape in the snow again and again but presumably some people must.

(On the other hand, I went on one of rob@rar's tuneup days at Hemel last year and that really did work for me)
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finestgreen wrote:
andyrew wrote:

some people who simply do not learn through having someone talking at them or even demonstrating, they have to see it written down and internalise it from there. I know people who learn this way and not through physical tuition. This is just the way their brains are wired.


This is me. I'm terrible at copying other people's movements, and I find it hard to imagine how anybody benefits from having an instructor draw an "S" shape in the snow again and again but presumably some people must.

(On the other hand, I went on one of rob@rar's tuneup days at Hemel last year and that really did work for me)


Yeah, that rob@rar is rubbish at drawing "S's" on snow. Toofy Grin
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anarchicsaltire wrote:
Yeah, that rob@rar is rubbish at drawing "S's" on snow. Toofy Grin

Laughing If you look closely all I seem to manage is to draw "C's". Must make more of an effort.

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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
rob@rar, well everyone is paying rapt attention to you, so you must have been talking sense As usual, about your drawn C's Toofy Grin
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Quote:

I find it hard to imagine how anybody benefits from having an instructor draw an "S" shape in the snow again and again but presumably some people must.

It would be hard for an instructor to explain at what point in the turn various things should be happening without drawing a curve or two and then pointing at the relevant bit of it. Maybe you've just chosen the wrong instructors, finestgreen?
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
pam w wrote:
Quote:

I find it hard to imagine how anybody benefits from having an instructor draw an "S" shape in the snow again and again but presumably some people must.

It would be hard for an instructor to explain at what point in the turn various things should be happening without drawing a curve or two and then pointing at the relevant bit of it. Maybe you've just chosen the wrong instructors, finestgreen?


Sure, but I mean they draw the zig-zag and say "Not like this" and draw the S-curve and say "Like this!". And, yes, I think I have chosen the wrong instructors!
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:

Likewise, if looking at something tricky, I need someone to tell me how to ski it, then tell me I am actually capable of skiing it. And I'm not sure I'd trust someone not properly qualified to make that judgement.


Isn't learning how to assess for yourself a)whether you're capable of skiing something and b) if so how to ski it part of the lessons you've had?
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:

Likewise, if looking at something tricky, I need someone to tell me how to ski it, then tell me I am actually capable of skiing it. And I'm not sure I'd trust someone not properly qualified to make that judgement.


If you don't know how to ski something and don't feel that you can... should you ?

I'd suggest not.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Lots of skiers err on the side of caution when deciding what they can and can not ski. I see part of my job as encouraging clients to ski terrain I know they are capable of but they might not feel capable of.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
rob@rar, sure but I assume (hope) it is also part of an instructors job to develop their client's abilities to read terrain for themselves and work out their own strategies for skiing things in the hope they'd one day be able to cut the apron strings and become more self reliant.
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swiftoid, yes, of course. Part of that is to show they already have the necessary skills, then helping them find the confidence to tackle slopes they previously wouldn't have. That might well be a stiff blue, an icy red, black pistes they have a phobia of, or wind blown off piste followed by lumpy variable snow.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
rob@rar, i'd submit that theres a difference betwixt i don't know how and dont know if i can and I can see how but don't know if i should

Not being at all facetious or anything you appreciate Twisted Evil
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under a new name wrote:
i'd submit that theres a difference betwixt i don't know how and dont know if i can and I can see how but don't know if i should
Well, perhaps, possibly, maybe. If there is a difference for a number of skiers it gets clouded by the general thought of "ummi'mnotsurescaryfeelingsteeptroublewhatifreallynotformenowwhere'sthatnicerunilikewiththegoodchocolateattheendofit".
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rob@rar,
Quote:

ummi'mnotsurescaryfeelingsteeptroublewhatifreallynotformenowwhere'sthatnicerunilikewiththegoodchocolateattheendofit
When did you get to inhabit my head?!!! Shocked
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Pedantica, Laughing
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Pedantica wrote:
rob@rar,
Quote:

ummi'mnotsurescaryfeelingsteeptroublewhatifreallynotformenowwhere'sthatnicerunilikewiththegoodchocolateattheendofit
When did you get to inhabit my head?!!! Shocked

Laughing Laughing
On a more serious note, I would agree that confidence can be gained from being told by an instructor that you have the ability to ski terrain/conditions you consider beyond you. However, even more valuable in my opinion, is being asked a question relating to what I need to do, thus focusing away from feelings such as those above and towards the knowledge and technique I already have and how to apply it in a challenging situation. The latter is obviously a higher level instruction skill wink Toofy Grin .
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Iski wrote:
On a more serious note, I would agree that confidence can be gained from being told by an instructor that you have the ability to ski terrain/conditions you consider beyond you. However, even more valuable in my opinion, is being asked a question relating to what I need to do, thus focusing away from feelings such as those above and towards the knowledge and technique I already have and how to apply it in a challenging situation. The latter is obviously a higher level instruction skill wink Toofy Grin .
Alternatively, the strongly issued command of "follow me, and don't suck" ...
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rob@rar, Laughing
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
rob@rar, don't forget the "OMGthatrunhasgotthewrongcolouredpolesdownthesideofitIthinkIwillgotheotherway" !!

There is a black I saw above Alpendorf on holiday this year. An easy pathswept around it, and TBH I think I could have skied it and now wish that I had tried. However, if I had been there with a instructor who had said 'you can ski that, it isn't very long and it's only steeper at the top and I know you can ski it then I would have done it there and then. A little reinforcement goes a long way and it seems to have much more effect when it comes from someone that is is qualified to know what they are talking about.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
rob@rar,
Quote:

the strongly issued command of "follow me, and don't suck" ...
Yep. That sounds familiar. rolling eyes
snow conditions     
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
One of the more intimidating orders I got was "not to fall off" a draglift, on cross country skis. It was up a blue piste I can ski easily enough on downhill skis but it has a steep bottom and falling off would have meant either a long and tiring hike up, or skis off and a wobbly hike down. It would have taken an expert nordique skier to ski down it and try the lift again.

I know my own area very well and am able to judge where, and when, to take friends and relations who want to try something a bit more difficult but not get out of their depth. But an instructor would make bolder choices for them than I would. Usually an instructor will know an area much better than his charges and make this judgement - if I've never skied a particular black run and don't know the likely snow conditions then left to myself I'll probably opt out but if an instructor takes me down it, I'll almost certainly enjoy it.

I took my nordic skis off this morning, faced with a "danger, slow!" sign and an absence of traces (always a bad sign) when I couldn't see round the downhill bend. With an instructor who knew the bend I'd have been able to ski it, and next time I'll give it a go, but I think I made the right decision this morning. Stopping on those things, once you've picked up any speed, is difficult. I was amused to see hefty orange padding round the tree I'd probably have crashed into if I'd messed it up - there's not much of that in the nordic area.

It's a case of choosing your challenges, isn't it? Some of us like to be scared witless and some just like a wee quickening of the pulse. wink
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Megamum, do you mean the Hexenschuss? If so, it's short but fairly steep. The only dodgy aspect is that it empties out on the side of a blue piste so there's potential for collisions. The other blacks in Alpendorf are longer but less steep.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
queen bodecia, looking at the interactive piste map I think the one I whoosed out on was Sonntagskogel (I didn't realise they were named until I clicked the computer map) number 50a. In fact that is one thing I wish the paper maps there did - to print both the run names and the lift names on the piste maps and sign the runs by name on the slopes. I've skied in Val Thorens a lot and I have to say that their maps and signing make navigation so much easier than Ski Amade.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
pam w wrote:
...
if I've never skied a particular black run and don't know the likely snow conditions then left to myself I'll probably opt out but if an instructor takes me down it, I'll almost certainly enjoy it.
...
It's a case of choosing your challenges, isn't it? Some of us like to be scared witless and some just like a wee quickening of the pulse. wink


Sorry, I find these comments and the other ones from other 'experienced' skiers who won't ski things on their own rather a shame. Each to his own of course though. To me there's something really nice about standing at the edge of a totally new ski resort with an "unticked" piste map and skiing the whole area "from right to left" picking off everything in turn whatever the colour. OK you occasionally find the odd surprise, like the black in koenigsleiten that was like skiing a field of marbles (if only we'd been able to hang around an hour till it softened) but generally the surprises are of delight. And its not just me I had a single digit week skier with me as well who would have skied the same route without me and indeed has done similar on solo trips. Neither of us understands where the "scared witless" bit comes in.

Each to his own.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
andyrew wrote:
I had a single digit week skier with me as well who would have skied the same route without me and indeed has done similar on solo trips. Neither of us understands where the "scared witless" bit comes in

On piste I will ski anything that my OH leads me to but I certainly wouldn't have done so as a single digit week skier. However, even now, off piste without a guide/instructor is a no-no and I don't see that changing.

Oh, and one person's "scared witless" is another's "sensible behaviour".
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andyrew wrote:
Neither of us understands where the "scared witless" bit comes in.
Perhaps you've never been pushed outside of your comfort zone?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I've been pushed outside it and I can assure andyrew, that it does exist.

In terms of skiing something 'iffy' first with someone I trust this was the case with 'Col' in VT. Some of the VT reds I have still not skied (a couple on the RH side are reputed to be the blacker side of red), and Col (oin the LH side) was also on that list. It's high, often windblown and often (though not always) visually mogulled from some distance away suggesting robust moguls. During EoSB 2013 a group of skiers that I look up to and trust inc. rob@rar, and Masque set off from the K&F to go an have some fun. Whilst I was worried that less fun would be had by thm I really wanted to ski on the moutain with this group, I think I wanted to show them that I had finally cracked this 'confidence' thing. So I asked if they would take me along just for a bit. It became apparent that Col was our destination. Now rightly (or maybe wrongly - in which case I don't think I want to know), I think it was chosen in the knowledge that I was with them and my brain did the 'well they must think I am capable' thing. It turned out to be great snow up there and great weather conditions and I never thought twice about skiing it once I got going, but I doubt I would have attempted it without the company I was in at the time. I even went back the next day and did it again. Very Happy I probably never said so at the time, but I was really chuffed to be included in the group and really chuffed to sk what I had always viewed as 'probably beyond me'. Very Happy
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rob@rar wrote:
andyrew wrote:
Neither of us understands where the "scared witless" bit comes in.
Perhaps you've never been pushed outside of your comfort zone?


Well I dunno, what do I have to do?

I've skied pretty much all of the big places in France (never been to chamonix) skiied the Grand Couloir at Courchevel, and the tunnel at ADH (a few times), Harakiri in Mayrhofen (3rd and 4th run on the 1st day in January and then each time in passing - although TBH preferred 7 and 16a), week before last we went for a looksee down the swiss wall again, although personally we thought Barbossine was more fun. I can't go past Comborciere in Arc without a round. I probably would draw the line at Corbets couloir in Jackson hole, but I'll probably never go there anyway. I've never been overly fussed about offpiste (my old skis were way too skinny) but may do a bit more funds permitting. But this is all sounding a bit like a p1ssing contest.

So, I'm not sure, what do I have to do to leave this comfort zone?
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Quote:

So, I'm not sure, what do I have to do to leave this comfort zone?



Errrr..............try all of the above on a snowboard (assuming you only ski)?
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
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andyrew wrote:
So, I'm not sure, what do I have to do to leave this comfort zone?
All things are relative, so quite simply be taken to terrain that you are uncomfortable on. Perhaps then you would have a better understanding of how some skiers can be "scared witless" on terrain that you don't need to give a second thought about.
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Megamum wrote:
Quote:

So, I'm not sure, what do I have to do to leave this comfort zone?



Errrr..............try all of the above on a snowboard (assuming you only ski)?


Good point. NOW I am scared witless Shocked
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andyrew wrote:


So, I'm not sure, what do I have to do to leave this comfort zone?


Take yourself to the top of the steepest, iciest black run you know, with rock hard marbles and moguls on it.

Take one ski off and give it to a mate who skis to the bottom with it

See how you feel Smile
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