Poster: A snowHead
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Well I just got an ABS airbag and whilst in the pre-snow spending mood I thought it's time to consider upgrading my 15 year old Ortovox F1 transceiver. So what can fellow snowheads recommend? I've read about the big advances in digital and multi antenna devices making for quicker and easier searches, particularly for multiple burials. I like my old F1, it fits very well, simple to use. What are the advantages of an upgrade? Cheers
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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waynos, i got the new ortovox 3+ last year , and its my first transiever , in practice in st anton with various other makes it was the stand out performer in ease of use and multiple burials , its also seems really durable and well made, got a great deal of "live to ski" snow sheperd , cant reaally help with advatages over older models apart from this was so much clearer regarding distance etc then the bca tracker 1 i had loaned before.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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waynos, I have the 3+ as well and it performed very well interactive today. Great for multi-burials as all you do when you locate the first signal is press one button and move on to the next signal. Really is that simple and quick to use. Twice as fast as moffatross' 5 year old model.
Hope never to use it obviously, but I feel I could depend on it in an emergency.
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At the Manchester transceiver practice there were a number of different models. Although Ronald's 3+ appeared to be fantasticly easy to use for multi-burials, geepee's F1 Focus had a significantly better range.
Try:
http://beaconreviews.com/transceivers/
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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BCA Tracker2, Ortovox 3+ / S1, Pieps DSP or Mammut Pulse are all good (triple antenna) beacons.
Anyone buying a new beacon should select from that list.
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in digital and multi antenna devices making for quicker and easier searches |
Yip - addition of 3rd antenna helps eliminates spikes. This is the main reason to get a modern beacon - as it makes the final phase of the search much faster. Probing may not even be required. Read - http://beaconreviews.com/transceivers/Spikes.asp
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particularly for multiple burials |
The Ortovox 3+, S1, Pieps and Mammut all allow the user to mark / isolate signals. However... the feature is far from perfect or idiot proof. It is very possible to accidently mask 2 beacons (or perhaps for a marked signal to become unmarked). BCA Tracker2 use a different approach and allows the user to narrow angle of search width to isolate multiple burials manually. In short - even with a modern digital beacon multiple burials still require practice.
5 or 10 years there was an argument that the F1 was just as quick in skilled hands.
However these days there is no doubt that the digital beacons are better in every aspect.
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If you can genuinely use the F1 to a high level and the thing still works properly then the advantages you will experience are less than those experienced by a new user. The main advantage of the 3 antenna models for the recreational user is that you can use some of them out of the box without really looking at the manual (obviously this isn't the smartest thing to do) and hence you can still get a good result with less practice.
You may find the range on the newer digital models to be shorter but you will probably move through the later phases of the search faster once you have acquired a signal. There's a genuine trade off here for the advanced user - I've heard of people who have the Barryvox Pulse rigged to start in analogue mode for the range and they they move it into digital mode once they start getting close. I'm not good enough with an analogue transceiver to do this but you may want to look at it if you are fast with an F1. See http://beaconreviews.com/transceivers/RangeTestResults.asp
Otherwise, the multiple burial advantages are significant as are the advantages with pinpointing deep/awkward burials. I've never experienced a situation with mine where I'm getting more than one "closest" point.
Regarding the selection of a beacon, there are broadly two groups. Group one has more functionality and is likely better if you know what you are doing (check the range of the Pulse/S1 vs the 3+/Tracker 2). These are pricier and some of the functionality is more complex, I can see how that might be bad in a high stress situation. Group two is cheaper and emphasises ease of use - a good thing imv, if you are only using the thing a couple of weeks a year.
I'd have a look through http://beaconreviews.com/ and see what you think.
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tracker 2 and 3+ we're both picking signals up from around 40m today. Both homed in on the signal pretty quickly once under 30m. Obviously if it was a big slide then you'd benefit from 2 or 3 searchers working at regular intervals.
How much more distance do the higher end devices work from?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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^ range is not actually so important. (and also highly dependent on orientation).
The longest range beacons will always be old single antenna analogue models.
With digital beacons the RF signal strength is being divided between 3 antennas.
So whilst the range is less the directional accuracy when searching is much better & faster.
Especially during the fine search.
Read beaconreviews.com then take your pick from....
- BCA Tracker2
- Ortovox 3+ / S1
- Pieps DSP
- Mammut Pulse
^ all good options.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Not sure I trust that table. My digital Barryvox 3000 was only picking up a range signal at 25-30 metres today versus the BCA Tracker 2 & Ortovox 3+ which were both getting a direction and range from 40 metres or so from the target. That just meant that on a couple of occasions today, I felt a bit of a lemon but in an emergency, it would have me questioning the efficacy of my search.
Got to agree that seeing the 3+ doing its stuff today was impressive for its shear ease of use though & I can think of other reasons why you'd want to just isolate a signal e.g. a partial burial where a transceiver couldn't be accessed to switch it off or in the chaos, a transmit signal from a non-victim elsewhere isn't switched off. Multiple signals would be difficult enough to deal with in that chaos & anything that makes easily pinpointing a second unaccounted for victim has got to help.
I may be in the market for a S3 pretty soon.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Thanks everyone, brilliant info. I'll spend sometime today going through http://beaconreviews.com and the info on here, the 3+ seems most popular on here. I don't really get why digital devices have less range than analogue, it's the same RF signal they pick up on, the digital bit is how those signals are interpreted, so why less range? Or is it more to do with multiple antennas?
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I have the S1 and really rate it for pinpointing and multiples.
Unless you are an avalanche pro who does this stuff all the time I'd go for a pulse or an s1.
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You know it makes sense.
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I don't really get why digital devices have less range than analogue |
In simple terms the RF energy from the 457kHz signal is being split between 3 antennas instead of 1.
Old analogue beacons (F1 etc) may have longer range - but you need to stop and rotate the beacon manually to get directional information. So its not any faster. The shorter range of a digital beacon (circa 40m vs 60m) is more than compensated for in a quicker search - especially during the fine phase at the end.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Quote: |
I've heard of people who have the Barryvox Pulse rigged to start in analogue mode for the range and they they move it into digital mode once they start getting close
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That's the default setting for the Pulse. If it doesn't have a strong signal, it automatically goes to Analogue mode. The old Barryvox 3000 was the same.
You can also switch manually between analogue and digi modes if you wish.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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GordonFreeman, no, when you are looking for the first signal on a Mammut and it has the "lightning bolt" symbol up (actually a reminder to use a zig-zag seach pattern!) it is in Analogue mode. It will swich to digi when it picks up a strong enough signal.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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^ The D3 is a Patroller / X1 without the ability to automatically switch between analogue (1 antenna) and digital (3 antenna) modes. Would explain the range difference.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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shoogly wrote: |
waynos, I have the 3+ as well and it performed very well interactive today. Great for multi-burials as all you do when you locate the first signal is press one button and move on to the next signal. |
I have the 3+ and have used it on one of the HAT weekends and again today during the London trannie practise session.
It's fantastic with one or two victims. But on both occasions, it became confused with the third and fourth victims. During the HAT course, I rebooted (at the suggestion of one of the other people on the course who had to reboot a different trannie due to the same issue) after walking around in circles trying to locate the third victim. And that seemed to work - was able to locate that victim within a minute.
Today, we did several sessions with 3 victims and one session with 4 victims. Twice I had to reboot and twice I didn't. So, the results are inconclusive as to whether a reboot is always required.
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Zero-G wrote: |
today during the London trannie practise session.
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Any transvestites turn up?
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GordonFreeman, yup all of us. It was a sight to behold
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Quote: |
Having to reboot sometimes to find a 3rd victim is not great |
^ Sounds to me like the multi-burial function is 'masking' 2 signals instead of just 1.
Could easily happen with any beacon. All avalanche beacons transmit 457kHz RF pulses with a 10.1 mark / space ratio. Once you get multiple beacons transmitting at the same time there is a very real risk that pulses from separate beacons overlap. There is no way to reliably solve this problem with signal processing (unless the standards were changed).
Another risk of the 'mask function' (S1,3+,Pieps,Pulse) is that beacons can sometimes become unmasked as the relative pulse phases drift over a couple of minutes.
Basically multiple burials need practise and skill.
Generally its recommended to turn beacons off when you find them if at all possible.
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Haggis_Trap, it masks the first two victims successfully. The display reflects this masking and shows one victim unmasked. Strangely enough, when victims two and three were within 3 metres of each other, I didn't have a problem finding the third victim, even though their signals would have been overlapping.
Prior to this thread, I wasn't aware of the shape and behaviour of the signals. Will do some research to understand fully how the signals work. Hopefully, that will make the task easier when I do another session with multiple burials.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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waynos, from your first link:
Quote: |
Now for the problem: the directional arrow can swing back and forth wildly (even at 90-degree extremes) when just at the point when a beacon should behave very reliably. |
That's exactly what Big Paua's 3+ was doing today.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Haggis_Trap wrote: |
...Generally its recommended to turn beacons off when you find them if at all possible. |
In an actual avalanche situation where you have multiple searchers as well as multiple burials, wouldn't the more likely scenario be that you will proceed to the other victims while the the first victim is still being dug out. So, you wouldn't have the opportunity to turn off the first victim's beacon before you start searching for the other victims?
The other thought that came to mind today: if you are a lone searcher with at least two victims, what is the recommended process? Do you try to locate both victims before trying to dig them out? Or do you locate the first victim, dig that person out, then proceed with locating the second victim?
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Zero-G wrote: |
Haggis_Trap, it masks the first two victims successfully. The display reflects this masking and shows one victim unmasked |
Yip - the mask function works by ignoring the time slots that the located beacon(s) are transmitting 457 kHz pulses on.
If one of the the 'still to be found' beacons happens to be transmitting with approx the same phase then it can accidently become masked - therefore requiring a reboot.
This link explains in more detail....
http://beaconreviews.com/transceivers/MultipleBurials.asp
The only way to completly eliminate this issue would be if beacons transmitted completly unique codes.
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locate the first victim, dig that person out, then proceed with locating the second victim? |
^ This.
Multi-burials really are worst case scenario.
You need to clear airways as fast as possible - so best to get one person out alive if possible.
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You know it makes sense.
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I was wondering about these comments about the 3+ on wildsnow. I'm beginning to think that a tracker 2 is the way to go, it is simple, effective and with practice it will also cope with multiple burials. There is an interesting debate going on about whether you even need a multi burial function. BCA certainly don't think so, what do the Snow Heads think?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Pedantica wrote: |
waynos, from your first link:
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Now for the problem: the directional arrow can swing back and forth wildly (even at 90-degree extremes) when just at the point when a beacon should behave very reliably. |
That's exactly what Big Paua's 3+ was doing today. |
We had experience of that as well. Only happened on the limit of the beacons search radius though, and it happened with three different brands/models. Was put down to picking up the signal on plane but not quite figuring which direction. Either stop and let it figure direction out, or keep moving. If signal is lost, you're going the wrong way.
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Poster: A snowHead
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shoogly,
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Either stop and let it figure direction out, or keep moving
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We couldn't decide which was the least time-wasting of those two options!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Quote: |
The other thought that came to mind today: if you are a lone searcher with at least two victims, what is the recommended process? Do you try to locate both victims before trying to dig them out? Or do you locate the first victim, dig that person out, then proceed with locating the second victim?
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Dig out the first one you find/get to. Better one lives on dies, than both die in the time it would take to just locate them.
Out of interest, how long does the reboot take - do you just mean turn off then on, or is it more complex?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Pedantica wrote: |
shoogly,
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Either stop and let it figure direction out, or keep moving
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We couldn't decide which was the least time-wasting of those two options! |
Hopefully you may have some other clues - watching the slide path/kit left on the surface etc, in which case you may as well start heading in the direction you think best in the meantime.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Yip - the mask function works by ignoring the time slots that the located beacon(s) are transmitting 457 kHz pulses on.
If one of the the 'still to be found' beacons happens to be transmitting with approx the same phase then it can accidently become masked - therefore requiring a reboot. |
Ahhh.
Good grief, I should have read the manual more closely, that explanation makes it very clear!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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clarky999, yes indeed, I appreciate that visual clues might help.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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clarky999, reboot is just turning it off and then on again. The 3+ takes ten seconds to boot up, run a self test and go into transmit mode. One click of a button puts it into search mode. So, about 12 seconds in total.
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^ I would have guessed that switching from search > transmit > search should do the trick ?
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Zero-G, Cheers.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Haggis_Trap, I'll try that next time.
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clarky999 wrote: |
Quote: |
The other thought that came to mind today: if you are a lone searcher with at least two victims, what is the recommended process? Do you try to locate both victims before trying to dig them out? Or do you locate the first victim, dig that person out, then proceed with locating the second victim?
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Dig out the first one you find/get to. Better one lives on dies, than both die in the time it would take to just locate them.
Out of interest, how long does the reboot take - do you just mean turn off then on, or is it more complex? |
In most cases, you wouldn't have that many people under the snow and if you did, you'd very likely be in a situation where mountain rescue + dogs were involved.
Personal beacons are normally used in small off piste groups.
Of course, it interesting to try them our in multiple scenarios.
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