 Poster: A snowHead
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I'm trying to work out what, if anything, to do with the kids lessons in January and in the run up 
The boys will be 11 by then and are pretty good skiers, but differ in approach
Boy 1 likes going fast, is confident (fearless) but lacks a little in style - passed his ESF Bronze last year, failed to get the Gold at Easter (there isn't a silver)
Boy 2 - watches and copies and has it spot on, passed his ESF Gold at Easter
Girl (9) - was in ESF 3* but was dropped to 2* which she passed - again! She was reverting to step turns from having got pretty good at parallels - the poor snow was a large contributory factor in this.
Boy 2 can only now go onto competition classes or Adult in the ESF scheme of things - neither of which appeal to him
Now the options which spring to mind are:
1. Don't bother
They can all ski well and is an area we know, so we can just ski as a family. Pros of this - it saves me money, useful as I don't have a FT job lined up yet! Cons - no skiing on our own, it won't solve daughters bad habits
2. ESF Again
Pros - I like that branch, gives me some time alons, not prohibitively costly. Cons - if they fail again it will destroy their liking for skiing (maybe)
3. Family Private Lesson
I like the idea of a group lesson for the 5 of us, it wouldn't hurt the parents to get some tips to. But it ain't cheap!!!!
For any of the above I'd like to get daughter some lessons before we go, but there only seems to be very pricy private lessons available. The only online lessons would seem to be very basic - unless I am missing something.
Now to be honest - I'm only typing all this out to try and clear it up in my own mind. But if anyone has any ideas I'd welcome them
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Cons - if they fail again it will destroy their liking for skiing (maybe)
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our neighbours, out in France, have 3 girls who have skied for years, and done the ESF stages. It was not that unusual for one or other of them to fail a level - and they didn't seem too bothered. Disappointed, but it didn't put them off. there was no expectation that each time, they would "move up" a level - and these were kids who skied quite a lot, not just once or twice a year.
Provided they are used to that system, and realise that it's a big step up from one level to another (and they're not the only ones "failing") it needn't destroy their liking for skiing - provided nobody makes too big a deal of it.
What do the kids themselves want to do?
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| Quote: |
What do the kids themselves want to do?
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Mess about on jumps and bumps edge of piste and make dad look stupid 
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The french are so clinical about it too aren't they, when my daughter failed her Etoile D'Or the first time (there was a ringer, her instructor's sister, in the race) they just read everone's names out followed by Oui or Non!
I shared a week of lessons with my daughter the next year (she'd got her Gold later the previous winter) and the trouble is that kids and adults learn diifferently. It was with easiski and not being one to beat about the bush she said that I'd held my daughter back and she would have learnt more without me 
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Boris, not sure a private lesson for the 5 of you would be a good idea if all are at different stages in their skiing.
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Boris, A couple of ideas for you.....ski as a family part of the time and start the kids on the darkside to give you a bit of your own skiing time  Or try an ESI school if there's one nearby as I'm pretty sure that their system has two branches after the main medals; one branch into competition like the ESF but the other into freestyle and freeride which might interest the kids more if they don't fancy competition.
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In your position I'd look to see if there is an International Ski school option in the resort you are going to. Your kids would then end up with a different badge and there would be less repetition. You would also have a bit of time to yourselves in the morning.
We have used a mixture of ESF and ESI so far and on the whole our children have got more out of the ESI lessons. The ESI instructors seem to take the kids down more challenging slopes and if the children are doing better than expected they might be able to get the next medal up by the end of the week.
The ESF have good points but can be quite frustrating. Eg. This year our daughter (5) skied happily with the 1 star class but they said from the outset she would not get the 1 star award due to being too young and too short to get on the chairlift unaided. Our son age 8 did 3 star and was able to do everything necessary for the 3 star award. However he missed the last 2 days due to illness so they said he had not put in enough hours for the award. We do not want to pay out for them to do the same level on our next holiday so will go back to ESI lessons.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Mon 14-11-11 21:56; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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start the kids on the darkside
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what a good idea - if they'd like to do that.
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We do not want to pay out for them to do the same level on our next holiday
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I did a week's course with an independent school, in their so-called "top group" some years ago. It was very frustrating, as only 2 of us were at the supposedly required level (parallel skiing on red runs). There were 4 really, really, useless women who were doing that level because they had moved up a level each year. they held up the whole class because they were desperately slow and fell over constantly once the snow was anything other than perfect. Then they were so unfit and overweight they couldn't damn well get up again. They couldn't ski parallel even on easy blue runs. The ski school should really have moved them, but didn't.
There's really quite a big gap between the written descriptions of the different "levels" in ski schools (whether ESFs or ESIs) and it's unrealistic to expect either kids or adults to go up one of those levels in one week a year.
I don't see any problem with repeating levels - otherwise, if there are (say) five levels, anyone who has done one week a year, for 5 years, would have nothing left to learn to be able to perform consistently at that top level. A very few people might have the sheer athletic ability to do that, but very few.
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You know it makes sense.
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For what its worth my suggestion is - go and have a holiday. Ski together. Enjoy yourseves. If you want to ski on your own for morning leave the kids at home or one looks after the kids while the other has a blast. Les Arcs in a fantastic place for such mixed ability skiing with lots of alternatives from lift to lift. You could even let the kids do runs on their own while you stand proudly (and discretely) in the background. For example stop at the Pondrouse for a coffee and tell the kids to do a lap of 2300. My son gained so much independance in Les Arc, going to the shops, travelling about the resort etc from the age of 10 or 11. And relax - what is the worst they could do on their own in a ski resort.
Oh and I would second RobW's suggestion about joining the local ski club.
John
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Boris, seems to me that Boy1 is game but not good, Boy2 is good and Girl is OK but nervous. But what do they want to get from their holiday? Do they want to improve/ski with other kids or would they be just as happy to mess about with the family?
If Boy2 doesn't fancy competition classes this season and the other two aren't bothered either, why not just prat about together for a change? Does no harm just to have a relaxed holiday for a week - saves you cash, is fun, gives the kiddies time to consolidate and think about what they'd like to do in future.
And stop it with all that 'darkside' rubbish - do a day's boarding with them. They might like it. You might improve. Don't impose your ridiculous prejudices on your children.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Lizzard, I jest of course, I loved my boarding and will go back to it one day. I only returned to skiing when the boys started, as was easier to go with them.
Boy 1 is good, but not by the book good, hence not passing the gold
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| sarah wrote: |
| snowymum, agree, the ESF are sticklers, the ESI are a bit more laid back. |
I may have read this wrong, but saying that ESF are "sticklers" implies that they're somehow "mean" for not giving out a badge.
The French (and British) badge awards systems have a set of criteria that require that someone has to be able to do all, not "most", of the skills at the level. The French do tend to be black and white, but IMHO that's a good thing. Ski schools are rarely doing you a favour by giving out and undeserved badge as all it does is delay the inevitable.
There's nothing wrong with a child not moving up a level / badge every year and it gets much harder to do so as you move up the levels. It's just how the expectation's been set (by the parent) and is managed.
Sometimes the child not skiing as well as previously is that they've gone through a growth spurt between trips and are having to do a degree of "re-learning" in their new bodies. This is particularly evident around the two bigger growth spurts at 7(ish) and puberty.
Probably half the ski instructors I know have failed at least one module on the way to becoming qualified. One of them makes a point of telling kids that if he's not awarding them the next badge.
(Lights blue touch paper and exits...)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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FlyingStantoni, No, I don't think they're mean and I agree with all you wrote above ^^^  .
I meant that they are 'black and white' and that the kids gets all the ticks in the boxes at the test and gets the medal of that class level or he doesn't. They are stringent. That's no bad thing.
The ESI are more relaxed, they don't seem to have a formal test, the instructor forms an opinion during the week and awards the most appropriate medal at the end. Within a class the instructor may give out two or three medal levels.
Pros and cons to both approaches.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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AFAIK there isn't "an" ESI in the way that the ESF operates. If kids get a specific level in ESF in Resort A, then the ESF in resort B will know where they're at (like the French education system - v centralised).
My grandaughter started at 6 with three private lessons - very timid - tried hard but not a natural talent. She was given a little badge, which she was thrilled with, to say that she could kind of slide along and manage a snowplough now and then, which was about right. The badge to say that she could do controlled snowplough turns down a green run was withheld - quite rightly, because she couldn't - only now and then.
That was in one of the "ESI" schools but another ESI school might well have done things differently, and I'm sure the quality of ESI schools varies a lot (certainly the quality of instructors in ours does, and I have come to know the good ones over the years). At their best I think they're better than ESF but I wouldn't suggest that would always be the case.
I don't think any child who doesn't really, really, want to do competition should do so - it's scary. The eldest of our neighbours' girls "ought" to be going into competition but - beautiful skier as she is (and a beautiful girl, a joy to watch) she has no wish to race and is scared of going too fast.
Our kids, after their first years of ski school, wanted to muck around - preferably with other kids from the same chalet/hotel. So they mucked around. Two of them came back to enjoying some private lessons later, the third - a natural - spent a couple of seasons working in the Alps, one in Val d'Isere, sharing a flat with a BASS instructor and going out with the lads on their days off. He hasn't had a lesson since he was 8 but he is just not on the same planet as the rest of us, ski-wise. He would have been unhappy stuck in ski school for a week, I'm sure, unless he could have had private lessons and followed some young daredevil through the trees/over the bumps.
They didn't, truth to tell, much enjoy "skiing as a family" - they were better than us, faster and wanted to do different things, with other youngsters. They did trees, tracks, gullies and lumps and bumps. We didn't. Now, as adults, they do enjoy skiing all together and as I've now had so many lessons I'm as good as two of them. The third does enjoy skiing with us but he usually does it backwards, or on one leg, or both. 
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| pam w wrote: |
AFAIK there isn't "an" ESI in the way that the ESF operates. If kids get a specific level in ESF in Resort A, then the ESF in resort B will know where they're at (like the French education system - v centralised).
My grandaughter started at 6 with three private lessons - very timid - tried hard but not a natural talent. She was given a little badge, which she was thrilled with, to say that she could kind of slide along and manage a snowplough now and then, which was about right. The badge to say that she could do controlled snowplough turns down a green run was withheld - quite rightly, because she couldn't - only now and then.
That was in one of the "ESI" schools but another ESI school might well have done things differently, and I'm sure the quality of ESI schools varies a lot (certainly the quality of instructors in ours does, and I have come to know the good ones over the years). At their best I think they're better than ESF but I wouldn't suggest that would always be the case.
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This is not correct.
The ESI has its own levels and medals in the same way that the ESF does. They correspond approximately with the ESF levels (and Swiss levels and prob Austrian/Italian etc etc). The ESI issue a little 'passport' same as the ESF do. The child's level is marked in the passport, so child can move from the ESI in Resort A seamlessly to the ESI in Resort B. The ESI's medal structure is standardised in the same way as the ESF's.
Link to ESI medals/levels and descriptions is here
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FlyingStantoni, that assumes I can ski myself of course
TBH the other problem I have with my daughter, is that she likes to keep up with the boys. This kind of involves a manic high speed snowplough!!!!!! So she may be better off with out us.
I think before doing anything, a few trips to MK are called for so I can see who thy are doing.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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sarah, some of that might be a tad theoretical. There was no equivalence of "level" in the course I did, nobody was moved, and nobody received (or failed) any badge/level at the end. Same applies to other people I know who have done group lessons. Must ask my friend Stéphane, next time I have a private lesson with him what level he thinks I am, and how much they stick to them/use them.
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pam w, with respect this is a thread about kids lessons, I can't quite see how your experience in an adult group is the same. The experience you describe could have occurred in any ski school, ESI, ESF or any other. It is a known fact that fewer adults (past beginners) go for lessons so ski schools don't have viable groups at all the levels, hence people at differing levels are put together. Although I am sorry to hear you didn't receive your medal
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Pam W - I haven't had any adult lessons with ESI but the children's ones appear to follow the same pattern as ESF. The children ski in groups according to their level and are given a medal at the end of the week. Last time we used ESI ski school my son did silver level lessons. Had he not reached the standard of silver by the end of the week he would have been given the lower bronze medal. However he reached the silver level. My daughter started in a group aiming for the souris. However she ended the week being able to do linked turns etc. so was given the cristal award. This was in Montgenevre with Apeak. We have also used ESI (Snow Bizz) in Puy St vincent and they also followed the system of medals in the link.
In our experience the ESI tend to have smaller groups and this is one of the reasons my children have made more progress with them. From what I have seen there is slightly more flexibility with ESI in that your child can end up getting a higher medal. However I assume they still need to tick all the boxes to get the medal. Without seeing a complete list of the ESF and ESI criteria for each medal I'm not sure how much the levels differ between the two ski schools.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
| Interestingly, IIRC the BASI Snowlife awards are much more "tick box" than these, although I can't find the criteria. |
Not any more! Snowlife was revamped this summer, and the new task descriptions are much more generic, for example, for a level 4 (or 9) skier they are:
What can I do?? I am able to ski more quickly and I am feeling balanced against my outside ski earlier in each turn. My turning is more fluid and my tracks are S shaped. When making a plough-parallel turns my skis now naturally want to become parallel in or even before the middle of each turn.
Compare this with the previous "do 8 out of the 10 following tasks...".
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You know it makes sense.
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Thanks RobW. Quite an interesting change.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Boris wrote: |
| Quote: |
What do the kids themselves want to do?
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Mess about on jumps and bumps edge of piste and make dad look stupid |
And there is your answer. Ski with them yourself. They will get bored of you by the end of the week as they will be so much better. Try and avoid cruising but keep their terrain and habits varied and the fun factor high. Kids ti9tting about on the piste edge and bumps teaches them so much good stuff.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Boris,
the Arc1950 Spirit mob run a " backcountry" scheme, which might appeal to some of your brood - has been designed because so many UK owners go repeatedly to the village, and therefore are more advanced than the "one week a year" peer groups of a similar age. Have a look at their website, see if it might be of interest? http://www.spirit1950.com/en/
[edit] oops just checked age restriction, need to be 12 might be useful for others tho. Sorry
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FAQ
. An outdoor artificial slope would give them the best opportunity to progress (due to quieter slopes) and have less impact on your wallet that a 'dome which (IME) don't seem to have such a club ethos (Hemel maybe excepted).
