Love skiing, about 45 weeks experience....still very prone to vertigo-like experiences on ridges, steep bowls and cable cars
Used to ski mainly in the USA because the trees broke up the sight lines
Any ideas as to how I can get rid of it....or improve the symptoms (freezing up, clinging to the sides of ridges/bottom of gondolas etc)??
PS....Not joking....Would like to really free up my skiing
Thanks
rich
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
PantherX50, no clever ideas, sorry, but I do know what you mean. I had one experience like that, out of the blue, on a cliff top path in Cornwall - never before or since. Very unpleasant. I just clung to the side away from the sea and couldn't move other than to shuffle along on my bottom. I also have a brother in law who suffers quite badly - he skis with us sometimes and it's just as well I know the area well - I have to think very, very, hard about avoiding "edges" . That's on easy pistes - we don't do steep bowls.
We find that after he gets freaked out, his skiing goes to pieces - I had to ski back and get the car, one time two years ago, on my own in a snowstorm, leaving brother in law and the OH in a cosy restaurant. so for him, the important thing is to avoid scary bits, and ski well within his (quite limited) competence. Then he really enjoys it - but it's a real handicap, even for someone who just likes to potter on easy pistes.
Hope you get some better ideas which will more useful than mere sympathy.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
hi
i REALLY suffer from this, i have been 'caught-out' a few times and had to take my ski's off and walk down if there is no other option, i am an intermediate skier but once the 'fear' sets in my skiing ability literally goes to pieces. It seems i'm fine if i can't sort of see how high up i am, i.e if the slope just drops away and i can see say, right to the bottom of the valley, i'm in a mess....... we've figured out a couple of things that can help if i find myself on such a piste...
if you are skiing in a group try to stay in the middle if you can, this will help you to keep moving and you can then focus on the person in front, not how high you are....
when travelling down the piste, if not in a group or with one other try to pick a point ACROSS the piste focus on skiing towards it, again trying to break your sight line away from how high you are, even if its just a piste marker!
i totally sympathise with this, its screwed me up quite a few times, i'm so afraid of it happening i won't even attempt some higher runs in resort because i'm worried that i will freeze up and get stuck...... i'll be interested to see what other people say!
Get a job as a roofer and you will be cured of your vertigo in a week, then you will probably die walking off a roof (this is what a roofer told me, the apprentices were very careful for the first week, then they forgot about the heights and that was the most dangerous moment for them)
Try not to look down too much
I sympathise, I suffer from vertigo.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Inner ear problems will not cause this. It's a psychological issue if you don't get it when provoked by posture changes, but only whe there are visual stimuli.
Lots of approaches. But best to hear from someone who has beaten it.
PantherX50, Mr HH suffers from this...I've spent many a time waiting at the bottom of a slope waiting for him to get his head round doing another turn...there doesn't seem to be any specific cause or any cure! He has dulled the symptoms simply by persisting at doing the things that make him react but there are places and lifts that he simply avoids because he just won't enjoy being there. If it'a any reassurance he now does touring and has been to places that he would never have imagined possible...the desire to ski outweighs his fear!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
It's strange, I have massive fear of height and vertigo issues, but never with my skis on (apart from on parts certain lifts, like going over the ridge on the way up Schindlergrat in St Anton, but this is pretty rare, probably through so much exposure to and use of lifts) - although I absolutely shat myself walking this summer over terrain that I've often happily skied without even thinking about it. I've also had similar experiences kayaking - I've been completely unable to jump off the same waterfall I blithely paddled minutes before. I guess for me it's a control thing - if I know I can control myself 'down the height,' directly manage the situation and not have to rely on anyone/anything else for safety I'm fine.
So maybe practising loads on short sections of steep terrain, starting with less of a drop below and building up to longer pitches may help. Maybe start with faces you can traverse onto, rather than have to start by going over a ridge?
I'm experimenting with getting into climbing atm. Still too scared to do most of the proper routes (although occasionally bitchslap myself into it), but for now I'm concentrating on building up skills bouldering, which will hopefully allow me to build up that sense of control on the main routes, then hopefully expose myself to enough heights to kick the thing fully. Fingers crossed...
After all it is free
After all it is free
I suffer from vertigo quite badly. Im fine as long as i keep skiing and dont survey a steep run for too long. I get it badly on cable cars/gondolas the Bellecotte one in La Plagne i cant stand. But i do love the skiing on the glacier... I do just try to force myself to do it and luckily don't find it too debilitating. But the worse times are walking on ridges on ski boots or that bloody platform on the top of the Cime Caron... But sadly i have found no cure. I just try to get on with it...
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
clarky999, I've had exactly the same experience of fearing to walk on terrain I wouldn't think twice about skiing on. For me, I think it's mostly because I feel more stable on my skis than on my feet. In the Dolomites, once, doing a hairy traverse (in summer, walking) I tried to visualise the slope being snowy and me having my skis on. That seemed to work quite well, maybe learning some visualisation techniques would help the OP?
Twitchy87,
Quote:
Im fine as long as i keep skiing and dont survey a steep run for too long
Me too. If I stop too long before a steep pitch I'm done for.
I don't think I'll ever do the Vallee Blanche, at least not from the Chamonix side. The fear of walking along the arrete, especially in ski boots, is just too strong.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Pedantica wrote:
clarky999, I've had exactly the same experience of fearing to walk on terrain I wouldn't think twice about skiing on. For me, I think it's mostly because I feel more stable on my skis than on my feet.
+1
In particular I hate walking on rocks in ski boots with a drop below.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
PantherX50, once was climbing a ridge and vertigo got so strong I simply fell onto the ground in front of me. This was a real help, because I realized that falling over (mind you, this ridge was not a knife-edge, probably 2-3 metres wide), doesn't need to mean falling off. Anyway I still get it, but somehow it's not as debilitating having actually fallen.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Theres a technique called Neuro Linguistic Programming (NLP) which can help overcome fears, phobia's and work on confidence. NLP in simplistic terms can be described as the art of using language to affect the mind.
I'm a qualified NLP Practitioner and Ski Instructor, I have had students which suffer from vertigo in the past and have tried a few NLP techniques with very succesful outcomes.
A company called www.skiwizards.com use NLP Techniques and are qualifed Master Practitioners.
I live in Somerset (week) and Leicestershire (weekends) so if your anywhere close I'd be happy to help!..... no charge!
Just be open minded about the techniques and results.
Mark
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
thepirate wrote:
Theres a technique called Neuro Linguistic Programming
NLP is excellent for getting babes into bed too, it is like having administrator access to their brains. Hey but lets keep this between ourselves, ok?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I mentioned this in another recent thread and don't want to sound like I'm going on about it, but working at Go Ape (a high ropes course) we get a LOT of people close to backing out on the first rope ladder. We do honour a full refund if you don't make it onto the course (and a gift voucher if they get on but don't complete the first course, but we don't tell people that so keep that quiet ) after your training and safety brief. Ok, so some just don't want to do it and want a refund however a good few are people with vertigo issues who want to but start having an attack. Through persuasion and support we get most on and although some miss out our highest site (36 feet, some courses around the country are higher and lower) they all come back saying they have achieved a real goal. They may not be cured but it has given them some encouragement to tackle things they thought they couldn't do and now have the confidence to get on that ski lift they always refused to go on!
I'd just like to point out that the participant is responsible for making sure they are always connected to the safety system and they do attach and unattach themselves throughout the course. This gives the participants the biggest sense of achievment. Most other high ropes courses are a continueous single connection. Most courses are now closing down for the season (some are open till Dec 3rd) so a little to late for this season! Hope this does not come across as a chance to get free promo (I'm an underpaid instructor who may not even go back next season!) but the fact I enjoy getting people through, what to them is a massive challange, proves it can help with height issues.
Something similar might be worth a look!
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Pedant alert!
From the description of freezing up etc, what you are describing is a fear of heights. Thats ACROPHOBIA, not vertigo. Vertigo is a medical condition that affects balance and has only been assciated with acrophobia as a result of the movie.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Something like climbing might help, in terms of exposure it's much, much greater than anything you can expect on skis. Then again it might terrify you stupid and make things worse.
I'd guess that pushing into the uncomfortable zone with skis on is the way to go. Everyone get's scared of the situation they are in at some point and the best way I've personally found of dealing with it is to concentrate hard on doing the right thing. It's quite strange how quickly things normalise once you realise you can do something competently.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
meh is right. If you can, get someone to take you to the local climbing wall for a few sessions top-roping easy routes. If you're scared of heights, you'll probably find you won't get more than a couple of metres off the ground the first route you try (your friend can lower you safely back to the ground when it all gets too much), but by the end of the first evening you should be able to get to the top of the wall, although it will probably feel really scary the first few times.
The more you go, the more you should get desensitised to the exposure, which should hopefully help in outdoor situations too. Better still if someone can take you climbing outdoors, but it's the wrong time of year for that now.
When I first started going up into the mountains I was pretty scared of heights and exposure (ending up crawling on my belly utterly terrified on walkable mountain ridges like Crib Goch on Snowdon). However, once I started climbing regularly, the fear steadily, and fairly quickly reduced. I can now move around on pretty much vertical rock faces a couple of hundred metres or more above the ground (albeit with a rope attaching me in some way to the rock) without even noticing the drop, and not feeling any fear or anxiety.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
thepirate wrote:
Theres a technique called Neuro Linguistic Programming (NLP)
However i'm an engineer by trade and have been for 20+yrs, so my previous views and learnings were very black and white...i would never accept anything that I didn't understand.
When I did the course I was amazed at the success rate but couldn't explain how it worked.... I just had to accept it. For sure it is all psychological but then so is the original fear is it not? If it works who cares? worth a try is it not?
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
manicpb, When I was working at Acorn I was supposed to occasionally (help to) run High Ropes sessions. I did manage to mentally-bitchslap myself round the low course, high course (twice for good measure) and even-higher-zip-wire course, but ended up having a full scale panic attack on the zip wire course (tiny little platforms between zip wires, on trees waving in the wind - the actual sliding bit was fine!). Beasted myself through that too, but luckily the centre manager decided to keep me running kayak and raft sessions instead of the high ropes - definitely for the best lol.
After all it is free
After all it is free
I used to suffer quite a bit from vertigo. I got over it by experience - in my case by going rock climbing (I was young once) and scrambling on steep terrain. The more I did, it seemed the more I realised that I could cope with the situation I was in. Of course, that didn't mean I could feel complacent about where I was in an exposed situation. Not suffering from vertigo didn't change a situation where a slip would mean a fall of 1000'. OTOH, I could get round a fear that might cause by telling myself that if I could cope with the terrain if it were just above ground level, I could cope with it at the exposure I was in.
What works for me may not work for you - but I hope that helps.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Thanks for the replies......
Like this one the best:
Quote:
Pull yourself together.
Will get through it, I guess still manage to do some touring and skinning etc, so not too bad
Closing eyes and listening to music seems to help....but not so useful on/off piste!
Cheers
Rich
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Another vote for climbing and abseiling here ; putting yourself into situations that trigger the fear response, and overcoming it. Fairly quickly (as said above) I overcame my (crippling) fears and have been ok ever since. It's worth noting that, for me at least, once you get the fear down to a manageable level; it stays down. I haven't done any climbing or abseiling for years now, and I know if I did it again I'd be scared, but my previous experience will kick in and the fact I know I'm likely to survive/be ok and happy at the end means I can overcome. The first part of an abseil is the worst for me, when the exposure [ability to see down a drop/height which triggers the vertigo] is at its highest, and when there's no weight on the rope... This was the point I typically froze up on and really struggled with.
Also a great tool is the trapeze part of most high-ropes courses ; climbing a totem pole notch by notch, then having to deal with the 360 degree exposure at the top (and it wobbling; truly pant wet tingly scary!) as you stand on it... And leap for the trapeze handle thing and swing... A few of these and gondolas/steeps won't be so scary.
NB: I don't think you can ever get rid of it totally - it's a primordial piece of hard-wired code warning you of danger... What you need to do is build evidence of feeling the fear, and managing it, so giving your brain evidence of surviving the danger, allowing your unconscious mind to draw on that in the future. Also your conscious mind could do with the help, but generally it's an irrational and unconscious fear that causes the problem, not a conscious mind issue
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Another vote for climbing and abseiling here ; putting yourself into situations that trigger the fear response, and overcoming it. Fairly quickly (as said above) I overcame my (crippling) fears and have been ok ever since. It's worth noting that, for me at least, once you get the fear down to a manageable level; it stays down. I haven't done any climbing or abseiling for years now, and I know if I did it again I'd be scared, but my previous experience will kick in and the fact I know I'm likely to survive/be ok and happy at the end means I can overcome. The first part of an abseil is the worst for me, when the exposure [ability to see down a drop/height which triggers the vertigo] is at its highest, and when there's no weight on the rope... This was the point I typically froze up on and really struggled with.
Also a great tool is the trapeze part of most high-ropes courses ; climbing a totem pole notch by notch, then having to deal with the 360 degree exposure at the top (and it wobbling; truly pant wet tingly scary!) as you stand on it... And leap for the trapeze handle thing and swing... A few of these and gondolas/steeps won't be so scary.
NB: I don't think you can ever get rid of it totally - it's a primordial piece of hard-wired code warning you of danger... What you need to do is build evidence of feeling the fear, and managing it, so giving your brain evidence of surviving the danger, allowing your unconscious mind to draw on that in the future. Also your conscious mind could do with the help, but generally it's an irrational and unconscious fear that causes the problem, not a conscious mind issue
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
thepirate wrote:
Quote:
Pseudo-scientific BS!
Personal opinion accepted!
However i'm an engineer by trade and have been for 20+yrs, so my previous views and learnings were very black and white...i would never accept anything that I didn't understand.
When I did the course I was amazed at the success rate but couldn't explain how it worked.... I just had to accept it. For sure it is all psychological but then so is the original fear is it not? If it works who cares? worth a try is it not?
That's the point! There's no proof that it actually works. You only think it does because you paid to do a course and were looking for validation. All this really proves is that the course worked on you.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
JaMMi wrote:
Another vote for climbing and abseiling here ; putting yourself into situations that trigger the fear response, and overcoming it.
I agree. Desensitisation is he way ahead.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:
That's the point! There's no proof that it actually works. You only think it does because you paid to do a course and were looking for validation. All this really proves is that the course worked on you.
I didn't pay for the course......work did (well the tax payer actually) !
As stated before my validation is that I've used the the techniques before on students with positive feedback and outcomes. I also use the theory in my own Personal Development and it works for me, however I do understand that its not for everyone.
You see that little thing that Jonny Wilkinson does with his hands before he takes a goal kick? Thats called an 'Anchor' it works by association of previous experiences to create a calm state of mind when performance is required. An ideal technique to be used at the top of a black run when the individual really wants to nail it but is feeling a little nervous.
These are just additional tools which can be used in coaching any sport or individual, they are not the be all and end all. take them or leave them but worth considering.
I also agree with the other posts with regard to increased exposure, however this must be controlled and progressive otherwise it will have the opposite effect.
good luck:-)
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
thepirate wrote:
Quote:
That's the point! There's no proof that it actually works. You only think it does because you paid to do a course and were looking for validation. All this really proves is that the course worked on you.
I didn't pay for the course......work did (well the tax payer actually) !
As stated before my validation is that I've used the the techniques before on students with positive feedback and outcomes. I also use the theory in my own Personal Development and it works for me, however I do understand that its not for everyone.
You see that little thing that Jonny Wilkinson does with his hands before he takes a goal kick? Thats called an 'Anchor' it works by association of previous experiences to create a calm state of mind when performance is required. An ideal technique to be used at the top of a black run when the individual really wants to nail it but is feeling a little nervous.
These are just additional tools which can be used in coaching any sport or individual, they are not the be all and end all. take them or leave them but worth considering.
I also agree with the other posts with regard to increased exposure, however this must be controlled and progressive otherwise it will have the opposite effect.
good luck:-)
So, in these times of austerity the taxpayer is founding your pseudo-science courses? How did that work exactly?
As for JW's hand clenching: there are many mind techniques that people use. I quick, and free, search of the internet or visit to the library are all that's required, rather than expensive and questionable courses.
The idea that people can run around claiming to be 'Master Practitioners' of something that is a complete con, is just ridiculous. NPL is no better than homoeopathy.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
PJSki, I wouldn't be too surprised they still fund homeopathy on the NHS.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
meh wrote:
PJSki, I wouldn't be too surprised they still fund homeopathy on the NHS.
This fecking country!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Get some easy UK(Spring and summer) ridge walks done. Striding edge for example, where you can add or decrease the exposure. Try a scramble up Tryfan in North Wales and a leap across Adam and Eve. (Its actually a step, but the exposure is interesting.) Jacks Rake in the Lakes, all grade one scrambles which give the impression of great exposure without much danger. The more you do the easier they get, at least that's my experience. First time I walked across Crib Goch on the Snowdon Horseshoe, I was clinging to every bit of rock I could get my hands on. I now walk across the top of most of it, albeit nowhere near as nimbly as this chap.
And those techniques are a form of NLP. So you agree with me? it does work:-)
put simply, NLP can be described as an exploration of how we think, communicate and behave, so that we are able to model, improve and replicate great performance and get results we want in life. It is directly related to the growth in our ability to coach ourselves and others, model excellent performance, influence, negotiate and persuade. The techniques allow us to overcome fear, limiting beliefs or emotional barriers to overcome barriers and reach inner potential.
Like I said before, like many things in life its effectiveness is down to personal opinion (only mathmatics is black and white!), however many people believe in the benefits and it has now been accepted into main stream psychotherapy and regulated by the Association of Neuro-Linguistic Practitioners, very much like our beloved skiing coaching is regulated by BASI!
Kingston University also run a Masters Degree in NLP with academic underpinning! Do you also think that these academics are frauds too?
I would recommend the book 'NLP PRINCIPLES IN PRACTICE' by Lisa Wake. In her book she evaluates the techniques and backs them up with rationale and evidence based understanding.
I've given you evidence, examples and academic literature to back up my beliefs and understanding. Please feel free to air your view, however I'd recommend that its backed up by evidence, otherwise it is just that.........your view!
ps. for info, the military paid for my NLP Practitioners Course and I have subtly and succesfully used the techniques on myself and with coleagues whilst working in a very difficult enviroment as well as on the mountain coaching personnel...... So I feel that its tax payers money well spent! (and I pay taxes too!)
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
NLP 'practitioners' claim to be able to treat schizophrenia. Totally ridiculous of them.
As for sources to back up my opinion; as you know there are many highly respected people have been extremely critical of NLP and its claims. I can't be bothered to even begin to list the evidence in favour of my view that NLP is pseudo-science. And even if I did bother, you clearly aren't objective enough.
Kingston 'University'? You're having a laugh.
If some of NLP works for you, then fine, but its not scientific.
There is more than a whiff of BS to NLP. A lot of seems self-belief and poorly evidenced, with some basic hypnosis and suggestion techniques and some cultish elements. This may be more about the people who promote it than the technique itself. In my field it has made some progress as a communication tool. Then there is its use as a chat-up technique by pick-up artists....
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
NLP is a load of dangly bits. You can get a degree in homeopathy but that doesn't mean it works.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
I do just try to force myself to do it and luckily don't find it too debilitating. But the worse times are walking on ridges on ski boots or that bloody platform on the top of the Cime Caron... But sadly i have found no cure. I just try to get on with it...
) after your training and safety brief. Ok, so some just don't want to do it and want a refund however a good few are people with vertigo issues who want to but start having an attack. Through persuasion and support we get most on and although some miss out our highest site (36 feet, some courses around the country are higher and lower) they all come back saying they have achieved a real goal. They may not be cured but it has given them some encouragement to tackle things they thought they couldn't do and now have the confidence to get on that ski lift they always refused to go on!
!
