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Charge for trying on ski boots....

 Poster: A snowHead
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My best mate was back from Australia this week, and said that over there all retailers now charge $50 to try on ski boots, which is deducted if they are then bought. Apparently this is because of cusomers then ordering their boots online more cheaply. He also said that by ordering them from US websites they can save over $100, so it's worth paying the $50 anyway....
Anybody know of any UK dealers charging to try stuff on?!
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I'm sure most of them would if you ask them to...
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he might save money in oz by buying form the USA but over here prices are a load less than the USA prices unless you are buying end of line

we don't charge to try boots on, we do however work by appointment, and i hope that if someone takes the time and books an appointment with us that unless we do not have something suitable that they will actually buy a boot
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Unless you have a model ffot & sole how could you really expect to get a good fit by purchasing online?
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Agree with Bob. I won't even buy street shoes online because depending on the style/manufacturer i can be either a 9, 10 or 11. Wouldn't dream of buying ski boots online even if i had tried them on in a shop, there are too many adjustments what with footbeds etc. It's one of those purchases where you really do need the retailer's expertise.
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it is interesting there are other markets, which do this, one such item is on childrens car seats there are now many retailers who charge to fit car seats and try and avoid the on line purchase after the car seat has been fitted by a qualified retailer.

The however on this is that in the Nursery industry there is now a growing practice of suppliers haveing a trading agreement with retailers which they have to sign to be able to sell that brand of products.

Back in 1999 I helped setup the first European Trading Agreement for one of the major brands, its all quite legal as long as you get it approved by the EU and then you have to treat EVERY retailer the same across the whole of the EU, it has its benefits but also its down sides

The ski industry is way behind on this area, the other interesting thing is that there are skiing brands which becuase of their % market share across Europe, should and could be doing this, but choose not to, because of this some suppliers are in breach of a whole host of EU trading regulations.

So what is my Point? If supplers have a retailer trading agreement they can legally stop people trading across boarders, such as above selling from Europe to the US or other none EU countries, but can not stop any retailer selling across the EU geographic area.
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How do you get online bootfitting?

Teledildonics is one thing but telesmallzookeeping? Mind boggles...
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Quote:

The ski industry is way behind on this area, the other interesting thing is that there are skiing brands which becuase of their % market share across Europe, should and could be doing this, but choose not to, because of this some suppliers are in breach of a whole host of EU trading regulations.

That is Protectionism and Cartels. If I can cross boarders, why can't goods, it sounds like a step too far to me! Power to the politicians who want to get some of the EU regulations reduced.
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I don't really understand why shops keep stock of anything. Why not have one of each size of each boot in stock, customers can try them on at their leisure in the shop, then once a model is confirmed as correct they can go online and buy the boot from a distributor that has a big warehouse and no customer facing retail, just credit card payments and couriers shipping boots to customers.

They then take said boot along with their feet to a fitter if they want, to their local S&R or EB if they want, they either pay for an improved fit or they don't.

The person ordering the boots has to put a reference number in when ordering online from the distributor, and the retailer is paid a fixed amount for helping them to find a customer for that brand of boot (or that distributor) and it completely separates the action of buying a boot and getting a boot fitted.

If, of course, you want a really good fit, then you go to a boot fitter and get their advice before ordering from the distributor. If you don't, then you order from the distributor and see what you get. If the distributor gets lots of returns, they reduce the amount of money that is paid to the shop. This provides an incentive for the shop to get the fit right.

I thought about doing this for clothes some time ago, where you can go in to a "tailors" and they measure you, provide the size they think you need, you try it on, then they show you the colours and materials available (though the colour and material you want probably won't be available in the specific size you want), and then it is shipped from a big warehouse direct to your door or for collection from the tailor within 7 days - it removes the problem that I frequently have where a shop either has what I want, but not in the right size, or doesn't have stock of the colour I want to see. Less stock on the high street, more stock in warehouses. It also means I don't need to keep going back to the tailor, I can just keep ordering online, and the tailor gets a small percentage reward for finding the right size etc. If I change size, I go back to the tailor. If I want to see this season's colours/materials/fit I go back to the tailor. Simples. Means I can shop on the internet with the advantage of being able to try things on beforehand, and to run an outlet you just need a small shop that people visit by appointment if required, instead of a big high street shop costing thousands in order to hold enough stock of every imaginable size, colour, design and shape. Also means that a small shop can have a range from the smallest to the biggest, offer every colour imaginable, and customer doesn't have to visit several times to get the right thing, and they know that when they order from live stock shown on the website they know they will have their goods next day.
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Dypcdiver wrote:
Quote:

The ski industry is way behind on this area, the other interesting thing is that there are skiing brands which becuase of their % market share across Europe, should and could be doing this, but choose not to, because of this some suppliers are in breach of a whole host of EU trading regulations.

That is Protectionism and Cartels. If I can cross boarders, why can't goods, it sounds like a step too far to me! Power to the politicians who want to get some of the EU regulations reduced.


Eh? EU law means that the Protectionism and Cartels you describe aren't possible - because of EU law, I can buy from France, Germany, Italy, any other EU country, and manufacturers and retailers can't work together to prevent me from being able to do that.

If you got rid of the EU regulations, then manufacturers and retailers could charge us a load of money in the UK for something that is much cheaper than in other EU countries, and when we try and order from those countries the shops hands would be tied.

This is yet another reason why I don't think we should have a referendum on the EU. Because 90% of people just don't understand what it is actually doing for us, instead of believing that it is all about bananas having to be straight, Spanish fishermen stealing all our fish, and other nonsense they read in the Daily Mail.
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Dypcdiver,
Quote:

That is Protectionism and Cartels. If I can cross boarders, why can't goods, it sounds like a step too far to me! Power to the politicians who want to get some of the EU regulations reduced.


This area is not new its been going on for years, it happend because of distributors and suppliers, in Europe saying to retailers that because "Mr Shop" was selling their brands in a a specific town, then they would not supply any other retailers in that town or lets say a 50km area around that retailer.

Thats None Competitive and not in the interest of the consumer, so the EU band it years ago.

Monium, Love it a combination of "drop ship" , Argos and a whole lot of other stuff thrown in, one little thing that is pretty difficult is "live Stock control" even Tesco.com has not cracked that one yet Laughing Laughing Laughing
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livetoski wrote:
......they can legally stop people trading across boarders


Boarders don't half come in for stick, innit?
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Red Leon, Laughing Laughing force of habit, no edit needed wink
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I don't see how bricks n mortar retailers survive long term in most sectors unless they offer something different. Some seem to be getting there e.g. S&R are apparently offering to match any European online price andpresumably hoping that the brands keep other retailers in line(doesn't stop their catalogue prices being ambitious however!). For niche interests it would appear to lie in offering real added value expertise which means owner/operator enthusiasts rather than the Saturday boy I think or else you're offering a pile it high/sell cheap/customer bargain hunt like TK Maxx, Primark and the supermarkets etc
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livetoski wrote:

Monium, Love it a combination of "drop ship" , Argos and a whole lot of other stuff thrown in, one little thing that is pretty difficult is "live Stock control" even Tesco.com has not cracked that one yet Laughing Laughing Laughing


I work for a global company that has cracked it. If we say it is in stock, it is in stock. Never found a complaint or problem from a customer ordering something that it says is in stock and isn't, but then we punish suppliers that make that kind of mistake, so they manage it very carefully. They do sometimes get surprised because we've got something they didn't think was in stock, but never the other way round. Then again, we spend millions of pounds every year on our website and stock control systems. Most companies spend millions of pounds dealing with the complaints from getting it wrong.

The trick is that the tailor is the one who does the ordering, in between appointments or walk-ins, and has the customer's number/e-mail address. If they go to place an order with HQ, they can see if it is in stock or not. If it isn't, they contact the customer before close of play to tell them, offer them an alternative, or the option of waiting until it is available. If I know men, they will have ordered 5 new shirts for the next few months, so waiting a couple of weeks for the right size, cuff style, or something like that is fine as long as they've got the other 4.

It also reduces the cost of shipping and environmental impact, because we won't be sending out hundreds of lorries to big stores every morning, noon and night, instead shipping from a central warehouse through couriers that will consolidate loads for several different customers in the same area to keep their costs down, or we send one van when required with the required stock to the tailor for customers to collect (or courier it same as we do to the customer, cost to us is the same)

I know. I should write a book or something. It's frickin brilliant. If only I had a few million to set it up. I suppose I could pitch it to a big internet brand a route to market, someone like Kaleidoscope or the like, and then offer to run it for them for a small fee...
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Monium, What you say makes a lot of sense. However one of the limiting factors is that some customers have an expectation that a shop should have an item in stock so they can purchase it a leave the shop with it in their hands.

A shop with no stock would be incredibly enticing for almost every retailer, the cost of holding things in a shop is huge, but if the customer makes the effort to go to a shop they may choose to pay the premium vs online and take it home so you can't eliminate store stock. Most savvy retailers are cottoning on to multichannel though, giving the customer the choice of take home, order from .com at the till if its out of stock or more convenient to get home delivery, or order at home and collect in store.
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Flet©h, how about if I can either undercut the high street (which I obviously can, running much smaller shops with no stock and much reduced delivery costs, reduced damaged goods from retail display etc) or offer a much better service at the same price. If the customer wants to leave with something in their hands, how about some money. I can live without the small percentage of customers that need to come home with 20 bags from a shopping trip, but then I suspect that most people would visit my luxury stores after visiting several other old fashioned shops so they come home with plenty to go through when they go home anyway.

Plus I don't want customers who want it all right now. If they value what we do, having more range that fits them to their door in 24 hours, they sacrifice not being able to take it there and then. Personally the idea of not having to cart around a massive bag all afternoon and carry it to the car, and having it nicely delivered the next day by a courier man to my front door rather appeals. The most annoying thing for me is having to go back to my car (inevitably parked a mile from the shop I am in because of town planning that happened 100 years ago) after shopping in the afternoon so that I can go out for dinner or to the cinema without a load of shopping bags to cart around or forget.

One day, all shops will be like this. The advert will be on TV, and have a simple demonstration of how it works and why it is chuffing brilliant. We will also have a chimpanzee in every store that serves pints of sugary tea and toast while you browse the materials and get measured. Can't beat a pint of sugary tea while you go shopping, and everybody loves a trained monkey.

The key difference is that they don't need to visit the shop and then forget what size they are, forget to go online that evening, lose the impulse buy. You can still impulse buy in the shop, the tailor takes your order and places it online for you. Of course if you want then you can place an order online, it is up to you.

When there are a load of new products, we might have a big party for regular customers, but we don't need to do it in a store - we can take it anywhere, just take our measuring tape and a couple of rails of clothes. Or we could have our staff wear the clothing and you just tell us what you want, we get it ordered for you. Have some more tea and toast sir, just shout MONKEY and he'll come over.
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Monium,
Quote:

If supplers have a retailer trading agreement they can legally stop people trading across boarders, such as above selling from Europe to the US or other none EU countries, but can not stop any retailer selling across the EU geographic area.


I had intended to include in the quote above, but my mouse didn't.
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Monium, I like your vision but fear the crusty hippy (telemarker?) animal rightists outside will deter your customers - How about a retro robot with built in teasmaid?

Actually I don't know why all retailers don't do this already. I'm guessing at inflexible IT systems, internal politics over p&l ownership & a legacy mindset but maybe they are reluctant to let go of their USP which is instant customer gratification. Whenever I go shopping I become more convinced its really a leisure pursuit for many.
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fatbob wrote:
t maybe they are reluctant to let go of their USP which is instant customer gratification. Whenever I go shopping I become more convinced its really a leisure pursuit for many.


I like the idea, but suspect fatbob is right. It might work if you did let them come out with something in their hands, even just a receipt stapled onto a nice card with the delivery time on, in a tiny little bag (optional of course).
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Quote:

It might work if you did let them come out with something in their hands, even just a receipt stapled onto a nice card with the delivery time on, in a tiny little bag (optional of course).

Monium DON'T DO IT - It will be hard enough training the monkey to handle a kettle to make tea, don't let them anywhere near a stapler Skullie
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Dypcdiver wrote:
Monium,
Quote:

If supplers have a retailer trading agreement they can legally stop people trading across boarders, such as above selling from Europe to the US or other none EU countries, but can not stop any retailer selling across the EU geographic area.


I had intended to include in the quote above, but my mouse didn't.


I don't understand how EU law is a bad thing in this case though - it means that suppliers in the EU can rip off US customers or people outside the EU, but they can't rip off customers inside the EU (well, not easily or without breaking the law) - doesn't that make the EU law a good thing? It means that I can buy from any retailer in Europe that is prepared to take my money, and companies can't stop that from happening. It is good for the consumer.
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fatbob, wigan, Tiger2, I intend to fix the monkey butler problem by only employing monkeys that have been rescued from animal testing (to keep the animalists off my back) and to use a strict training regime in order to recruit only the best for this enterprise. They will be allowed to roam the shop, but we will have to fit an electronic collar that stops them just legging it or customers trying to take the chimps home. We need a USP, and if internet shopping in real life isn't U enough, then we'll have another SP. The Monkey Butler.

And there is instant gratification. The instant gratification that comes from buying things, but not having to carry them to the car, around the shops all afternoon, or tell the wife when you get home. For the girls this strikes me as a brilliant "guess how good I was today, I went out for 2 hours and only got this one little diddy bag" only for the courier to turn up with an entire transit van filled with shoes the next day Smile

I also realised there is an exclusive benefit for existing customers (but only existing customers!) - come into the store and guess what, shock horror, you can take a shirt or trousers away today, from stock. But only in emergencies, like chucking a coffee down yourself before an important meeting, we'll carry one rail of dark trousers and white shirts with all sizes in stock. Also good if you work as a waiter and have forgotten your uniform. Which isn't likely, none of our customers are going to be waiters. So you can have instant gratification, but only in emergencies.

I am increasingly wondering if the right outlet for this is a small store inside something like Debenhams, John Lewis or something. Send the girls off to go and buy a load of stuff, and they have to cart it around all day, spend half an hour with your trusted gentleman's man who checks you haven't put on a few pounds, a cup of tea from the monkey butler, and no baggage so you don't end up with more stuff than you can carry when you meet up with Mrs Shopper.

I also wonder whether perhaps there is a market for people dropping stuff off at our stores that they have bought, and we courier it to them next day with their other purchases, minus all the plastic bags, boxes, paper bags and other dross they don't want. Hmmmmm. I'd give someone a few quid to save me carrying all that crapola miles to the car. This maybe has a bigger market in the US where those massive shopping centres mean you can actually be more than a mile from your car when you find the shop you want to buy stuff from.
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I've just realised that what I have invented is that cocking wand shop in Harry Potter, minus all the wands cluttering up the place. Just goes to prove there are no new ideas, because J K Rowling has already come up with all of them. Other than the internet. She didn't invent the internet. Evil or Very Mad

A friend last night pointed out that if this had existed, Boo.com probably wouldn't have gone under.
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Monium wrote:
I've just realised that what I have invented is that cocking wand shop in Harry Potter, minus all the wands cluttering up the place. Just goes to prove there are no new ideas, because J K Rowling has already come up with all of them. Other than the internet. She didn't invent the internet. :evil



But if it's a proper wand shop surely it only needs one wand!
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Monium wrote:

A friend last night pointed out that if this had existed, Boo.com probably wouldn't have gone under.


Ahh but if you've read the book they'd probably have spunked $20bn of investor money on diamond encrusted waistcoats for the monkey butlers because they basically had no idea what cost control meant.
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Monium, loving it.
But do tell, how do you deal with the devliery monkeys who find it tricky nay impossible to deliver at the time convenient for me rather than them?
To my mind, that is still the weak link in the chain of internet purchases (not a deal-breaker obviously, otherwise online shopping wouldn't be the growth market it is, but if you want to remove all high street stock, it is going to have to get considerably better).

Crack that, and you'll be a God.
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Arctic Roll, We will have a courier that can cope with time slots. I anticipate the savings from having tiny diddy stores compared to massive hypermarkets to be significant, so the courier cost will come out of our margin. If you order less than X amount, you don't get a courier time slot or have to pay a premium to get one. Like Tesco delivery, except our couriers will smile occasionally, and when you order 400g of Finest cheddar we won't swap it for 250g of Value brie.

Most employers that are living in the 21st century realise that having staff deliveries at work is a much better way of doing this, and a significant employee benefit. In the future, all businesses will be like this.

But yes, I agree, if I can crack the problem of a courier turning up when someone is out, then I would be a God. I don't think I can fix that. You would be very welcome to collect from any of our stores the next day though. And you can see the Monkey Butler and have another cup of tea while you collect.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Monium wrote:
If I know men, they will have ordered 5 new shirts for the next few months, so waiting a couple of weeks for the right size, cuff style, or something like that is fine as long as they've got the other 4.
.

What about women?

Quote:

The key difference is that they don't need to visit the shop and then forget what size they are, forget to go online that evening, lose the impulse buy. You can still impulse buy in the shop, the tailor takes your order and places it online for you. Of course if you want then you can place an order online, it is up to you.

Lose the impulse buy, you lose about half of your sale!

When was the last time you go to a store to buy 1 thing and come home with JUST 1 item?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Surely it is dependent upon the product being sold. If its exclusive to the retailer or just too difficult to transport(e.g furniture) then great, order in shop and customer waits for delivery. But if its not exclusive or too difficult to transport then most would just go to another high street retailer.

Most people if they were looking for cost savings would go on-line to see what the best price is.
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abc wrote:
Monium wrote:
If I know men, they will have ordered 5 new shirts for the next few months, so waiting a couple of weeks for the right size, cuff style, or something like that is fine as long as they've got the other 4.
.

What about women?

Quote:

The key difference is that they don't need to visit the shop and then forget what size they are, forget to go online that evening, lose the impulse buy. You can still impulse buy in the shop, the tailor takes your order and places it online for you. Of course if you want then you can place an order online, it is up to you.

Lose the impulse buy, you lose about half of your sale!

When was the last time you go to a store to buy 1 thing and come home with JUST 1 item?


We are not really interested in selling to women. They bring too much stuff back (so we'd have to run a big returns operation, and returns kills profitability), changing their minds all the time, and even if something fits perfectly well as advised by our fitters, they will think it makes their bum look big, even if it doesn't. Plus they are not easily drawn by the Monkey Butler marketing tool, and are short sighted enough to think that not coming home with 10 heavy bags of stuff isn't a proper shopping trip, so won't buy into the value add here.

The shop provides the ability to impulse buy. My argument is that we don't just tell someone what size they are and let them think it through and then forget to go online and do it, they can just tell the fitter what they want and they order it for them, credit card handed over, order turns up. It is still impulse buying, but the consequences are not as apparent until the stuff turns up the next day - very easy to forget just how much you have ordered...

About 3 hours ago I went to a store to buy one thing. I came home with just one item. I do this regularly, because I am not a fool, and therefore me and my money are not easily parted.

I don't think you've really got it. Are you a woman?
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Monium wrote:
I don't think you've really got it. Are you a woman?

What I "don't get" is what merchandise you're selling that you can profit by catering to only half of the population! The population willing to pay a much higher margin too.

While men earn more, it's for their women to spend. Wink Lose the female customer base entirely, you'll lose half of your sale, and more than half of your profit margin.

Yes, I'm a women.
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Monium, You do make me laugh!
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daveyladboy wrote:
My best mate was back from Australia this week, and said that over there all retailers now charge $50 to try on ski boots, which is deducted if they are then bought. Apparently this is because of cusomers then ordering their boots online more cheaply. He also said that by ordering them from US websites they can save over $100, so it's worth paying the $50 anyway....
Anybody know of any UK dealers charging to try stuff on?!


I've not a lot of experience of this when it comes to ski kit. But in other fields many charge for the advice or the fit. Lots of running shops will charge for a fitting unless you buy the shoes from them (I've had this at Advanced Performance in Cambridge), but they call it biomechanical assessment and get you to run on a treadmill, video you etc....
Some bike shops do the same. Some bike shops will get the hump if you take in a bike bought elsewhere for some work done, or for a proper fitting, decent ones welcome you and charge for the service.
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I quite like Monium's idea. I might visit his shops to try stuff on, but rather than pay him I'll just scan the barcode on my smartphone and order from a pure play internet shop. After all they don't need to pay the rent for the shops, or any of those skilled sales people, so will be cheaper and I get it delivered home, just as I would if I pay in the shop.

The only way a stock-less shop could make sense would be if it were the brand owner who ran it, therefore increasing sales of their products and getting profit at the wholesale stage of the transaction but letting the customer purchase from their online retailer of choice.

(In- fact you could also benefit from the referrer fees that most online shops give on click through that end in purchases, just offer the "check for cheapest price online and order from them" service on a terminal in the shop. This solution is even better than the stock-less shop, I've got a supply-chain-less shop.)
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abc wrote:
Monium wrote:
I don't think you've really got it. Are you a woman?

What I "don't get" is what merchandise you're selling that you can profit by catering to only half of the population! The population willing to pay a much higher margin too.

While men earn more, it's for their women to spend. Wink Lose the female customer base entirely, you'll lose half of your sale, and more than half of your profit margin.

Yes, I'm a women.


Let's break this down and use logic. You remember logic. It is what women have before they go all wappy and start buying curtains.

The merchandise is targeted. It is designed for a specific market, that buy at a specific price point, that see the value add in what we are doing. Those buyers, whether male or female, will pay a much higher margin, because my costs are very very low - no stock, small shops, low cost means big profit if I can hold the price at the same level as other retailers on the high street.

Men don't earn more. It just seems that way because we don't throw it all away on shoes and makeup. Well, most men that is.

We haven't lost the female customer base. We never had them in the first place. We don't want them. Have you ever been in Miss Selfridge? Or Topshop? Full of people who don't know what they want, trying on 20 different things and then walking out having bought nothing. We don't want that. We want one visit, the year's shirts bought, perhaps another visit to arrange the year's trousers.

But feel free to join me and you can buy the womens franchise. I bet I make more money than you do. Partly because you will be paying me a percentage of your revenue as the franchisee, but that's not the point Smile

I still don't have a name for it yet. Maybe "The Sweatshop" or something. I fear Nike might have copyrighted that for their own version of this.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Flet©h, now you're just being silly. If you want to sell someone else's product and charge customers to be able to try that on, they can already do that under Distance Selling Regulations. You just buy every size in the range and send back the ones you don't want.

I think you are right about the single brand thing. If we could convince someone like Calvin Klein or similar that this was the way to do it, then they could convert their other shops to our model and move into much smaller premises. Unfortunately they don't sell enough sizes for this to actually work - all their clothes seem to be designed for stick insects, not proper british bloke size (i.e. Monium size)

Annoyingly, the best name for this would be Net A Porter - internet shopping, ready to wear. But that's already taken.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Monium wrote:

Annoyingly, the best name for this would be Net A Porter - internet shopping, ready to wear. But that's already taken.


Suspiciously French and feminine therefore not likely to appeal to your proper British bloke. wink

Also monkeys now confirmed as dangerous since I watched Louis Theroux last night although not as dangerous as American exotic wildlife owners who are all insane.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Monium, Not really silly. My point was that in order to survive your shop doesn't just need to undercut the high street stockist to compensate the shopper for the wait but also needs to price match with the pure-play online retailers. Otherwise I would just use your shop as a handy trying on point and order online from the cheapest place.

And since your costs would be significantly higher than the pure-play retailer due to your shops (even though your haven't had the stock costs) you would always either be undercut by the pure-play, out serviced by the stockist or be unprofitable due to high costs of shops but only being able to charge low internet prices.

Effectively you aren't offering anything unique. I can try stuff on in a stockist and I can get cheap prices online if I'm willing to wait.

Obviously all bets are off if you don't actually need to make money selling things to the customer and instead make money by increasing demand for your product.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Slightly off track, but could be combined with ideas in discussion...

I want an app for smartphones that you can use to simply scan the barcode of any product on the shelf of any shop, it immediately searches (either the whole net, or perhaps a bunch of retailers linked with the app), shows you who has the best price for it or its equivalent (including delivery), then you press a button and your order is placed instantly (as the app company already has your payment and delivery details).

So you can still physically go on a browsing shopping trip (which some of us do actually like) but buy stuff at the guarenteed best price, and not have to carry it home!

Does that exist? (I can't think why argos/amazon doesn't already offer it just indexing their own stuff!)
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