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Fridge or Dry Slope or Neither for beginners?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Off to La Plagne with wife and kids (5 &10) in January. I have booked them a week of morning lessons with Oxygene but I am wondering how much worth there is in lessons before hand. They are complete beginners.
Problem I have is that the indoor domes are all a long way from me down in Exmouth (nearest is about 3 3/4 hrs drive each way). Alternately we have Plymouth dry slope which is a relatively new dendex carpet.
I have been advised by some friends not to bother with Plymouth as its so different from real snow and also if they have falls it can be quite off putting for confidence as its a harder fall than on real snow.
Neither option is particularly cheap and at best I can afford one visit to either before January so I am considering just waiting 'til we hit the .
Advice welcome from all who know better than me and thanks in advance for all responses.
Cheers.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Why go all the way to Plymouth when you have Exeter only a few miles up the road?

End of this month they are having a special beginner's weekend: From http://www.exeterskiclub.org.uk/ :

‘Have-a-go’ at Skiing on the weekend of 29th & 30th October 2011
‘HAVE-A-GO’ BEGINNER SESSIONS
1hr session commencing every ½ hour between 10.00 - 16.00 (the last session commences at 15.00).
ONLY £3 FOR 1 HOUR SESSION ‘HAVE-A-GO’ PRE-BOOKING NOT REQUIRED


You also have Torquay not that far away: http://www.skitorquay.com/
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plastic slope are a little different to ski on, they are more difficult at first, but this is a good thing, they can help with technique and IMO any help with the basics is great rather than spending the first few days of the holiday learning those basics

more than one visit would be best but one is better than none and if nothing else will get them used to the equipment in terms of pointy bit goes to the front and clips go to the outside of the boot etc
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jirac18, I think that's quite a difficult question, and it depends on the folks. We took a complete beginner - nephew of the OH - who had never even seen snow on a holiday - and for his Christmas present we gave him a two hour private lesson on southampton dry ski slope. Basically, he learnt to ski in that lesson - he just went for it. In Meribel he did brilliantly, fell so often on one buttock that he wore a hole through his salopettes, but just did it. But he was a good polo player, short, with very strong legs and no fear of falling. For him, plastic was perfect. But for some people it doesn't work - yes, it's hard to fall on, the equipment can be pretty grotty, it can rain, it's all a bit gritty. Fine for really keen and quite athletic people with a reasonable pain threshold. But not for everyone and not, I'd say, for many a 5 year old. You know your kids - if the 5 year old is the kind who can ride a two-wheeler, does tricks on his scooter and will have a go at a skateboard - yes, he'd be fine. But if he/she is a bit less confident, could take a bit of a knock and take agin the whole business.

If you can only do one session it won't make a huge difference - and if everyone else in the beginners group on holiday is really a beginner, they'll cope fine. It's fun, all learning together.

If you can do enough before you go to get into the next-to-beginner class, then it's more worthwhile.
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jirac18, Just make sure you take the same precautions re clothing that you'd use on the mountain. Gloves especially can be critical on dry slopes when a fall happens. Wish you luck whatever you decide and would be interested to hear your feedback on the new dry runs
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Certainly going to Tamworth fridge and doing lessons to get to recreational standard helped me and the kids (5, 10 and 14 at the time) enormously before out first trip to the mountains. Into the next one up from beginners class so no bunny slopes and sidestepping up the hill for a few seconds slithering down for us and by the end of the week even the 5 year old was happily blasting down easy reds.
I did learn in a day, the oldest 2 fast track, 2 x 3 hour lessons over a weekend and the youngest had 4 x 1 hour sessions though the first one of those although booked as a group lesson . If you could possibly make something like that work I'd say go for it but as CEM says even one or two sessions on a dry slope will be much better than nothing.
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If they _want_ to ski and are hardy - then I'd always say a few dry ski sessions to get to happy snowplough are a good investment. Fridge for me is a little expensive - but is more fun if one is nearby especially for kids - the snow is a real novelty and buys you some goodwill with even a nervous/unconvinced child.

With those already a bit undecided to start with I have had most luck with doing nothing in advance though. One or two bad sessions on dry/fridge are enough to put some people off entirely and they give up, whereas when they are already out on a holiday they persist through and discover it is fun after all sometime around day 3 Wink
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
jirac18, When we first started skiing my youngest was aged 5 and we all started at our local dry slope. I would definitely recommend having beginners lessons at the dry slope, and then practicing on the dry slope as often as they can before going in january. Your children will then be comfortable on their skis and make much quicker progress when they have lessons on snow. The techniques they learn on the dryslope are exactly the same as they will learn on snow. They will probably enjoy it and can then practice locally as often as they want to. When they first go on snow they will probably be surprised by how fast it is compared to the dry slope, but they will soon get used to that and then remember the techniques they learnt at the dry slope. I wouldn't worry unduly about them hurting themselves on the dryslope. They will be learning in a controlled environment and going pretty slowly, if they do fall it's unlikely to be a high speed crash! Being smaller and lighter, and not as far to fall, they are unlikely to hurt themselves. You mention that the best you can afford is one visit to either before January. Dryslopes are normally quite a bit cheaper to use than an indoor snowslope, and of course you also save money by not having as far to go.
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jirac18, Dry slope will be fine. If your Instructor is any good you really shouldn't be falling over.

Better to get more slope time at the closer cheaper dry slope than drive for miles to a session or two in a dome.
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Quote:

With those already a bit undecided to start with I have had most luck with doing nothing in advance though. One or two bad sessions on dry/fridge are enough to put some people off entirely and they give up, whereas when they are already out on a holiday they persist through and discover it is fun after all sometime around day 3

good advice. And it might well be the adult beginner who most dislikes having a lesson on plastic. If she really wants to do it, then fine. If she's tentativeto start with, and not very sporty, it might be best left - some adults really, really, really HATE falling over and it's all very well to say that with a good instructor you shouldn't fall, but......

People vary so much.

(A tentative and not sporty adult female beginner would do better to spend as much time as possible strengthening their leg muscles than trying to learn to ski on plastic).
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Plymouth has a Perma-snow surface. It is a lot softer than dendix.
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jirac18, as RobW says, why not go to Exeter? Those have-a-go sessions look good, and dirt cheap. Beyond that, though, I'd say there's not much to be gained from just a single session, as you'll not "learn to ski" in just one session. For the kids they have a kids club which looks good value: http://www.exeterskiclub.org.uk/index.php?page=penguins . We (Aldershot) also have a similar session, and it normally takes a few weeks until the little ones are snowploughing their way around cones on the slope. You've plenty of time to get a series of sessions in which would give them a good start for the snow holiday - I'd say plan on about 5 weeks, which would cost little more than a single session at a snowdome. I have had some young 4yos though that took quite a time to get going - they were basically just too young - but others were fine, and by 5 they mostly get on fine with the appropriate hand- (or more accurately, foot-) holding.

Is your wife a raw beginner also? If so, she would probably benefit from one of the courses they are running: http://www.exeterskiclub.org.uk/uploads/courseinfo.pdf. 5x2hrs for £60 (including the required instruction in small groups) is a pretty good deal, so I'd definitely recommend it. Our beginners' courses are just 3x2hrs, at the end of which we'd expect (actually we guarantee) they'll be able to snowplough turn down a simple slope. And as pam w says, the most common problem I've had has been middle-aged mums having insufficient leg strength to hold the skis in a plough. Now I'm not for a minute suggesting that that's going to be true in your case Wink , but it may be worth it just to check out whether a little gentle preparatory exercise is advisable prior to heading off to La Plagne. Whether your 10yo would do best in the kids club or with your wife is a difficult one, best decided by you (based on how mature he/she is) under advice from the slope - although re-reading their blurb you may not get the choice.

I'm not saying that after these courses they'll be ripping up the blacks skiing switch, but for £150 spent before you go, I reckon you can completely transform what they will be able to get up to in La Plagne - easily doubling the value of that holiday!

Yes, Dendix is hard, and can be hard to fall on, but as a raw beginner they'll be moving so slowly any falling (which in any case will be rare if the instructor is worth his salt) will be so gentle it'll not be a problem. (Incidentally, I've had just as hard falls on hard-packed snow as on Dendix.) With beginners' classes I usually stage a fall-over just to show them it's not a problem. As Elston says, the Permasnow at Plymouth will be a bit softer (although generates equally bad friction burns at speed). According to the information I have (I've not been to either slope), Plymouth is also a much larger slope than Exeter - which will be of no benefit to a beginner, and actually may be rather more intimidating....60m is just about an ideal size for a beginner. So I really can't see any benefit in travelling there rather than just up the road to Exeter. Particularly so if you'd only go there just the once.
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jirac18, I would say go for a lesson on either. The kids will benefit 100% for just being on skis. The ski school will soon work out they have had a few hours on skis and will be in the group that most benefits their progession. Enjoy , and also thumbs up foryOxygene , my son had a ball and came on so much when in Val'D, in a group of 4 only , should not be too busy at that time of year and their groups should be small per instructor
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
AndAnotherThing.. wrote:
jirac18, Dry slope will be fine. If your Instructor is any good you really shouldn't be falling over.


Please tell me how a 'good' instructor can magically prevent folk falling over??
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Well thats an overwhelming vote for get some lessons either which way- so lessons it will be. I do like the idea of being a few steps ahead once at resort so we can make better use of our afternoons together as a family practicing what they have learned in the morning. I am an intermediate skier so should be able to help with that and have some fun.

I visited the dry slope at Exeter for a look around and I wasn't too impressed with it but then again I have never used dry and learned on snow only. I am concerned with Exeter and Torquay surfaces as I have heard of many people classically breaking thumbs and wrists on the old hexagonal carpet. Plymouth as quite rightly pointed out is a perma solid carpet which I figured would be better.

Thanks again all for such a great response Smile
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 Poster: A snowHead
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jirac18, I've skied all three slopes in your area (Barton Hall slope was fun to work on) and yes accidents do happen but not with the frequency that the public perceives them to occur. Remember the slow news days and silly season reports Laughing

A more important criteria for choice for me would be, does the slope have a seperate beginners area where beginners can learn to use the equipment withou worrying about others wizzing through the lesson.

If Exeter is closer and making a good offer, then use it and make trips to other places once you are in a position to judge. Remember the reputation skiing in general has for "broken legs, arms, necks deaths, etc"!

The advantage of dry slopes is exactly that you do not have the slipperiness of snow so you have more time to concentrate on technique because things are not happening so fast. Your family have mastered the basics, including riding the lift, then branch out and see which surface you prefer.
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kitenski wrote:
AndAnotherThing.. wrote:
jirac18, Dry slope will be fine. If your Instructor is any good you really shouldn't be falling over.


Please tell me how a 'good' instructor can magically prevent folk falling over??


Because the Instructor uses their judgement to choose an activity and slope based on the ability of the pupil. After all, most pupils will arrive at the slope with an existing ability to stand & walk. If my pupils are falling over on plastic, I'll be looking carefully at what I'm doing.

I accept that unexpected things happen, but that applies to all slopes and surfaces.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
AndAnotherThing.., I've seen folk fall 2m up the very gentle beginners area at a fridge....
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kitenski, Interesting point. When I'm teaching in the Alps I'd choose almost flat ground to start on, but with plastic being less slippy actually I guess it easier for those early lessons.
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AndAnotherThing.., yeh never thought of the fact it being less slippy as being a benefit until now Very Happy
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kitenski, I don't think either AndAnotherThing.. or I are saying that no student will ever fall, but with appropriate progression they should never be travelling fast enough to do themselves some damage while in those early stages. At our slope the first two lessons involve getting the feel of walking forwards and backwards on skis, turning on the spot, then most crucially getting them properly balanced in short straight parallel runs (say 10m or so), before getting onto straight-run snowploughs of varying plough width. Only once they have that level of control do we get onto starting turns. The most likely time for them to fall over is getting on and off the lift. Falling then is really no different to falling over when walking about normally, so the surface is really not an issue.

jirac18, as I said before I've been to none of your local slopes (although I've met a few EXD and TOQ racers at races around the country) so I can only advise in general terms. Don't be put off by Exeter being small - it's about the same length as our teaching slope, and we only get to the top of that after about 3 lessons. If you have "enthusiastic" youngsters that could be an advantage as they will be itching to "go from the top" - and they'll be able to achieve that better on a shorter slope. Samerberg Sue's point about having properly managed/segregated beginners and free-skiers is important though, and maybe that would be a decider between Exeter and Torquay (although I have no information one way or another there), but that need not necessarily be a separate slope, provided there is a coned off (or similarly delimited) section for the beginners. For your beginners I don't think the Dendix vs Permasnow difference would be relevant (as I described above), but if you're after some practice as well, then Dendix is orders of magnitude better to ski on (I truly hate Permasnow) - and for you the longer slope at Torquay may be an advantage.

One more thought - do you know anyone who's had beginner lessons at Exeter or Torquay? Maybe they can give you an idea of the "customer experience" at those slopes.
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GrahamN, thanks for that it sounds encouraging. Good friend of mine learned to ski at Exeter and Torquay when he was a kid but that was many many moons ago and not under the current instructors/management.

I am definiately going to introduce the kids to the Penguin Club at Exeter and give that a go. Its not expensive so they can get plenty of two hour sessions in between now and mid January. Going to leave the wife to decide for herself but I suspect she will give Exeter a go too. She is pretty sporty with good coordination and strong legs as she runs a lot and does quite a bit of hill training around Exmouth.

On reflection with my own learning experience (thrown onto a difficult blue and easyish red by mates and told follow us!!) that the family will enjoy skiing and getting them learning faster when we get to La Plagne will be a real bonus, so I am pleased this thread has persuaded me to try Exeter. I had never even put on a pair of boots let alone skis until I got to the ski rental shop in St Johann in Tirol two hours off the plane. I know we all learn differently and my learning curve was extremely sharp and worked for me but wouldn't for everyone.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
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jirac18, glad to have been of assistance. Sound like your wife will have no problem at all - those I was referring to seemed to do get little exercise other than walking from the 4x4 in the car park to the mall and back Laughing [/crass_stereotyping]. She may want to think carefully though about how comfortable she is with being left for dead when the kids are all over the mountain by day three. That will, of course, happen to her - and you - in time, but hopefully not in the first week Wink .

(BTW, my initial learning experience was similar to yours - although even the "black" in the small upstate NY place they took me to was really maybe a moderate blue. rolling eyes . Feet hurt something rotten, probably fell about the same distance I "skied", but I loved it. I then did have a couple of weeks lessons, but did miss out on some quite important fundamentals for quite a long time after that though - spent a long time back-filling since)
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Well I really should have some lessons myself but money only stretches so far and I'm happy coming down pretty much most stuff in control at varied speeds so I'll just have to wait til another year. I'm sure Ive got all sorts of bad habits to iron out but I sure do enjoy myself and thats what counts!
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jirac18 wrote:
GrahamN,
Going to leave the wife to decide for herself but I suspect she will give Exeter a go too. She is pretty sporty with good coordination and strong legs as she runs a lot and does quite a bit of hill training around Exmouth.



Given that she is sporty to start with I'd say hopping the train to somewhere like Tamworth and doing the learn to ski in a day may be the best for her. Sure it is hard work but I'd have been absolutely gutted to have to stop after a couple of hours and wait a week for another go, and it made it all the more exciting coming down from the top comfortably in the afternoon when only a few hours earlier I'd been at the bottom thinking how huge and steep it looked! This video is about the snowboard in a day course but the ski one is pretty much the same format and the boarders and instructors comments apply equally to both. http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/skitv/video.aspx?videoID=1997&categoryID=3 (or http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/skitv/video.aspx?videoID=2001&categoryID=59 if you are a member)

Oh and learning at Tamworth will mean she thinks early morning hardpack and icy is just about perfect skiing conditions!
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davkt, Exmouth to Tamworth weekend return ticket is £158 per person!! Journey takes 4 hrs!! Car to Tamworth bit quicker but still £50 in petrol. I can't wait for the new snow dome at Weston Super Mare!!

I do like the look of the learn in a day course though
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jirac18, Ouch! last time I headed to the Exeter (out on a Fri back Sun, this spring) from Derby it was only 3.5 hrs (so Tamworth-Exeter 3hrs as its en-route) and was just under £30 each way. Did need to buy in advance and as singles for specific trains to get it that cheap but possible with a bit of planning!
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In my opinion having skied them all (a lot) Hemel Hempstead has the best snow of the southern snowdomes (Tamworth included) for those looking for pre season.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
the "do it in a day" courses are really good for people who are highly motivated and moderately fit. I did the snowboard in a day in Milton Keynes - totally knackering, but I lived too far away to faff back and forth for a series of lessons.
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I know people dislike Tamworths hardpack but seeing the reaction of the other 1 or 2 week and bit of snowdome time skiers to the the run from the hotel to the lifts on last years EoSB I'm glad I learnt there!
It looked just perfect to me, like a freshly groomed Tamworth. Most of the rest of them viewed it as an icy deathtrap, suppose it made sorting the 14 or so of us out for the lessons easy, 4 of us followed the instructor the rest wouldn't go down it! Think I had a far easier time learning to handle the afternoon slush than they had learning to cope with the early morning ice!
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RobW, Massive thanks for suggesting exeter ski club beginners intro this weekend!!

Just got home from spending the best value £3 per child ski instruction at Exeter dry slope. The kids (10 & 5) had the best time. They have never so much as put a ski boot on before today. Littl'un can now ski straight lines to a rolling stop with a touch of snow plough and turn. Big'un has blown me away....she has gone from straight lines to plough to parallel and in the last 20 mins of 90 minute session started edging carved turns. Her balance an natural ability was incredible and their confidence is huge. I have never seen my two girls so excited and happy at the introduction to any activity as much as today.

Ducks to water! I am smiling from ear to ear and so excited for La Plagne in January as I now know they will be able to ski well at the end of the week and we will be able to enjoy skiing together.

Off to Exeter again tomorrow for my wife to do same session and kids can have another go....all for just £3 each. Kids will then join the Penguins Club there for just £8 per two hour session on weekends on the run up to January and Mrs C can take an adult course of lessons too.

If there's anyone from Exeter Ski Club here on SH then big thanks and well done, great instruction & great intro event! Laughing Very Happy
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jirac18, good news!
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jirac18, that's fantastic! good news. snowHead
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Good stuff, though I won't hold out too much hope of skiing together at the end of the week in La Plagne, the kids will soon get fed up of waiting for you!!
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davkt, You could well be right there but I'll do my best not to embarrass them! It is so amazing how kids take to learning something new which adults seem to find so hard
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jirac18, Yep, one of the main motivations for me going to do the the Easiski on2off piste course in Jan is so I can chase my 7 year old when she vanishes into the trees at the side of the piste!
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