hang on a minute - what's going on?......

A snowHead

The stuff I work on deals with long term policy, and there are MANY things in history (Cold War, energy policy, education, etc) where it's not easy to see the trends. The trends only become obvious after quite a while, once you see where you've got you can look back and see the small steps (decisions, reactions, etc) which got you there. Trouble is, you may not be in the place you want to be or meant to be.

With this in mind, I've become worried about some of the advice which I've heard in ski shops and crops up around this site. Namely, for people - often in the early stages of skiing ie buying first skis - to go for long, all mountain skis, when it's obvious that these folk are just at the beginning of the learning curve. There nave been some comments that tight turns are old-fashioned, and that this type of sking is out of date. Very odd. Sure, Candide Kamera shows beautiful flowing lines down the topography, wonderful accomplished stuff - certainly a skill to which I aspire. But what are the implications of this? Rather than this being the pinnacle of someone's skiing, people are setting out to achieve this right from day one - or at least at the end of week two. I am starting to see people from the UK with relatively low skill levels and very hard core skis - very long, very wide - taking very fast lines down pistes, with a lot of speed and not much control. Is this an issue? Are there more collisions than there were? Ski-injury.com data suggests (in Scotland) that little has structurally changed in the stats, but Scotland is not typical.

Complicating the picture is:

- numbers on the slopes have increased in the last two decades, although the numbers are likely to be lower this year
- skis only became anything other than a handful for people when relatively short carvers came into use
- the general view is that carvers have increased the tendency for collisions, since they enable novices to attain high speeds at low skill levels

Interpretation of the stats is difficult. The NSAA in 2008 concluded:

Are the rates of collisions among skiers and snowboarders on the rise?
No, the rate of collision accidents is not on the rise. In fact, the research conducted by ski injury researcher Jasper Shealy indicates that there has no significant change in 30 years with rates remaining at approximately 6.9 percent of accidents reported.

So....perhaps the trends towards novices setting out on long wide planks is immaterial. A few may suddenly blossom into Thovex's and most of the others may simply struggle fearfully around on piste, unaware that they'd be enjoying themselves more on piste skis - but then in there may be a population simply hurtling around - and these are the worry. Maybe the key factor is psychological; ie novices expecting to ski at advanced skill levels quickly, and thus being immune to fear of speed - and maybe if they were on any type of ski they'd be putting others to risk.

A snowHead

If novices are buying long wide all mountain skis just to spank around on groomers then they are probably misguided but it's not a major problem - groomers in certain resprts will always be crowded and I don't really look to see what people are on if I see them out of control, I just try to avaoid them. I could argue that you see lots of people on hire skis out of control - solution? Only make hire skis available with lessons?

I could throw up a strawman argument that skiing is becoming a lot more like snowboarding. It's essential to get a good foundation but then with some fundamentals equipment enables people to do all sorts of stuff that were previously only in the realms of the expert. Snowboarding for a long time was a self taught sport due to the lack of quality tuition, and even now after say 1-2 weeks tuition I'd guess most don't see a lesson. The challenge for the ski instruction industry is to adapt to the equipment their students want to be on and find ways of helping them use it effectively. I'm not suggesting that current progressions aren't very good but maybe there's a population out there that doesn't really take lessons but could do if you found ways to engage them

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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Lots of speed not much control seems very a la mode in the grand massif. Much less so around the PDS or Cham.

Although there was one idiot on the Pierre a Ric towards the end of March...

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Collisions have nothing to do with 'carvers' if anything it is better because people can turn their skis more easily. In most resorts only about 1% of people skiing will actually be actually carving anyway and usually only those with race training. A lot of the all mountain skis have a radius not all that different to normal piste skis.

You are barking up the wrong tree OP.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Did see lots of brits with kids on fat twins sking poorly and thought sometimes the ski choice was poor for kid learning..but then its fashion..and where by kit does play a certain role I think the general feckless I'll do as i please attitude is the main culprit..if its not the grey and red ski jacket clad type Brits then its the Russians, Poles, Czechs, Dutch, Germans etc etc Anyone can point their skis downhill and hang on, and that seems to increasingly be one of the major ski styles.. that or taking tiny children down really hard runs or into the park just to take photos

After all it is free

There is no point in someone buying skis the first few weeks they ski. However I can't remember anyone suggesting otherwise.

I'm going to disagree, narc, to the extent that my perception of average speeds is higher than it was 25 years ago. Higher speeds and no increase in skill must surely lead to more accidents?

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fatbob, ...very good point...if you look at the NSAA stats on snowboarding accidents then they are pretty bad, and were increasing (proportionally, not just absolute numbers) when they last looked at it (2008 or so) - although in CH we've seen a real crash (sorry...pun) in the numbers of boarders - I think since twintip culture arrived. So the 'two weeks and then no lessons' is an excellent point. I always encourage people to have tuition at whatever level, refreshers and upskilling periods are vital for all, I think. And a few private lessons are intensive, fun and being so intensive and 1:1, very good value - one morning is worth a week of collective I reckon.

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Lou, ...no, indeed, but I think the guidance in the shops when purchasing tends to be better in CH - have no knowledge of France. I've spent time in various shops in the UK and heard very odd advice on length and type in relation to level and aspiration.

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rob@rar, ...yes, I think that's right, and that's what I was wondering in the last bit of my original post - in terms of 'what's going on' ie deep trends, I suspect your argument about psychology and attitude is more important than bad equipment choice. In other words, the surface trend is weird equipment choice, but the problems are driven by persistent attitudinal and psychological issues (personality type?)....

You know it makes sense.

narc, ...i did wonder (see my rob-rar response) re psychology...but hang on a minute....all mountains and with the same radius as piste skis? not in my garage. My 6 year olds: piste skis 5m radius - twintips 12m. Two pairs of my salomons, 12.5m - Lines at 21m - that ain't the same at all......but you may have stats which differ....

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

under a new name, ...yep me too re speeds...

A snowHead

a.j., ....yep...not just wide, very long too. Couldn't bite my tongue when I was in a shop where I know one of the senior staff very well, and whilst he was upstairs (shop will remain nameless) one of his new juniors was selling some skis to a woman who clearly had done very little off piste and was not very experienced - he was a very good skier - 'young blood' - what were they? Black Crows with a turn radius about the length of a runway at Heatrow and need two weeks' notice to change edges....which lengthwise towered above her head. I am afraid I said that my friend really should be called to come down, which he did, and intervened instantly, saying he was very conscious of litigation. Junior duly told off. But that's isolated in that shop, but I've seen it in others...again, won't name names...but not rare.

A snowHead

Re radius, iirc, my piste skis are around 11m, my very off piste around 20m

Quite a difference...

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

narc, when carvers first came in I think I remember some evidence about increasing knee injuries, though not collisions.

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valais - maybe it's our definition of inexperienced that differs Smile

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a.j., ...yep...think you're right... Very Happy

(won't let on as to how old I am, but let's say there's a few gallons of water under the bridge...) wink

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stoat of the dead, (brilliant handle btw) ...you might be interested in this re increasing knee injuries (from NSAA website):

Is the number of ski injuries increasing?
The overall rate of reported skiing injuries has declined by 50 percent since the early 1970s, according to Shealy. The once feared broken lower leg from skiing is now a thing of the past, declining more than 95 percent since the early 1970s. The overall rate of reported alpine ski injuries as of the year 2,000 remains essentially the same as 10 years ago—2.63 reported injuries per 1,000 skier visits. To only look at the overall number, or rate of injuries, does not tell the whole story. In research that was reported on at the International Society for Skiing Safety Congress in May of 2003, it was noted that in the last three to five years, the rate of serious knee injuries was starting to decline; unfortunately the number of mid-shaft tibal fractures was increasing after having declined dramatically from 1970 through the mid 1980s. The reason for the decline in serious knee injuries is believed to be due to the market penetration of the newer shorter skis. The reason for the increase in mid-shaft tibial fractures appears to be due to a decline in the functional properties of the ski-binding-boot systems.

Have snowboard injuries increased?
The rate of injury for snowboarding as of the 2000/01 season has increased to 6.97 from 3.37 per 1,000 visits from 10 years ago, according to Dr. Shealy.

Has the rate of some ski injuries changed?
The most significant upward trend in ski injuries since the early 1970s, according to a study by the University of Vermont Department of Orthopedics, was in ACL injuries, or injuries to the anterior cruciate ligament of the knees, which crosses the knee at a diagonal angle underneath the kneecap. The increase in serious knee injuries, especially ACL injuries, has reversed itself in the last three to five years. This welcome decrease is on the order of 30 to 35 percent so far. We believe that this decrease is due to the recent introduction of significantly shorter skis. Unfortunately, at the same time that knee injuries are starting to decline, we are now seeing an increase in both mid-shaft tibial fractures and injuries due to inadvertent releases, many of which would be preventable if skiers were more attentive to taking their skis into a qualified ski shop for an annual inspection and readjustment as needed.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

People are arguing modern shaped skis mean people ski much faster and its more dangerous and also modern mid-fat skis are straighter and longer than the shaped piste skis which mean people ski ski much faster more so it's dangerous. I'm not sure it can be both!? Maybe we should go back to only long straight skis... oh wait they are long without much sidecut too...

After all it is free

narc, ....good post...I think you're right...what's emerging from this thread is that it's the psychological dimension - including reluctance to continue with lessons - which may be the most important factor, with equipment choice running second...

meanwhile....take a look at my 'blimey stop press re waxing....' thread...now for something completely different....

No data but from observation at Grands Montets in Chamonix the park seems to be the hotspot for accidents.

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jbob, ....check....in 2009-10 the Lama from Sion was working like a shuttle-bus between the snow park at Aminona and the hospital in the valley - take off and landing repeatedly throughout Christmas. Strangely quiet last season - maybe a new class of rider or heavy dose of natural selection...

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^^ What have turn radii got to do with anything? Slalom skis and Armada JJ's both have piddly little radii and have completely different purposes, same with DH race boards and Lhasa pows. Radii has more to do with style and balls than purpose. (You have skis with a 5m radius though??!!! Even my gf's 155 slalom skis have a bigger turn radius than that!).

To sum up the thread though, people are idiots.

Whether they are reckless and plunge down something way beyond them with no knowledge or skill, then crash into someone else - or they kid themselves they are expert offpiste gnarlsters, then can't handle the skis they are recommended.

I reckon rob@rar is spot on.

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valais2, how old are those stats relating to the increasing number of snowboard injuries?

I ask as this thought crossed my mind the other week while leafing through this seasons Whitelines kit-porn edition. I've been toying with the idea of picking up a cheap rocker-board or similar off of flea-bay for use in the domes, and the prevailance of rockers in boarding is pretty much universal at the moment...

...but, as rockers are designed to give less grip than a traditional inverse camber or flat board, if you're a beginner on a rocker are you more likely to get yourself into trouble? Or am I talking out of my back bottom?

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Has anyone really stopped to think that maybe is its the different radii, rather the fatness of the boards????

The fatter the board, the (Generally) more sluggish it will be from edge to edge, and also the less likely it will be to have good edge control on the piste.

This is ever more true for people who are not as advanced as others, as they will have less training and technique to be able to dig the edges in to get a clean turn. and so resulting in less control of the accuracy and precision of their turns. resulting in more near-misses and more colisions (if very poorly judged).

Yes the attitude of skiers doesn't help, but also having the wrong kit doesn't either.

the stores (esp the high st ones that flog skis) are year on year stocking fatter and fatter skis (yes the manufacturing trend is that way, but there are still plenty of normal width skis made) and to push the fatter skis on people.

They are sales people - and what do sale people do.... Try to sell dreams!

Loads of novice skiers Dream of skiing great powder al the time and so buy the fatter skis in the hope/aspiration/desire/etc to ski the pow more frequently, but when they get to the mountains end up still skiing the piste at least 70-80% of the time (if not more).

The Width of the Ski underfoot and throughout (yes we can also say the rockers ones and twintips as well, but lets keep it simple) is likely Much more a contributing factor to loss of control than the radius - due to reduced likely hood of having good edge hold to make a good (and predictable - read: controlled) turn

A snowHead

I really don't buy the equipment is causing accidents argument. It's the lack of skills not the equipment. Edge hold on a wider ski may not have the rottweiler like grip of a RD slalom ski but neither does a hire ski that gets its edges tuned once a year nor any snowboard (barring alpine boards). Rocker has sod all to do with it if the effective edge underneath has a good tune. And any ski presently made should still be quicker edge to edge than any snowboard or monoski.

The fact that a lot of sales people UK ski shops are utter numpties when it comes to deep knowledge and experience of what they are selling is a separate issue. Never forget these are the same (type of) muppets who 5 years ago would try to sell you a Pocket Rocket (Gun, whatever) if you asked for a powder ski because they literally didn't have anything else. I'll bet heaps of them are bollocking on about rocker without ever having seriously used rocker skis for any extended period.

A snowHead

fatbob, agree with all that.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

fatbob, lack of skills - on equipment that let's one get more mobile, sooner in the learning curve and at higher velocities...

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Richard_Sideways, ...2004/5 from scotland

http://www.ski-injury.com/injury-statistics/stats1#figures

also 2004/5 from usa

http://www.nsaa.org/nsaa/press/0506/facts-about-skiing-and-snowboarding.asp

btw young males don't come out well (as with motorcycle accidents etc etc)....

haven't searched hard for anything newer but it's probably out there....

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clarky999, and pedantica ... where did that missing apostrophe get to???

there it is ... >>> ' <<<

was down the back of the sofa....

get in that sentence, you!

'my 6 year old's: 5m radius'

phew...grammatical integrity restored

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

quadwould, ...good analysis..we're getting somewhere on this thread....agree with you re width. I went into the deeply unfashionable zone last year when I bought some replacement 'day skis' to hack around on - bought some Volkl Sensor 2's with - wait for it - 69mm waist. Luckily I was saved from shame and the fashion police by the store manager who said without prompting - good choice - excellent edge to edge in the bumps. They are an exception in a crop of wide-waists, and the store found it very difficult to convince people who actually needed them, to get onto them....

After all it is free

fatbob, ..spot on re shorter carvers being enablers (and read the accident and 'injury-type' stats which back that up) ... and that's the worrying trend which I think might be accompanying the more enduring psychological realities...longer fatter bigger radius slower-edge-to-edge as a contributing factor to unguided missiles on-piste...

Thanks valais2. Collective, please feel free to shoot me down in flames and correct me, but if the figures are from 04/05 doesn't that predate the widespread use of very wide-under-foot skis, rockers, equipment etc, and thus knocks the theory into a tinkers hat somewhat?

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Richard_Sideways, ...citing the 04/05 figures relates to the reduction in accidents which appeared to accompany the introduction of shorter, more shaped skis (see the NSAA figs from the USA) but the trend towards higher volumes of wide waisted (and often long) skis started, in my view, in earnest about three seasons ago, and it was last year that the unguided missile problem seemed to be more in evidence...but that's why I posted - is it a genuine trend - always very difficult to detect - and what's the real underlying cause?....

Help!!

hang on a minute - what's going on?......

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