 Poster: A snowHead
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Scottish resorts will have to develop, where possible, the snowsports experience at higher altitudes and improve access to higher snow fields, according to a recent review for the Scottish government. The review was commissioned by Highlands and Islands Enterprise and Scottish Enterprise, and involved all five Scottish snowsports centres, Snowsport Scotland and Ski-Scotland in an attempt to understand the key issues facing the industry. ...It found that, despite two good ski seasons in the last couple of years, the resorts still require substantial investment in ski-related infrastructure and continued enhancement of year-round activites for its future sustainability.
Full report: http://www.hie.co.uk/common/handlers/download-document.ashx?id=094fea5b-058e-419c-91ee-f64448e7da5c
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well done to snowheads.com for using any opportunity to publish another 'scottish skiing is f--ked' story in the news fed without actually researching the facts properly.
Given the 80 page review was only published online 2 hours ago I doubt if the webmaster has even read it themselves ?
The actual quote from the review is as follows....
[blockquote]As in Europe in the future, Scottish resorts will have to develop, where possible, the snowsports experience at higher altitudes and improve access to higher snow fields by rationalising / replacing surface tows with chairlifts, creating accessible mini resorts higher up the mountain is a possibility[/blockquote]
The review also contains several positive points, which are conveniently ignored.
For the record - This 'anti scottish ski bias' is something I complained about twice last winter.
So its not the first time...
> Scottish resorts close - one month earlier than last season
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=1781421&highlight=#1781421
> Opps the roads are closed.
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=1655502&highlight=#1655502
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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roga, I've read it through & you're right, it's not a negative report at all. It doesn't advocate snowmaking but does advocate accommodation developments close to or on the doorstep of the skiing, VAT changes to make Scotland competitive with Europe's untaxed lift systems, acceleration of process hoops operators need to jump through with the Department of Transport and modernisation / investment. All of which will make the ski centres more attractive and competitive with their Euroland counterparts.
It rightly states that maximising income through year round activities is essential for a healthy outlook but not at the cost of snowsports which it acknowledges is the core without which the summer businesses would be unsustainable.
The bits the BBC have chosen for their summary is a bit of the same old same old though.
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roga, I've read it through & you're right, it's not a negative report at all. It doesn't advocate snowmaking but does advocate accommodation developments close to or on the doorstep of the skiing, VAT changes to make Scotland competitive with Europe's untaxed lift systems, acceleration of process hoops operators need to jump through with the Department of Transport and modernisation / investment. All of which will make the ski centres more attractive to those accustomed to and competitive with their Euroland counterparts.
It rightly states that maximising income through year round activities is essential for a healthy outlook but not at the cost of snowsports which it acknowledges is the core without which the summer businesses would be unsustainable.
The bits the BBC have chosen for their summary is a bit of the same old same old though.
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roga, some of the data in the report is very revealing to & could usefully be exploited by ski schools, hotels, travel companies etc.
You'll be interested in this ... http://www.winterhighland.info/forum/file.php?2,file=7700 ... which suggests that 5 out of 6 skiers and boarders in Scotland own their own kit but of those hiring, only 1 in 20 is getting lessons.
BTW, how do you delete posts in NEWS as I have managed to duplicate when I thunked I was editing. 
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moffatross, you can't edit or delete in news - have deleted your duplicate post for you
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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intae them lads, intae them 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Good to see that attempts at media management/manipulation is not just the preserve of political spin-doctors. Your pal Ally Campbell would be proud of your fight to have a positive, pro-Jock agenda here at SH News 24.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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ha - I dont care if people write nonsense in the forum... but if your going to use your authority to publish something as headline news, on a ticker, then at least make sure it correct and well researched ? anyone who has read the HIE review will realise its, on the whole, positive.
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Scotland gets more coverage as it is our closest ski area, is that a bad thing?
So out of interest how much earlier than last season was the closure of Cairgorm? (though if the rest stayed open closer than a month earlier than last year may it should have been resort rather than resorts)
Is not worth mentioning when a road snowheads might want to use to go skiing in Scotland is shut?
And it isn't really a stunning conclusion that Scottish resorts, along with many others but for most Snowheads Scotland is local ski area, might have to move higher if the climate continues to get warmer!
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You know it makes sense.
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davkt, Agreed. Haggis_Trap is being a bit too offended?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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robboj, Yup, doesn't seem to like facts unless it in the favour of his position
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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davkt, the facts are that the stories behind those items HaggisTrap quoted were each founded in good news but were then spun a negative twist for the headline. I don't think the blame for that lies with anyone other than the original article author, and from memory in most cases, that was the BBC.
As it goes, I agree with HaggisTrap. Our skiing resources are so precious and oftentimes precarious that this kind of media needling inside of snappy headlines, as harmless as it might seem at first glance, erodes the proposition to those who don't know what to expect or haven't got the patience to try it for themselves.
This paragraph in the report ...
The visitor market has growing expectations of product quality driven by overseas skiing experiences. The Scottish ski product is poor by comparison, hampered by a lack of funding / investment. Public money has been available in the past for new facilities; however the lack of public money available for replacement and refurbishment, poor cashflow and the lack of debt funding possibilities is a major constraint. There is an opportunity to bring Scottish snowsports activities more up to date with contemporary products, but funding from external sources will be required.
... is fair but then misses the mark by using the bolded word 'poor' rather than 'different'. The feeling you get skiing in Scotland could never be the same as you get in a big Alpine or US resorts but that has nothing to do with being inferior and everything to do with being in Britain with its geography, climate and culture. Most first time Brit skiers go jetting off to Alpine or US ski destinations that feel like Disneyland rather than wild mountains and don't realise that they aren't the norm in the ski world. To those who love it, it's the 'vive la difference' aspect of skiing in Scotland that makes it so fabulous in the first place and more people could be encouraged to enjoy that very difference if they were made to feel less negative about the prospect by what they read in the news. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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They did close a month earlier. But oh look "CairnGorm Mountain celebrates second best season in 15 years"> Funny you missed that one 
But you said in your post that it was closed for 2 days! It's an outrage! You need to research your back-story (or read your own posts) better before 'publishing these dreadful lies'
It was ironic to get such good snow and not be able to get to it - it was also ironic that the Eurostar and the Airports got shut by snow, preventing people going skiing in France, Austria, Italy etc. but we didn't get Escargot_hunt and Goulashsoup_farm attacking us for ruining alpine skiing. Get a grip man!
Here's your 'formal reply'.
Dear Mr/Ms Haggis_Trap,
Thank you very much for your kind rant.
The report that has upset you so deeply warns of the need to maintain and invest properly in Scottish skiing ie. a good thing - if it is listened to. Perhaps your view of Scottish skiing is that it is already so perfect that further investment will only spoil it however, most people who experience it think that more investment could improve it.
el Hen has posted many other positive stories about Scotland but you only seem to take note of and respond to the ones from which you can construct an excuse to be abusive - although on this occasion I think you've really had to try hard to miss the point.
Frankly IMO your persistent knee-jerk overreactions in supposed defence of Scotland do instead make Scottish skiing look weak and make you look like Mr McAngry.
Now, in your use of snowHeads, you have come here by choice and with great frequency over many years, all completely for free! Yet you can't even be bothered to include a return link to snowHeads among the gazillion links on your 'little' blog.
All this adds up to snowHeads owing you, personally, absolutely nothing so if you ever want a more respectful response from me, you'll at least ask for it politely and you'll start treating el Hen with a little respect instead of the abuse you seem to think it reasonable to dish out every time you disagree with some detail of one of her posts. Disagreeing is fine - abuse is not!
So, to round off this formal reply, here is your formal warning - Continued abuse of el Hen or any other snowHeads volunteer by you will not be tolerated.
Yours,
Admin.
For clarity: there is no anti-Scotland bias here. Why the hell would there be? While I may agree that a couple of the headlines reproduced from their sources could have been re-written to sound less negative, there are, on snowHeads, as many, indeed more positive stories about skiing in Scotland than negative ones. The strength here is that you can, and are encouraged to respond to improve, modify, update or argue points of the story. Or start new stories eg and let us know so we can decide whether to shift them to the news.
Abusive, knee-jerk reactions though, suggest weakness of argument and do your cause more harm than good. Quite frankly, when I read the desperate tone of Haggis_trap on this subject, it makes me less enthusiastic to head North. "Jings! If all the skiers are that desperate up there, conditions must be awful".
I have no issue with, in fact I welcome, robust and vigorous discussion of any news story whether you agree with it or not however insulting the writer as is Haggis_Trap's penchant is not appropriate.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Fri 7-10-11 4:20; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| moffatross wrote: |
| davkt, the facts are that the stories behind those items HaggisTrap quoted were each founded in good news but were then spun a negative twist for the headline. |
As fair as I can see all 3 headlines are a simple statement of fact (though feel free to correct me it the facts are wrong), not what I'd call spin!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Well there ye go Doug, a formal response!
I think admin has a point to be honest, certainly in this case as I said I don't think this headline is overly negative and it is true that many positive pieces have been published by el Hen in the past (and any perceived negativity in some news items I'm sure is accidental). Personally I'd say Snowheads has generally been a very positive place with regards Scotland so perhaps you can agree to disagree to coin an old cliche 
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roga, just as an observation, through the enthusiasm you share for Scottish skiing on the forum a number of snowHeads got together and travelled up to Scotland last season to sample what was on offer. They enjoyed the experience enough to arrange a repeat trip this coming season. My guess is that few of those people would have skied in Scotland if it hadn't been for your input. It seems to me there are better ways of slaying myths about how poor Scottish skiing is than complaining about some headlines you don't like.
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...and correct me if I'm wrong there was a very succesful snowHeads trip to ski in Scotland from Southern England last season which I believe is planned to be repeated again next season.
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ah, rob@rar beat me to it
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| admin wrote: |
They did close a month earlier. But oh look "CairnGorm Mountain celebrates second best season in 15 years"> Funny you missed that one
But you said in your post that it was closed for 2 days! It's an outrage! You need to research your back-story (or read your own posts) better before 'publishing these dreadful lies'
It was ironic to get such good snow and not be able to get to it - it was also ironic that the Eurostar and the Airports got shut by snow, preventing people going skiing in France, Austria, Italy etc. but we didn't get Escargot_hunt and Goulashsoup_farm attacking us for ruining alpine skiing. Get a grip man!
Here's your 'formal reply'.
Dear Mr/Ms Haggis_Trap,
Thank you very much for your kind rant.
The report that has upset you so deeply warns of the need to maintain and invest properly in Scottish skiing ie. a good thing - if it is listened to. Perhaps your view of Scottish skiing is that it is already so perfect that further investment will only spoil it however, most people who experience it think that more investment could improve it.
el Hen has posted many other positive stories about Scotland but you only seem to take note of and respond to the ones from which you can construct an excuse to be abusive - although on this occasion I think you've really had to try hard to miss the point.
Frankly IMO your persistent knee-jerk overreactions in supposed defence of Scotland do instead make Scottish skiing look weak and make you look like Mr McAngry.
Now, in your use of snowHeads, you have come here by choice and with great frequency over many years, all completely for free! Yet you can't even be bothered to include a return link to snowHeads among the gazillion links on your 'little' blog.
All this adds up to snowHeads owing you, personally, absolutely nothing so if you ever want a more respectful response from me, you'll at least ask for it politely and you'll start treating el Hen with a little respect instead of the abuse you seem to think it reasonable to dish out every time you disagree with some detail of one of her posts. Disagreeing is fine - abuse is not!
So, to round off this formal reply, here is your formal warning - Continued abuse of el Hen or any other snowHeads volunteer by you will not be tolerated.
Yours,
Admin.
For clarity: there is no anti-Scotland bias here. Why the hell would there be? While I may agree that a couple of the headlines reproduced from their sources could have been re-written to sound less negative, there are, on snowHeads, as many, indeed more positive stories about skiing in Scotland than negative ones. The strength here is that you can, and are encouraged to respond to improve, modify, update or argue points of the story. Or start new stories eg and let us know so we can decide whether to shift them to the news.
Abusive, knee-jerk reactions though, suggest weakness of argument and do your cause more harm than good. Quite frankly, when I read the desperate tone of Haggis_trap on this subject, it makes me less enthusiastic to head North. "Jings! If all the skiers are that desperate up there, conditions must be awful".
I have no issue with, in fact I welcome, robust and vigorous discussion of any news story whether you agree with it or not however insulting the writer as is Haggis_Trap's penchant is not appropriate. |
Admin - The issue is that all 3 stories that I highlighted could, and should, have had a positve slant about Scottish skiing.
For example
> Scotland gets record breaking 2m dump of snow
Instead of....
> Oops the road is closed!
> Cairngorm has another excellent season and operates until May
Instead of
> Scottish resorts close one month earlier than last season
> HIE publish strategic report showing Scottish skiing worth 30 million to the local economy
Instead of
> Scottish Snowsports Strategic Review warns development at higher altitudes needed
Ironically the positive story you link to was published as a direct reaction to my previous comments.
I am perfectly entitled to give my opinion and you are entiteld to disagree. At no point have I been abusive - despite what you claim. Interestingly your reply seems to take the line that you are the web-master, so screw what the 'McAngry Jocks' who actually ski in Scotland think.
I certainly dont think Scottish skiing is perfect. People should be educated to appreciate it for what it actually is. However putting negative spin on headlines certainly doesnt help.
Regards
Doug.
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| Quote: |
Now, in your use of snowHeads, you have come here by choice and with great frequency over many years, all completely for free! Yet you can't even be bothered to include a return link to snowHeads among the gazillion links on your 'little' blog.
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Just another freeloader hanging onto the shirt tales of snowHeads.....................
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Haggis_Trap, why should people be educated to appreciate Scottish skiing? You're coming across as the Thought Police. If you want to show off Scottish skiing please post a stream of pictures, videos, trip reports, arrange some trips, offer to guide people around if they visit. But insisting that people have their incorrect ideas about Scottish skiing put right and then blaming some harmless, IMO, headlines is more likely to put people off, IMO.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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As I've said in posts before, Scottish skiing is good. With new infrastructure investment it could be so much better, and could draw people away from the Alps etc. etc.
Without investment it will slowly die.
It's odd that expressing those thoughts is seen as being negative.
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to expand on my previous post about management consultancy reports. IMHO For the most part they gather up and regurgitate known info and then tell you what you already know - at considerable cost. The problem created is that their word is taken as gospel and extracts used out of context carry great weight in the media.
So will this report do more damage than good ?
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You know it makes sense.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| why should people be educated to appreciate Scottish skiing? You're coming across as the Thought Police. |
Because there are a lot of misconceptions generally fueled by the media. This is something the HIE reports actually highlights. Often from people who perhaps skied in Scotland once or twice. Usually they make the error of comparing the small Scottish resorts, whose primary market is local skiers, to the mega resorts of the alps frequented by holiday makers.
| rob@rar wrote: |
| If you want to show off Scottish skiing please post a stream of pictures, videos, trip reports, arrange some trips, offer to guide people around if they visit. |
But insisting that people have their incorrect ideas about Scottish skiing put right and then blaming some harmless, IMO, headlines is more likely to put people off, IMO.
Umm... I have actually posted several photos & videos on this website (and others) over the years.
If snowheads want some Scottish new stories from source then I will happily provide them this winter ?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| why should people be educated to appreciate Scottish skiing? You're coming across as the Thought Police. |
Because there are a lot of misconceptions generally fueled by the media. This is something the HIE reports actually highlights. Often from people who perhaps skied in Scotland once or twice. Usually they make the error of comparing the small Scottish resorts, whose primary market is local skiers, to the mega resorts of the alps frequented by holiday makers.
| rob@rar wrote: |
| If you want to show off Scottish skiing please post a stream of pictures, videos, trip reports, arrange some trips, offer to guide people around if they visit. But insisting that people have their incorrect ideas about Scottish skiing put right and then blaming some harmless, IMO, headlines is more likely to put people off, IMO. |
Umm... I have actually posted several photos & videos on this website (and others) over the years.
If snowheads want some Scottish new stories from source then I will happily provide them this winter ?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Haggis_Trap, there are lots of misconceptions posted on snowHeads about all sorts of things. I just think there are better ways to slay those myths than complaining about headlines and demanding that people agree with you.
IME snowHeads love snow-related stories, photos, videos, etc, and all the more if they are first-hand and personal. The more the merrier.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| I am perfectly entitled to give my opinion and you are entiteld to disagree. At no point have I been abusive - |
| You wrote: |
I am not sure what is worse.....
The deliberately negative original BBC article ?
Or the fact that some clue-less forum moderator choose to blindly copy and paste it as headline news. |
| You wrote: |
| Well done to snowheads.com for using any opportunity to publish another 'scottish skiing is f--ked' story in the news fed without actually researching the facts properly. |
Each is derisory toward the writer and in that sense abusive. Further your tone and style has IMV been overtly and unnecessarily confrontational which in itself is abusive.
| Quote: |
despite what you claim. Interestingly your reply seems to take the line that you are the web-master, so screw what the 'McAngry Jocks' who actually ski in Scotland think.
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Oh dear, it's a little tragic playing the "Is it cos I is Scottish?" card. Well yes I do take the line that I'm the web-master and yes I've checked my facts but I was thinking that you, individually were behaving like Mr McAngry, not Scotland in general: that would clearly be a very silly generalisation.
Skiing in Scotland doesn't actually give you a right to be angry Doug and it certainly doesn't seem to affect everyone like that. Perhaps you should try somewhere else - or something else if it affects you so badly? For example, my Gran used to find knitting very calming and we all got lovely jumpers for Christmas as a result. Let me know if you need my measurements.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Fri 7-10-11 4:22; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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...and yes, we'd love some first hand stories from you. Be careful to research your facts properly though. You wouldn't want to fall foul of the ol' Haggis_Trap trap
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| there are lots of misconceptions posted on snowHeads about all sorts of things. |
The difference is that these misconceptions were not reported as factual headline news.
If you are going to write a news story then at least do some research ? I don't think that request is unreasonable ?
For example - Scottish skiing clearly can't actually expand any higher as the headlines implies.
We already have ski resorts on 2 of the highest mountains that are suitable for skiing (Cairngorm and Aonach mor).
It might be possible to add 50m vertical to Cairngorm - but the summit often gets wind ripped and is unskiable.
The HIE review makes a very good case for further funding of Scottish snowsports - and this should have the basis of the article ?
| rob@rar wrote: |
| IME snowHeads love snow-related stories, photos, videos, etc, and all the more if they are first-hand and personal. The more the merrier. |
For sure.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap, why should people be educated to appreciate Scottish skiing? You're coming across as the Thought Police. If you want to show off Scottish skiing please post a stream of pictures, videos, trip reports, arrange some trips, offer to guide people around if they visit. But insisting that people have their incorrect ideas about Scottish skiing put right and then blaming some harmless, IMO, headlines is more likely to put people off, IMO. |
I'm not complaining and I hope you haven't got the impression I am?
Perhaps I've stood in the middle on this one rather than getting into an argument with anyone in particular (been there done that) and did suggest Haggis Trap/Doug address his points to admin/el Hen but that was so Doug got an answer and this thread didn't descend in a long moan. As I say clearly above I think the report is good and I think admin makes valid points and I definitely think that Snowheads in general and el Hen (when posting news) have done a hell of a lot of good for the image of Scottish skiing (as you rightly point out).
I'm sure that Doug wouldn't feel it unfair if I clearly state that he has his own agenda and it's not one I'm signed up to, the only ocassion I did agree that a headline might be a little misleading was, IIRC, the one about resorts closing early but these things happen and I ceertainly don't believe there is any anti-Scottish skiing agenda here ... in fact far from it!
I hope that's clarified my position and apologies if it wasn't clear before 
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Not been skiing in Scotland yet - it is too far from where I live to do a weekend and a week's holiday always has to be booked so far in advance with my OH's job that Scotland isn't worth the risk - it might be fantastic, or we might not get any skiiing.
Having been round a couple of the resorts in summer, my assessment would be that for us at our level (i.e. not good enough or mountain savvy enough to go off piste) there is not enough skiing for an entire week (barring lots of driving) and there is the risk of road closures preventing access to the mountain as there is no accommodation at the lifts. But it looks great for sneaky weekends if sneaky weekends were doable from our current location. If I lived somewhere north of Birmingham or in easy striking distance of Euston I would definitely be up for weekends. As it is we couldn't be worse positioned for UK skiing (and not fantastic for the continent given 2 hours from nearest sensibly priced airport...)
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I think we should build a bigger mountain 
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roga, no, I don't think you are complaining at all. In fact I think you're doing the the exact opposite: demonstrating that Scotland has excellent skiing available, and I enjoy seeing your obvious passion for it all I dare say that you're winning many more friends for Scottish skiing that the rather more critical approach that Haggis_Trap is taking.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| roga wrote: |
rob@rar, should have quoted the following in my post above rather than what I did, this is what made me think you might have me down as moaning (which of course I never ever do ... about anything ):
| rob@rar wrote: |
| roga, just as an observation, through the enthusiasm you share for Scottish skiing on the forum a number of snowHeads got together and travelled up to Scotland last season to sample what was on offer. They enjoyed the experience enough to arrange a repeat trip this coming season. My guess is that few of those people would have skied in Scotland if it hadn't been for your input. It seems to me there are better ways of slaying myths about how poor Scottish skiing is than complaining about some headlines you don't like. |
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Sorry if what I wrote was ambiguous - what I was trying to say that your approach seems a really good way of highlighting the best bits of Scottish skiing. Apologies if it didn't come across like that.
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FAQ
file in the bin 
