Not sure if this is better placed in the equipment section or Bend Zee Knees so I tossed a coin and here I am.
Inspired by comments in another thread I got thinking about how much equipment choice supports (or hinders) our ability to ski well. Probably no single answer as we are all individuals, and the definition of "wrong ski" is going to be ambiguous at best, but what does everyone else think? Undoubtedly skis can help us do some things better and make it easier to have more fun in tricky conditions such as deep snow, crusty snow, high speeds, ice, etc. But if a ski is designed to cope with extreme conditions particularly well does that mean in other conditions we might resort to bad habits rather than good skiing skills to get down the mountain? Or if the ski demands a very skilful input in order to get the best out of it do we rise to the challenge and find within us these skills?
For example, you like to ski fast on piste so you buy a pair of race department GS skis with a turn radius of 27m+ and stiff as a pair of stiff things. These are a bit of a handful and you need really good skills of edge control and pressure management (as well as FGs*) to get the best out of them. So, do you rise to the challenge and improve your skills, or do you start pivoting the skis at the start of each turn because you're not quite able to ski them in the same way that you ski your old piste cruisers?
Is there a point at which too much of a good thing becomes a bad thing when we are talking about skis?
* Ferrous Gonads.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rob@rar, Better to have a ski that's beyond your 'level' than one that's below.
As you say, some equipment is very focused. The example that springs to my mind are rocker ski's used on piste. I suspect that they would hinder some aspects of technical development.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
My poor equipment choices always hold me back from being the, expert Skier / driver/ businessman / athelete / rugger player / wit and raconteur that I know I am
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Mon 3-10-11 13:18; edited 1 time in total
rob@rar, If only I knew the answer to that question
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Been thinking about this myself, I probably bought the wrong width of board when I upgraded last time (a good few years ago now) - it's a mid-wide board so usually associated with people with larger feet. I have small feet (uk but justified it to myself that i was carrying a little more weight than average for someone my size, and that the extra width would give me more float in powder, plus it was ONLY a mid wide. I've gotten used to riding it now, and i love the ol' girl, but it did require a real mental gear change when i first started riding it, had to put alot more into my riding than I'd been doing on my original board, no more lazy, washy turns, proper commitment was rewarded.
I suppose the question is "has it made me a better snowboarder?" I think so, but i've probably traded one set of bad habits for another.
My 'piste' skis kick my back bottom and make me pay attention definitely improving how I ski. They are incredibly challenging to ski in mixed conditions and again I think it helps me keep on top of things. I definitely notice when I've spent lots of time gaping around on fat skis when I go back to the skinnies how much my technique has suffered, or 'adapted'.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
rob@rar, you've possibly answered your own question by the fact that you do that 'boots undone' drill. i.e. over emphasising a poor boot choice to improve technique
Mind you, I spent a day with you once where we skied on various ladies' Storm piste skis that were only about a metre long, and I didn't feel like that did very much for my technique other than my buttock clenching technique.
Clearly it's a damn scary face, and both are incredibly good skiers - massive respect for both of them!. Didier skied it fine with his race skis, but he was flailing round a lot and making it look like hard work. Kaj on his big skis ripped the proverbial out of it. That doesn't necessarily make Kaj the better skier (probably Defago is, it'd be interesting to see him do it on proper skis), but which would you rather be? With the old school piste ski brigade struggling down with the small turns and none-of-this-fat-ski-riff-raff, or using the proper tools, skiing hard and fast (in a way that frankly is impossible on piste skis) and having fun?
Of course the reverse is also true, if you do most of your skiing on piste you'd have to be an idiot to use big fat rockered planks, you just won't be able to make the most of the terrain and are limiting your potential in exactly the same way.
Last edited by After all it is free on Mon 3-10-11 14:13; edited 1 time in total
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
skiing the wrong ski all the time doesn't help anyone, but skiing the wrong ski some of the time might.
eg - i found my carving improved a lot after i had been using my first fat skis for a while. admittedly these were basically fat GS skis (Dynastar Legend Pros) so relatively suitable for this sort of thing. going back to skinny skis after that made carving easy. the LPs were something which rewarded being skied with an orthodox carving technique - trying likewise on a less traditionally shaped ski might not do you as much good
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
rob@rar wrote:
Is there a point at which too much of a good thing becomes a bad thing when we are talking about skis?
yes, completely. I've told this story on here before... yonks ago (early 80s) I had a Kiwi friend who was a proper (ie properly skint) ski bum in Verbier. I skied with him one day when on one foot he had a 210 GS ski and on the other he had a 223 DH ski that he had shortened from the tail by 13cm to match his 210. They were both Blizzards and roughly same graphic but there the similarity ended! He'd moved the bindings of course. Basically, people used to break loads of skis in the bumps on Mont Fort and he rescued the orphan skis and tried to make pairs. He was an awesome mogul skier and great in any conditions. So, in the simplest terms he was just adapting to the equipment and the conditions and clearly not expecting any help in return. He also stole my Raichle Flexons but that's another story.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
For the non-racer/professional freerider/park monkey you are always on the "wrong" skis I'd guess for over 50% of the day. So I think the answer is it's just skiing so no-one should sweat it too much.
I have doubts about whether many people on full RD skis really get to use their performance if they are skiing public pistes. Similar a truly fat rockered ski might be of limited application in dry european winter such as last year (although perfectly usable when things corned up).
But to answer the question - it depends. If technically proper skiing is just one thing in theory there will always be just one tool optimised for a single task. However most things in the toolbox require a blend of skills and tactics and ski type is just one more thing to adapt to, as is tune, boot fit, terrain, snow condition, mental state, fatigue, light, traffic etc.
I can totally see the merit in lets call it the "Instructor association" approach that says you should tool around in all conditions on a single pair of piste orientated skis. I can see how this makes for more technically precise instructors who have a certain degree of empathy with their pupils who, on average, don't have massive quivers. I'm not sure that all punters need be constrained by this and I do also believe that "you can buy a turn" in that some skis will really help you out in specific circumstance.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
fatbob wrote:
I'm not sure that all punters need be constrained by this and I do also believe that "you can buy a turn" in that some skis will really help you out in specific circumstance.
I agree with this, and in an ideal world everyone would have at least two pair of skis that they could choose from on any given day. But how many skiers own two pairs of skis, or more, and haul them around on every ski trip?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:
But how many skiers own two pairs of skis, or more, and haul them around on every ski trip?
Loads
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
rob@rar wrote:
But how many skiers own two pairs of skis, or more, and haul them around on every ski trip?
If you can keep yourself to a couple of pairs of skids max, sit in the bar in your LIFA and don't bother packing soap/shower gel/deodorant you can squeeze that extra pair in the bag below your weight allowance. Now we're only talking about degree of commitment.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
rob@rar's question is not really put in terms of piste vs offpiste skis.
I've seen this question often "which one will make me progress faster, a ski that's easier to drive or a tough one?" I think it really depends on the skier - some masochists will like their ski to punish them for every little error, and will learn enthusiastically with this incentive, while those fishing for compliments will gain confidence and improve more when their skis flatter their technique.
Same goes for offpiste skis only. I will actually be able to comment on this first hand after this season: my fat(tish) ski quiver is the DPS 112 RP which is a short-radius, big-rocker ski and the ON3P Wrenegade which has a smaller rocker, large radius and is much stiffer (though the same width underfoot).
I'm not sure that all punters need be constrained by this and I do also believe that "you can buy a turn" in that some skis will really help you out in specific circumstance.
I agree with this, and in an ideal world everyone would have at least two pair of skis that they could choose from on any given day. But how many skiers own two pairs of skis, or more, and haul them around on every ski trip?
I think quite a lot, it's easy to get two pairs in a big bag - and under the weight limit. Probably one of the main reasons inserts are becoming so popular!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
if you think back 'to the day' when there was really only one type of ski - the skier had to adapt their technique for whatever the conditions. So I think way too much emhpasis is put on type's of ski rather than adaptability of technique and skill. Sure modern skis may make it easier but 'easier' does not reflect skill as such. I'd argue that the wrong ski actually makes you a better skier after all some of the best skiers I have ever skied with off piste have been on the longest, skinniest skis you have every seen... on piste they rip it up to.... the long straight ski was harder to control and use therefore their skills are superb!
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
but justified it to myself that i was carrying a little more weight than average for someone my size, and that the extra width would give me more float in powder, plus it was ONLY a mid wide. I've gotten used to riding it now, and i love the ol' girl, but it did require a real mental gear change when i first started riding it, had to put alot more into my riding than I'd been doing on my original board, no more lazy, washy turns, proper commitment was rewarded.
