Man dies Skiing.................

A snowHead

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23992431-dead-skiers-family-to-sue-after-claiming-french-resort-failed-to-make-pistes-safe.do

A snowHead

these people clearly have not watched Blizzard of Aaaahs Confused

tragic accident for the family but how they can hope to prove negligence when the deceased was alone and there were no witnesses of his death is beyond me

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I normally dislike people trying to pass off responsibility onto others, but if it's true he was intending to stay on piste but got lost due to poor marking I can kinda see their point. With the comment about liking 'double black slopes' (didn't think we had those in Europe, do they mean offpiste route maybe?) I suspect (how's that for an assumption...) he deliberately went offpiste though.

Probably unlikely we'll ever know, and either way very sad.

Thoughts with his family.

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For once a ski death article that doesn't somehow get the word "helmet" in there.

Tragic for his family but, with or without signs, skiing off the edge is avoidable.

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Really not sure about this one. I fully understand the family wish to apportion the blame somewhere other than Mr Jackson. This is perfectly natural, but to carry it through the courts is, to say the least, self defeating. The stages of grief for a loved one are not set in stone by any means but they do follow a somewhat predictable course. This will simply stop the family moveing on from one stage to the next, for possibly years to come.

Even in the UK, with our, almost American, love of trying to gain a buck for any perceived wrong, we don’t put markers in every possible location that you could harm yourself, it would be impossible to do so, even if someone decided to.

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If this was the guy last winter skiing the back side of Le Tour and down into the nature reserve, then i'm sorry of course but it is all off piste down there and a wrong turn, will me almost certain death, there are some massive cliffs, 500m +, it is simply impossible to go there if you don't deliberately duck the ropes and there are clear warnings. If it's not the same guy then I don't know, the skier's profile would suggest he was daring and probably an off piste skier. The sport is dangerous and will claim lives, I wish the family only well in the reconciliation of their loss.

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SMALLZOOKEEPER, fully agree with you

After all it is free

^ SZK above probably sums it up. Seems an untenable case without any evidence that CMB was at fault. You do have to wonder at the type of lawyers who take this sort of lawsuit and while I've sympathy with the family that it happens i've got none with them bringing a frivilous action (assuming reporting is accurate/ not really prompted by his life insurers etc etc)

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^ a friend of mine used to work for Iriwn Mitchell and they were quite respectable as these places go. that said, they did do some stuff which was ground breaking or highly speculative depending on how you looked at it

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Such legal cases happen more than often than you think...
The ski resorts are generally proven not be at fault if someone is off piste - but it costs them in legal fees.

One of La Graves biggest expenses is (apparently) defending legal cases and resulted in the current signs back to P1. Verbier had a similiar case in the late 1990s when an American died skiing off piste on Mt Gele. The cable car remained shut for several years until it was resolved.

SMALLZOOKEEPER, ...agree with your sentiments.

some weird bits of reporting;

chamonix in mt blanc (?)
double black - if they said this then they were more attuned to american reports where the signing is very different

and

He said Mr Jackson's jacket was equipped with a tracking device and he tried to raise the alarm but staff refused to listen to him.
(this doesn't sound like the chamonix staff)

Recording a narrative verdict, deputy assistant coroner Caroline Sumeray said: "Mr Jackson was found buried under snow dislodged by a small avalanche. However, he didn't die there, that was where he was certified to be dead. The cause of death is unascertained."

very odd.

Our family treats the mountains as if they are our back yard - mainly because they are our backyard - a beautiful backyard full of ravines, concealed hazards, etc which need care. Not neurotic attention, but care and awareness. At Crans, two Dutch boys and their father stayed off piste, I think on their first afternoon, in low cloud, and two of them went 50m left through trees, and over a 500m cliff which goes right to the bottom of the Tsuzier Valley. The Swiss attitude to this is sadness for the family, but a shrug of the shoulders and '...it's a cliff, if you go off piste with no knowledge and no guide, bad things can happen'.

Around things which we would put a fence and a sign 'danger - cliff' - the swiss tend to think that the cliff speaks for itself, there it is, if you go over, it's your fault. I tend towards the same view. Off piste where we are varies from great fun to great danger. There are some sections of convex hill which are truly very dangerous. And let's face it there are some days of poor viz wgere you could go down 20m from the piste and it would be very difficult for people to find you.

Just by way of example, one acute danger which few English children and parents are aware of in the Alps is being carried under ice in streams - small attractive hole into rushing water - interesting how the snow and ice tumble in and disappear into a long black tunnel when you kick it in - fall in and whoosh, you're metres in under deep ice in a raging torrent. Not neurotic to be aware of it, it just contributes to 'mountain knowledge'.

In the case reported I just can't see the point of suing. I've had vague piste marking in various resorts, hard in low light, but you read the snow, stop, and proceed with caution. If you do not have accumulated knowledge under your belt, or are buying the services of someone who has, then beware.

You know it makes sense.

valais2, It isn't just in the Alps many English young and old fail to understand the risks of the open environment. I live on the edge of the Peak District and every year the local mountain rescue teams are kept busy fishing people out of the sticky situations they have got themselves into on the moors and crags round here. And of the none outdoor sports type folk most of the rescued had no idea of the possibility that the weather and terrain in central England was perfectly capable of killing them in very short order!

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

The man died somewhere adjacent to the Solange piste at Le Tour.

I guess most people who have skied a bit at Le Tour will have had the experience of following the piste markers back to the Chalet de Charamillion after the weather closes in. It's a featureless and windy place, but even in a white out it is possible to follow the piste markers if you take care.

http://www.chamonet.com/whats_new_article.php?id_whats_new=6130

A snowHead

Hmm, from Oceanic's link, "He was not equipped with an avalanches transceiver and reports vary as to whether he was skiing 'between the pistes' or whether he had strayed around five metres off the piste.". So sounds like his jackets 'tracking device' was a recco and of course even a transceiver isn't any use without someone there with you to dig you out!

A snowHead

valais2 Spot on.

I feel for the family but pursuing this case through the court (regardless of the outcome) is wrong. The guy would have known the dangers and, if he loved the freedom of the mountains the way we do, would not want this to compromise others' pleasure.

Also, this type of reporting is both lazy and infuriating. The writer obviously has very little knowledge of winter sports; is probably a graduate staffer; cares little about accuracy or context but knows the story must be "sexed-up" No-one can know what the skier was doing prior to his death but this type of reporting is bollux.

Caption under photo: "Chamonix: Dead skier's family to sue over claims pistes are not safe"
This is an example of dreadful sub editing for effect. No piste is safe. All pistes are dangerous. Some more dangerous then others.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I usually try to avoid passing any comment on threads like this out of respect for the family of the deceased. However in this case I think that, by choosing to bring the matter to the courts, the family have opened themselves up to fair comment.

I sincerely hope that the case does come to court, and that it does not end up being settled out of court, without the claims made by the family being properly tested.

I guess it would be up to the plaintiff to prove that CMB's marking of the piste was inadequate, and that Mr Jackson left the piste accidentally.

Obviously CMB does have some responsibility to mark pistes properly, as most skiers don't carry a map and compass. I've skied the Solange piste a few times in a whiteout (when making my way back after skiing in the trees under the Tete de Balme lift). I have found CMB's piste marking at Le Tour comparable to that at other resorts, ie it is possible to follow the piste markers in a whiteout so long as you ski cautiously.

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SMALLZOOKEEPER, I was at Le Tour on Boxing day 2009 and watched the recovery of this man's body, the back bowl incident was I think a couple of days earlier. Late on Xmas day was very foggy and I was told that he and his friends were skiing down the front side at the very end of the day. When they reassembled at the bottom this chap was missing. They alerted the piste patrol who did a couple of laps of the piste but found nothing in the fog and gathering darkness.

The next day when it was clear, the man appeared to have skied off the right side of the red piste above the Charamillion Restaurant below the Tete de Balme, but not that far off the side. Its not known if he even intended to ski off piste, but maybe not, as it was so foggy it would have been easy to stray off the side. The account I heard was that he had skied over a roller and the snow had followed him and buried him, the recovery seemed close to the ravine.

There seems to be many contributory factors as there often is in fatal incidents, the fog, unstable snow, maybe inadequate side piste markings and experience, plus a split party. One factor that I would not agree with would be inadequate avalanche control work as the incident was off piste.

Personally I think the bar should be set very high in compensation cases not involving mechanical equipment failure in adventure sports.

A sad incident in an area that is regarded as relatively safe. This holiday was quite shocking for me, I observed two recoveries of dead bodies plus witnessed a man falling fatally from a balcony in chamsud. A couple of weeks later witnessed a body being pulled from an avalanche in Courmayeur.

Not a good season.

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A couple of years ago, in Flaine, we went up grand vans after a snowfall and it was a whiteout at the top. We skied down Dolomie but couldn't see the width of the piste. Anyway we became disorientated and when we came to a piste pole marking the edge we didnt know which edge it was. There is a fairly steep cliff edge one way. It was only when we saw the electric pylon looming out of the fog that we were able to ascertain exactly where we were. If we did not know the area it could have ended badly. We went straight back up a back to the Flaine bowl where it was fine.
I guess my point is that I have thought that red poles one side and blue the other would be a good idea.

After all it is free

Zero-G, Point taken. 2 different colours, Int'l standard is what I was getting at. I didnt know about the dayglo strip but I dont think it is very widespread looking at some of the pics I've taken. It is certainly not mentioned on any piste map I've ever seen.

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I agree that skiing in bad weather is dangerous. You cannot see where the ground is never mind where the piste is! While I have sympathy with the relations of the deceased, any dependents will benefit from winter sports accidental death insurance and also any occupational death benefit paid out of a pension scheme.

Of course, if he was single with no spouse or dependents, that would mean no benefit in most pension schemes although there may be a payment under a winter insurance policy if he took one out and somebody witnessed that he did.

Death is a hazard in any sport, however some people take more risks than others making their death more likely. If he was not supporting the family in any way I cannot see how they can make a claim as dependents?

In any event, if there were no witnesses to the accident, then there can be no conclusion as to the reason for the accident (unless a post mortem indicates alcohol or drugs were involved)

rolling eyes

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What does it matter? No amount of cash is going to resurrect him. As always, the only folk that are guaranteed to profit out of a case this are scumbag, blood-sucking, ambulance-chasing lawyers that have no empathy nor interest in its implications to real people's lives. rolling eyes

You know it makes sense.

moffatross, insurance companies will benefit too, surely? Resorts will pay more for insurance against this type of litigation. Punters will pay more for insurance against rescue and injury. And that raises another point: any sport that requires insurance for rescue, recovery (in the case of death) and injury implies risk. Therefore, if you do that sport and buy the insurance, you are acknowledging the possibility bodily harm/death.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

The back of my 2010/2011 Espace Killy piste map says:

A snowHead

A snowHead

Zero-G, .. re the pole marking re left and right you're right to raise it - there are different systems of marking in different places and countries but few people seem to bother to note what system is in place. A friend of mine who travels a lot always checks where the fire exits are when he stays in a large hotel - sounds mad until you read about what has happened in fires abroad. In contrast, but in the same vein, I think things like piste markings and many other conventions are treated very casually - they just expect to able to get into resort and get straight onto the piste and off they go. But in extreme conditions - such as whiteout - the details matter. The mountains require accumulated wisdom and great respect. Chamonix is not like Escape.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Michael B, Zero-G, most ski resorts I have skied have a left right marking scheme on the piste poles. However there is no standard system. In cham a its small orange band one side and a wide orange band on the other.

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Michael B, afai was aware all LHS piste markers have the dayglo? It is certainly seems to be the case in Les Arcs.

Perhaps if they do, it's something worth pointing out rather than finding out...?

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But then jbob says both sides have the dayglo except one is wider. Just trawled through the few pics I have of Cham pistes and can only see dayglo orange on the right-hand side piste markers.

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It sounds like it is clear as mud how this guy died and hopefully common sense will prevail and this case will get nowhere

After all it is free

Zero-G, ...there are indeed different conventions in different places...and where we are in Switzerland there is a sign at all major lift stations which makes very clear the convention. You see hardened skiers from other parts of Switzerland reading these in detail - they want to know as much as they can about the place re markings, environmentally sensitive areas, areas of high avalanche risk (we have one of the most avalanche prone runs in the Alps - Tubang), etc. It takes 5 mins to read these, and we take a look at the meteo postings too - they show fronts coming in which bring snow (hurrah!!!) or the foehn from the South (booo...). But back to the guy in the story. Who knows what was going through his head and what he thought he was doing. In a whiteout you need to ski within your limits, even if that means stopping every 2 metres. I've strayed off piste in zero viz, but have always known immediately that that has happened by reading the snow. It usually changes, sometimes only a subtle change, but it is different. For some, getting to an 'experienced' level in skiing is all about ski technique. For me and fellow climbers, it's about accumulating both technique and knowledge about the high mountains. For example, I was hacking steps across the slope up to the Bertol hut once, with my brother in tow, in very changeable conditions - wind, cloud, and rain/snow. We'd come off mixed ground and were using axes to chop up the next snow section. And I just had a feeling...and I simply said, '...we're turning round, I don't like the snow...'... and, good of him, he just turned and down we went, the cloud having closed and viz was 3-4m. Thirty minutes later, back on mixed ground, we looked back as the cloud lifted, and the whole of the slope had gone - 2m deep sluff avalanche, which had tracked maybe 250m. Thousands of tons of snow. Almost all the guides I know have similar stories. It's not magic, you just develop a sense of what's right and what isn't - the sound of the snow, the texture of it, etc etc. And you're not necessarily consciously aware of the specifics, but you are aware of something feeling wrong. I've known people stop in zero viz off-piste and know that they shouldn't go forward - they've just sensed a void in front. On some occasions this has been life saving. God only knows what occurred that day in Chamonix, and it's terribly sad, but suing is not the right thing. Piste poles fall down; idiots take them out; in the high mountains, you've mostly only got yourself to blame - not always, but mostly....

Help!!

Man dies Skiing.................

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