 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi all,
I've registered just to try to pick the brains of some of the more experienced members a little. I'm at an age now where I want to think about a career in winter sports, or perhaps tourism in general, rather than a succession of exciting but bottom-level jobs in exotic places. I'm not knocking such placements at all, I've had great fun doing them, but I don't want to do them any longer. I've got an M.A. under my belt from a good university, and plenty of good experience and references from jobs that I've done up to now. I'm hopefully the kind of individual that could forge out a successful career and end up promoted one day to a reasonable level.
I currently have 3 options. One is a resort manager position for large British T.O. company in Europe. On paper this seems a wonderful first step into the 'serious' side of things. I could do a couple of seasons as RM, learn the ropes, perhaps get promoted to Area Manager and then head on into head office. However, I'm not 100% sure that it works like that. From everything I've seen, the operations team seems to be heavily separated from the side of things where people earn real money, and it would be tough to make that transition. I'd love somebody with some experience to comment on whether it is possible to start as an RM and end up as say head of marketing in 20 years time. Would big companies look to promote from their overseas teams, or would I be likely to be overlooked in favour of the latest intake of graduates with Tourism Management degrees?
The second is a position as an instructor in China. While this is a less corporate thinking job than RM, I'm interested because it looks like the Chinese market could explode. The skills working out there with Chinese customers could also be useful in other areas. The major downside to this position is that I'd be working on the service delivery side of things - an area where I already have experience - and missing out on the accounts and management experience that an RM position would give me. The purpose behind taking up this position would therefore to be give myself specialist knowledge of the Chinese market in a bid to making myself more attractive to other employers. Again, I'd love anybody with experience to comment on the viability of that plan, particularly the relative value of management experience Vs experience in the Chinese market.
The third option is to abandon all thoughts of working my way up through the ranks, retrain with skills in something that ski companies use such as marketing or accounting and then enter an organisation that way. I could also have a crack at the grad schemes of big travel companies, although they're extremely hard to get onto.
At the moment I'm heavily leaning towards taking the RM position in Europe, with the aim of working my way up through the ranks while still getting a good day's skiing in. However, I've found careers advice in extremely short supply and before I finally commit I thought I'd just ask the question in a few likely looking places.
Many thanks for any replies!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I did one season as an RM. For me it was just a fun stopgap between university courses, not a career. I only managed to bag the RM job because the original candidate bailed out just before the season start and I have good language skills.
Good points: being in resort, my own room (reps and chalet staff had to share), better pay (although still not good), no evening work, managed to ski most days.
Bad points: dealing with problem customers and problems in general, lots of paperwork, lots of staff issues.
I'm pretty sure our AM had previously been an RM so career progression should be possible. However, this was 20 years ago.
You'll probably get better advice on Natives.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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If you're a Mandarin speaker already I'd have thought on the ground experience in China working with Chinese snowsports consumers would be pretty sellable to western ski brands seeking to penetrate the market or even resort companies. However your 3rd option is probably the way to actually progress fastest.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I've got no experience of winter sports work other than what I've seen as a punter. But that's not going to stop me posting my thoughts.
The trouble with options one and two is that the work is going to be short term/seasonal. What are you going to do for the other 7 months in the year? I think that the way forward is to develop skills that are attractive over a wide range of tourism options. What are your language skills? if you want to get involved in the Chinese tourism market I would think that developing some ability in Mandarin would be a pretty good start.
Perhaps it would be worth investing a year in getting general Resort Manager experience, if you could get a job over the ski season as a RM, then transfer to a summer RM role, while at the same time showing/developing apropriate language and management skills you might be able to leverage that experience into a more long term role in a major tour operator.
I'm pretty certain that it would be very difficult/impossible to have a successful career in the tourism industry based on the ski side alone. Probably the only way would be to start up your own business with some unique product filling a niche that others havn't spotted.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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pam w, I'm not sure that Mandarin is that difficult to learn. A friend with no noticeable linguistic skills went to China on holiday aged 30, fell in love with the place and resolved to learn the language. After 6 months of evening classes in London he went back for an extended holiday. A year later he jacked in his London job and went to work as a sub editor on a Beijing based English language newspaper. 18 years on he's still there, now working as a freelance journalist. His Mandarin is, by all accounts, virtually perfect.
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Thanks for the replies.
Queen bodecia - I'm aware that RMs can progress to AMs, but I want to go further than this - AM is still only a 12k per year post, albeit all expenses paid. I'm never going to retire off that... This is what I mean when I say that the operational side of things seems to be entirely separate from the real money. I'd be entirely happy to work as an AM, I think it sounds a great job, as long as I knew that it was going to lead somewhere one day... I don't seem able to get that confirmation from anybody.
Pam - an instructor means ski and snowboard instructor - their standards are currently a bit loose over there  My Mandarin is pretty decent, although it will certainly be greatly improved by a season over there. What I'm really after from that position is some kind of unique perspective on a market that I know a lot of companies are eying up greedily that will then make me extremely employable to a company trying to create a product aimed at Chinese tourists. I'd also have thought that would be a great advantage, but again, I'm unable to get confirmation. In terms of others skills from that post, I'll build on my customer service and delivery skills, but they won't be as good as the budget management, accounting, staff management kind of skills I'd get from being an RM. I'd have been very happy to have taken this role on at 18 just having left school, but at 26 and 2 years out of uni I really want to think about a job that will eventually lead to a serious salary.
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Vital information, you've got Mandarin! Go for it. A qualified ski instructor with decent Mandarin must be a pretty rare bird I'd have thought. Getting over there early and learning how the system works would put you in a pretty good place for the future.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Tbh...Reading your posts are confusing.
Personally I don't think it's possible to have a financially rewarding 'Career' if you are looking to 'get a good day's skiing in as well'.
You are either in the office or on the road all day if you want a financially rewarding job.
Even as a Ski Instructor you are not going to earn good money. Having your 'office' in the mountains and being able to ski everyday is the reward you get for not being paid big money.
If you want a well paid career, I can't see you ever skiing everyday, if ever at all, apart from holidays.
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jiagedaping, Simon Cross Managing Director at Crystal Ski is a registered snowHead why not drop him a private message (send/read messages top right) I would guess he shares your interest in the Chineses market as well.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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You're right, let me clarify.
Firstly, financially rewarding doesn't necessarily mean massive bucks for me - although I wouldn't say no. I'm not driven to own a garage full of ferraris for example, but I eventually aspire to house ownership and a family.
I'm happy to work up through the RM/AM/head office progression. This will give me a good day's skiing while I'm learning some basic business skills, which will decrease (my AM last season got in 2 days' skiing over the season - something I'm more than happy to accept) as my salary increases. I'm very happy to take this route if it gets me where I want to be. AM is 12k per year and from talking to people I get the impression that there's very much a limit to how high that route can take you. The big benefit with this route is that I do know there's summer work available, so I'd be on the start of a safe and secure ladder - I just need to know how high that ladder goes and how many rungs are on the way. To clarify - at the moment I get the impression from talking to people that around AM level you hit a glass ceiling and people from other backgrounds tend to be preferred. I'd absolutely love to work my way up the RM/AM route, but before setting out on that route I need to be sure that I'm not heading down a dead-end street.
I'm not actually looking to do the position in China with the intent to build up my instructor qualifications. That's a route that I'd love to do in another life maybe... I'd be looking to do that to gain some invaluable experience that say TUI or Club Med would be fighting over when they decide they want to open tourism offices in China for skiing holidays in the Alps or the USA - a situation that I don't think is too far off now. Maybe it'll prove valuable in a different form, perhaps a British entertainment company wanting to open say a chain of cinemas, shopping malls or supermarkets in China who needs someone with a solid educational background and direct experience with affluent Chinese customers. However, while it sounds great in theory, I've not actually had much interest in practice, so before accepting that placement I'd want to be really sure that there was a career path, otherwise I'd very quickly end up on a min-wage job in the UK wishing I'd accepted the other role!
Hope that clears things up.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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jiagedaping, if you go the RM/AM route, you forgo your advantages - you're just the same as anyone else. Doesn't sound too attractive to me, though maybe you're not ready to give up your snow fix just yet. I'd go to China. Without the Chinese skiing perspective, there's a disconnect between your knowledge of Mandarin and your usefulness to a TO. There is an increasing number of people in the West with skills in Mandarin and with ski instructor qualifications, but as Spud9 states, not with both. Working in a ski resort in China will put you in an almost unique position of being someone the big Western TOs would be comfortable employing but who has skills in Mandarin, skills in the side of the industry they are aiming to develop and real on-the-ground experience of how it all comes together. Definitely follow boredsurfin's excellent suggestion as well.
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Go to China.
- You may hate it after a season there. It will remove all future doubt in the form of "could have, should have". You tried it and it's not for you.
- You fall in love with the country and the culture. You stay there, make friends and connection. Build your own career/business on tourism. It could be sending Chinese skier to the west or westerners to China. Or maybe it's got nothing to do with skiing and you end up running a cycling tour op instead! You look for the niche and sky is the limit. Remember, there're how many Chinese in China? (and it's a fairly large country too) 
- You neither hate nor love it. Still, you have gained first hand experience of how the tourism and particularly ski industry works in China. And you probably build some Chinese connections too. You're now valuable to a wide range of industry (ski equipment, winter clothing, whatever) that need to market in China! What's not to like?
Reading your posts between the lines (I maybe way off base). I feel you should re-think what your "career path" should look like. Instead of a job in a big company and steady promotion, you might do better to focus on making yourself extremely valuable in area of relatively little competition!
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You know it makes sense.
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You write too well for any of your suggested routes to challenge you intellectually. I suggest:
1. RM etc. works 7 days a week during the skiing season, so never skis. Why bother.
2. Instead go to work in a bank in Geneva. Ski the weekends and your six weeks' holiday a year.
3. Work in Edinburgh and ski in Scotland.
It seems to me that working in the ski industry is the best way to get *no* skiing, not more.
(I guess I should point out I do not work in the ski industry, I do not speak Mandarin either.)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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In my experience the Hong Kong based and mainland based Chinese with money and influence do not ski in China.
They ski on Hokkaido (my experience) and the main island of Japan; Europe; Canada; USA.
Do you hold current Instructor certification?
If so I would suggest working a season instructing in Japan teaching English language students, Chinese language students, and once you've been there a while Japanese language students.
If you've got anything about you, the transition from servicing these customers as an instructor to servicing these customers at a resort managerial level will become evident.
And I'm talking ski resort management not tour operator management.
You may want to look at Club Med in Sahoro, Hokkaido as a starting point.
http://www.clubmed.com.au/cm/all-inclusive-vacations-asian-snow_p-14-l-AE-zc-17-pa-RECHERCH6-ac-vz.html
http://www.clubmedjobs.com/index.php
I wish you all the best.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Mike Pow pointed out a very interesting direction worthy of serious consideration by the OP. However, I also see some serious flaws.
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If so I would suggest working a season instructing in Japan teaching English language students, Chinese language students, and once you've been there a while Japanese language students. |
Let's for the moment assume the OP does have instructor's certificate to get that out of way.
To instruct in Japan at this point, he'll have to deal with learning Japanese, even if he doesn't teach Japanese speaking students. And his Chinese, while "decent" by his own estimation, will not improve much living in Japan, even if he gets some chance to teach Chinese speaking students from time to time. We don't even know if his current Chinese is good enough to be effective as an instructing medium either. In any case, he has to deal with two eastern languages instead of one, which can't be easy. Basically, he's just giving up his lead in Chinese and gone to the back of the line as any other English speaker instructors arriving in Japan.
I would suggest going to China at this point. Get comfortable with the language. If he later decides to go to Japan, he has that in his back pocket. I imagine proficiency in Chinese would help in learning of Japanese too.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Thanks for your comments and thoughts - this has proven to be an excellent source of knowledge. I think the thing that I'm really struggling with is working out just how valuable each experience is. For example, a mid-sized RM in Europe will be dealing with 250 guests per week, will manage 20 staff and will deal with a season turnover of approx 3m euros. I'm unsure of how 'good' that is. It sounds like a lot of responsibility to me right now, but in the real world I'm not so sure that's the case.
On the other hand, my initial opinion was similar to abc's:
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Still, you have gained first hand experience of how the tourism and particularly ski industry works in China. And you probably build some Chinese connections too. You're now valuable to a wide range of industry (ski equipment, winter clothing, whatever) that need to market in China! What's not to like?
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One thing that I spent this summer doing was handing my CV around / getting on the phone to a large number of firms who sell ski equipment / packages in China and unfortunately I didn't receive any positive responses. The overwhelming sentiment was that I was trying to create a job opening rather than fitting to one that they're looking to fill. They all seem to promote internally to people who have some interest in doing what they're currently doing for the company in China rather than recruiting China specialists, and of course to join these companies in the first place they're looking for relevant skills which I currently lack. To give an example, I'm vaguely acquainted with an individual from a UK based TO who was sent over to China to set up a part of their operation over there creating travel agents to sell holidays to the Chinese. This lady had no China knowledge whatsoever, she was straight off the grad scheme, and left after a few months with an enormous severance package. This is why I'm heavily leaning towards the RM position at the moment; while it seems to me that spending a season out in China should have companies snapping my hand off, this hasn't been the case up to now. Maybe I am best just getting into the company and taking things from there?
I'm keeping everything anonymous because I'm sure that representatives of both companies browse this forum and I don't want to appear to be playing with their job offers. Just to fill in the gaps though, I've lived over there for a couple of years already, and I'm able to get myself a BASI level 1 qualification before I head out to China. Even though that's not a great qualification, it's ample for the slopes over there and the company I'd be working was in fact happy to offer me a job based on the fact that I can do a black... Definitely early days in the Chinese snowsports arena!
I'll certainly be sending Simon an email to see if he's willing to offer some advice, and I'd love to hear more from the users - you've given me a lot to think about. I'm going to sleep on the advice given so far, and respond to some of the opinions tomorrow.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Last little point - I'd be confident teaching in Chinese at present. I'd certainly need some training to get some of the vocab up to scratch, but after a month or 2 out there I'm sure I'd be very happy. I would definitely improve a lot as a result of the experience though.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I would add Calgary to the list.
or Work in the oilsands on shift rotations, you'll earn a fortune and get half the year off!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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This lady had no China knowledge whatsoever, she was straight off the grad scheme, and left after a few months with an enormous severance package. This is why I'm heavily leaning towards the RM position at the moment; while it seems to me that spending a season out in China should have companies snapping my hand off, this hasn't been the case up to now. Maybe I am best just getting into the company and taking things from there?
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That's why most companies don't do well in China (or for that matter, not well in any new market)! The mentality of sending "their" people to a new environment they know nothing about, trying to market the same way they know how back home. And when those venture failed, the staff goes home "with an enormous severance package"! Is that what you want your career to look like?
The reality is few people can bridge across culture well. The Chinese they hire over there probably don't fit in the western corperate culture well. And the western staff don't know squat about Chinese market. So if you can get a handle on that, maybe you don't need a "job" but just be a high price consultant isntead!
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| The overwhelming sentiment was that I was trying to create a job opening rather than fitting to one that they're looking to fill. |
You were talking to the wrong people. Get yourself known to the people who could actually CREATE a job openning for you!
I don't know much about the ski industry in China. But I do know quite a few people who gone working in China. They had no trouble finding paying job/work, IN CHINA. A few of my compatriots were making loads more in China than the rest of us in the west, and living like kings over there. But it's not a place for everyone. A few also left with tails between their legs. So keep that in mind. If you want to live in Europe, going to China might not be the right thing to do. But if you want a career path that supports family and retirement in comfort, you have something unique that could get you there real fast!
BTW, unless I'm missing something new and big, I don't recall a lot of big ski resorts in China. So if you want a lot of skiing, I'm not sure that's the place to be. You might end up having an exciting career but have to go skiing in Japan
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Fri 23-09-11 1:40; edited 1 time in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Straight answer - go and have your fun, enjoy doing some ski instructing, being a resort manager if you can get the job, spend a couple of years doing it if you like.
If you can possibly find a way to improve your Mandarin, then when you decide to go and get a "real" job - as in a job in an office somewhere that pays more than minimum wage - if you have Mandarin, even just spoken with a reasonable understanding, you will be indespensible right now.
I know a number of big companies that will take people with English (you clearly have that!) and Mandarin with no skills whatsoever, because they can teach you marketing, sales, operations, even accountancy etc, but they can't teach you Mandarin in a reasonable timeframe. The minimum basic salary for someone with both languages, fluent written and verbal, would be about £30K, with 2 years experience in a useful area you can probably make that £40K. That's enough to drive a nice car, pay the mortgage in most parts of the country, and a few ski trips besides.
If you really really want to work in the ski industry then there will be lots of opportunity for someone who can talk with manufacturers in China (almost every big manufacturer has at least some of their production either outsourced to China if not the whole shooting match) however I'd seriously consider that you could earn enough money in the dayjob to have 3 or 4 ski trips a year comfortably.
None of this explores the options to work for big ski companies in China - you may have noticed a rather large number of Chinese tourists, and this number is increasing as China becomes more affluent, so if you could offer a company the ability to provide ski trips to Europe, the US or NZ for Chinese customers then there might be a decent job there with good prospects because you'll probably be getting in to a growth area that has the potential to be very profitable.
My advice would be to keep the door open to all options, to enjoy life right now if you have very little tying you down, and that no experience is bad experience. Well, other than experience of torture. That's not good experience. Go out and enjoy it, and when you're bored of it either do something different or do the same thing somewhere else. It sounds like you have little to lose, and very little that won't be here when you get back if it doesn't work out or you change your mind.
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jiagedaping,
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For example, a mid-sized RM in Europe will be dealing with 250 guests per week, will manage 20 staff and will deal with a season turnover of approx 3m euros. I'm unsure of how 'good' that is. It sounds like a lot of responsibility to me right now, but in the real world I'm not so sure that's the case.
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I agree with you that, if you're looking for a lucrative career (which, with your obvious intellectual skills, you should have no problem achieving) a European RM job will be enjoyable enough - and probably quite easy for you - but not 'useful' in terms of serious career progression.
I'd second slikedges' advice in every detail. And it does indeed all depend on whether you've had enough of a snow fix at this point, I really don't think you can combine a serious career with loads of time on the snow. (I did a RM job as a sort of sabbatical, two years' after qualifying as a solicitor, I was lucky to have been able to take a career break at that point. The job, much as described by queen bodecia, was a piece of pi$$ for someone with half a brain, adequate numeracy skills - not my strong point, actually - and some 'people' skills. Her 'bad points' did not, however, particularly strike me as such - they were just part of the job.)
Good luck. Whatever you decide, I suspect you'll do well.
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Hi jiagedaping,
I don't know anything about the chinese market, but I know a bit about the more traditional model with a UK office and European ops which I've put below - feel free to PM me any questions. I suspect that you are already aware of that from your query, but most larger and more professional ski companies have "two sides" - in resort operations work (staff, properties, management, contracting etc) and UK side (sales, accounts, recruitment etc). The only people who really work on both sides are CEOs, Directors or General Managers etc most of whome are UK based.
Working on the Uk side is a career in tourism but (I assume) very unlike what you have done before. There isn't anything massively ski or tourism related about it, other than the company which you are working for. So, by that I mean that most employers would prefer to recruit someone for the sales team who has extensive sales experience, rather than a tourism degree if that makes sense.
If you are keen to go down that route, your best bet is to get some experience of sales working for a tourism company at the hands-on level (about 12-14k a year starting) and then see what you would like to do after that. This is a good time to be applying for peak sales vacancies - try the bigger ski companies' own recruitment pages and New Frontiers agency.
Working on the ops side let you live and work in a ski resort which is ultimately a more lifestyle job. As an RM you'll probably still be able to ski most days but once you progress beyond that you'll need to work more "office hours" and ski on your days off. There are plenty of year round, reasonably paid jobs in this sector but you'll never be on 60k a year.
To go this route you should take an RM job with a well respected mainstream company (think TUI, Ski World, Direct Ski, Neilson, Scott Dunn etc) and make it clear that you are looking for a career and not a season. Then, once you've got a season or two under your belt start applying for promotions or higher-up roles with other companies - you'll find that this happens faster than you think as the staff turnover for seasonal positions is high. You'll need to be prepared to learn the local language and work challenging hours in the winter, but jobs like property contracting, operations managers, office managers, transport managers, heads of country etc all earn living wages.
Until we started our own mini-chalet business, I had worked my way up through the ops side of the industry, starting off as an assistant resort manager and finishing by managing a small-meduim sized niche tour operator so it can definitely be done.
Good luck with whatever you decide!
Heather
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| abc wrote: |
That's why most companies don't do well in China (or for that matter, not well in any new market)! The mentality of sending "their" people to a new environment they know nothing about, trying to market the same way they know how back home. ...
The reality is few people can bridge across culture well. The Chinese they hire over there probably don't fit in the western corperate culture well. And the western staff don't know squat about Chinese market. So if you can get a handle on that, maybe you don't need a "job" but just be a high price consultant isntead! |
My point exactly.
| abc wrote: |
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| The overwhelming sentiment was that I was trying to create a job opening rather than fitting to one that they're looking to fill. |
You were talking to the wrong people. Get yourself known to the people who could actually CREATE a job openning for you! |
Jobs don't come into existence until the people who might fill them exist too.
| abc wrote: |
| BTW, unless I'm missing something new and big, I don't recall a lot of big ski resorts in China. So if you want a lot of skiing, I'm not sure that's the place to be. You might end up having an exciting career but have to go skiing in Japan |
AIUI there is a lot of ski resort development in China. Lots of cold mountainous regions but problem is most are arid.
Monium, you make some very good points - most of which would surely steer him towards gaining first-hand knowledge of the Chinese ski industry now?
Pedantica, exactly my impression of an RM job!
Snow and Sunshine, thanks for filling in that side of things - never seem to hear that much about it
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| Monium wrote: |
None of this explores the options to work for big ski companies in China - you may have noticed a rather large number of Chinese tourists, and this number is increasing as China becomes more affluent, so if you could offer a company the ability to provide ski trips to Europe, the US or NZ for Chinese customers then there might be a decent job there with good prospects because you'll probably be getting in to a growth area that has the potential to be very profitable.
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The big market for Chinese skiers at the moment is Japan.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| he trouble with options one and two is that the work is going to be short term/seasonal. What are you going to do for the other 7 months in the year? |
Most of the big TOs have summer and winter operations so working all year round is not that hard, perhaps with some short gaps. However this will usually be on a series of 6 month contracts. At one time the Thomson computer system had all the ski packs and stuff registers as buckets and spades as their system was only adapted for the summer. You had to know that Mr Brown's deck chair hire for the week was really advanced level skis.
There is no problem doing the progression Rep -> RM -> AM -> head office as far as I can see. Some also do Rep -> Contractor -> Head Office. Some of the senior people in TOs started as reps. The main requirement are good mgt and commercial skills esp. with attention to detail as mistakes can be expensive.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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It's been asked before but worth repeating: what do you really want out of your career?
If skiing is the objective, it's quite possible that working in the winter sports industry won't deliver that much.
If it's using your Mandarin as competitive advantage to a faster career, great, but winter sports may not fit in there.
Are you passionate about winter sports or about the tourism industry in general?
Can you quantify that passion? I.e. if you faced the choice, would you prefer working in the mountains for X, in the tourism industry in Shanghai for 3X but with no time off for skiing, or in London (or, better, Geneva) with 5 weeks holiday and 2X salary?
If you just want to live in the mountains, there are a number of things that have nothing to do with a career as usually understood. Many people think that is the key to happiness. Others like me prefer to combine a job that has nothing to do with wintersports, with a lot of holiday time in the mountains. If only someone could drag this city I'm in about 300 miles closer to the Alps.
Good luck, you seem to be a smart person.
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
The big market for Chinese skiers at the moment is Japan. |
Surely this will change as the Chinese middle class grows? Just as many Brits got their first skiing kicks in Andorra or Bulgaria what better way for the Chinese to try it out than at their own (cheaper) resorts (assuming of course that domestic resorts do not premium price). From there the "prestige" associated with Western world resorts also becomes a draw so Japan wouldn't necessarily be the limit. After all there are always plenty of Japanese in Whistler.
I don't think it's purely a co-incidence Reno-Tahoe has been hosting the Miss China contest this week http://unofficialnetworks.com/china-decided-tahoe-18-hottest-girls-china-tahoe-week-43380/
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
AIUI there is a lot of ski resort development in China. Lots of cold mountainous regions but problem is most are arid. |
Man-made snow!
Recreation in China is still at a very early stage. And it's likely to be shaped by successful marketing of whoever dare to go first. Yes, there's untapped potential. But it's not for everybody.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Good luck, go with your gut instinct and the Chinese angle sounds like it will open a lot more doors and opportunities in the long run, and certainly would not thwart your current ambition either, but I worked my way from resort rep to area manager and now to sales and marketing director - some 20 years later - so I have some appreciation of where you are coming from! The RM job itself can be extremely rewarding and fun and if you do well you will also enjoy the mountains during your season, it can also be very frustrating and bureaucratic but all experience have loads of variables but generally talent is recognized and valued.
A vast majority of current senior management of the big ski TO's (and a lot of non ski) had overseas ie 'coalface' experience including, Matt Prior currently in charge of TUI Specialist Division. It is seen as even more invaluable in ski which is considered specialist/niche. The experience does not, however, have to be in a management position although you'll get noticed faster this way, especially if you are good. But its the operational experience, product knowledge and customer service experience that will count when you take the next step, it does not matter overly at which level of operational seniority you gained them in.
When you take the decision to look for work in a 'head office' you are likely to have to start in a fairly lowly position anyway and it is not uncommon for ex overseas staff to join grad schemes if they have the required academic background, in fact it's actively encouraged, its just that in today's climate grad places in travel are pretty rare, full stop. When applying for the head office job don't limit yourself to the ski sector, if you do decide travel is the way forward you'll be needing plenty of general experience and that comes from other product sectors too. There are other areas of the industry to work in too - not just tour operating - hotels/airlines/travel agency/marketing agencies etc.
What would be helpful if you do take the RM job is to try to identify in which discipline your long term interest really lies and make your superior aware of it so you can get some exposure in the season. For example if you are a commercial beast then you could ask to assist or shadow the contracts manager, if its in staff development then take a keen interest in training, if its marketing then it could be helping with updating web info ( travel e-commerce experience very sought currently). Language skills are immensely useful - the more the better, obviously for ski European languages are most helpful - but in 20 years time Chinese might be more valuable than French!
There is plenty of excellent advice already given and you seem pretty sound so whichever route you take I am sure it'll lead you.
Good luck
PS I like to see operational experience on CV's when I am recruiting, maybe I will see yours one day!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| fatbob wrote: |
| Mike Pow wrote: |
The big market for Chinese skiers at the moment is Japan. |
Surely this will change as the Chinese middle class grows? Just as many Brits got their first skiing kicks in Andorra or Bulgaria what better way for the Chinese to try it out than at their own (cheaper) resorts (assuming of course that domestic resorts do not premium price). From there the "prestige" associated with Western world resorts also becomes a draw so Japan wouldn't necessarily be the limit. After all there are always plenty of Japanese in Whistler.
I don't think it's purely a co-incidence Reno-Tahoe has been hosting the Miss China contest this week http://unofficialnetworks.com/china-decided-tahoe-18-hottest-girls-china-tahoe-week-43380/ |
For now and I would guess the next 2 seasons at least the best opportunity to use Chinese language skills in the ski industry would be in Japan.
The smart money skis in Japan not China. The rich and influential that I've dealt with wouldn't be seen dead skiing in Yubali. Two main reasons:
1. The product is vastly inferior to Japan, Europe and N America
2. It's not high status enough
Plus the costs quoted in the BBC article are exhorbitant:
| Quote: |
In a country with an average urban monthly income of $270, the resort is clearly for the well-off.
Adults here pay upwards of $200 per day each. This includes ski lessons and a lift pass, though daily boot and ski hire add $45 to the bill. |
It's cheaper to ski in Japan.
I think there is more value working for a company like Club Med in Sahoro and then taking that high end established product, service & experience training to China (with Club Med or with a Chinese company).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Mike Pow, how is working in Japan going to teach him any much more than he already knows having (presumably) already experienced European resorts in some depth? I'd imagine he'll already know well enough what a superior product is and the expectations of top end clients. Surely what he most needs to learn is what the Chinese "mass"-market (still rich people) and the current Chinese ski industry are like. These are the sectors that are soon going to explode. Not saying there's absolutely no merit in it - he may well benefit from being an RM in Europe, teaching/working in a Chinese resort and working in Club Med Japan but he probably won't be able to do all three.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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If the OP is content to build a career as a ski instructor and get some good skiing done, Japan might be a very good location. Otherwise I agree with slikedges teaching in Japan isn't going to help the OP gain any advantage on the Chinese ski industry, any more than teaching skiing in Whistler or Lake Tahoe does.
It's up to the OP to decide which he wants, a career as a ski instructor or a career in ski tourism industry.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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research
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If you want to be a marketing director/senior management, surely the best way to do that is to start in the UK in related roles, or retrain specifically for those roles. As far as I can see, working for British TOs in the ski industry is a dead end, little skiing, little money, so what's the point? If you were to be an instructor, you could make more money than RMs/AMs (probably not in China though), ski more, and work less. The problem with instructing of course is that career development only goes so far, and you are at the mercy of injuries/poor seasons etc. If you want to ski, get a job that a allows you to do that, most TO management jobs don't.
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| slikedges wrote: |
| Mike Pow, how is working in Japan going to teach him any much more than he already knows having (presumably) already experienced European resorts in some depth? I'd imagine he'll already know well enough what a superior product is and the expectations of top end clients. Surely what he most needs to learn is what the Chinese "mass"-market (still rich people) and the current Chinese ski industry are like. These are the sectors that are soon going to explode. Not saying there's absolutely no merit in it - he may well benefit from being an RM in Europe, teaching/working in a Chinese resort and working in Club Med Japan but he probably won't be able to do all three. |
Can only speak for Hokkaido, but the movers and shakers in Hong Kong and mainland China come to ski on Hokkaido. Not Yubali, China. That is where the Chinese ski market is at the moment. These are the early adopters that will grow the sport in China IMHO. They will expect and demand (if you've ever worked with Hong Kong Chinese you'll know what I mean) that the domestic Chinese product improve dramatically and quickly.
Working for a multi-national company like Club Med in Sahoro or Hanazono, in the Niseko Resort Area (owned by a Hong Kong company) will expose the OP to the right Chinese guests.
Alternatively work for Club Med in Yubali and after one season try to get a job with the resort.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| jimmer wrote: |
| The problem with instructing of course is that career development only goes so far, and you are at the mercy of injuries/poor seasons etc. If you want to ski, get a job that a allows you to do that, most TO management jobs don't. |
The ski resorts of the Western US are well populated at managerial / management level by former ski & snowboard instructors. And lifties. And food & beverage staff.
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That's true, but the ski resorts of the US (outside maybe Aspen/Vail/Deer Valley) are not somewhere I'd like to build a career, even management there are pretty poorly paid and ill treated.
What I meant by there being little career development is that I feel like I can see a ceiling coming already (started instructing in 07), if I stay where I am (Hirafu and Portillo), sure I will gradually earn more as I build a larger group of clients, but there's little (if any) more to come in the way of pay rises. Obviously there are options, but a lot of instructors get stuck just working for the same school for the same mediocre money.
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FAQ
Very interesting question. What does being an "instructor" in China, mean? A ski instructor? Would you have an opportunity to learn Mandarin? If so (it's very, very, difficult.....) that would be an inestimable advantage in tourism, I'd have thought. Huge expanding market. But maybe you'd need to try to negotiate language lessons as part of a pay and conditions package.
