 Poster: A snowHead
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Pedantica, well worth having a play on some of the goodies that livetoski will be bringing along. We could suggest a little structured programme to test the skis you select.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Fattes13, the poorer your technique the larger the waist hows that work then? 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I don't think the Lord question was entirley without irony.
Under 70 - specialist piste
Up to 85 - piste/hardpack
85-100 - all mountain with a hardish snow bias
100-112 all day softish snow/ off piste 1 ski quiver
120+ modern fat ski
Assumes male of reasonable build. Women and particularly skinny blokes might go thinner
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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livetoski, due to the lack of ability to get any demo`s I have yet to try some WD Im hoping you will be at Glencoe again soon.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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sorry I hoping WD will be there,and you aswell if you can get there. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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fatbob,
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Women and particularly skinny blokes might go thinner
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Mine are 75 and honestly do float very nicely in powder (well, not all the time, but that's not their fault!).
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| fatbob wrote: |
| Assumes male of reasonable build. |
thats buildist reasonablybuiltbob
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| meandrew wrote: |
| What about the DPS wailer.rob@rar, The Wailer 112RP is a true game changer. It is the most versatile ski ever built. It combines the loose and early planing feel of a fully rockered ski with aggressive sidecut and slight camber underfoot. It’s a one ski quiver for planing powder in the morning, laying trenches down to the lift on the groomers, and slaying crud in the afternoon. A 15m radius underfoot and great torsional stiffness allow for maximum versatility, while the rockered and tapered tips and tail allow the Wailer 112RP to get loose and be driven from the ball of the foot in deeper snow. I personally like JJ`s and S7`s find them both easy to ski on in pretty much all conditions JMO. |
Seems to be a drive in the USA for one quiver skis with rocker and some camber, blurb for PMgear Lhasa Pow:
PM Gear’s 191 Lhasa Pow adds a whole new dimension to big mountain skis with a 39 meter radius and stability at speed that, just like it's 186 predecessor, makes every condition on the mountain a piece of cake and every run a slice of heaven. A home run in the progression of big mountain ski design and rockered tips, this ski is also the first true cabon fiber/fiberglass hybrid in the world. With two full layers each of carbon fiber and fiberglass, this American-made ski has 3mm of positive camber and a GS sidecut on a 140-112-120 dimension for insanely enhanced all terrain transcendence.
The Lhasa Pow's carbon/glass layup and unique shape has created a new category for performance skis. The Lhasa’s bullet-nosed rockered tip shape planes powder while slicing ice crust ahead of the ski like an icebreaker. The 191 tip is more than the front end of the ski. It clears the path for the rest of this semi-pintail’s ample shovelprint through crud, crust, cake, deep powder and hardpack. The same dimensions as the 186 and the 196 Lhasa, The performance of the 191 falls between the pintail of the 186 and the semi-traditonal large radius arc these dimensions bring to the longer 196. The 191 makes the semi-pintail shape less noticeable for hardpack, while maintaining the tail-sinking same powder flotation and crud and crust busting ability of all our sizes in our Lhasa Pow selection. It's performance in every condition is that perfect blend of the 140-112-120 dimensions.
The 191 Lhasa will be your everyday go-to ski through the powder months that you'll ski every day of the season because it does everything so well. On big, open slopes, you'll think you're in a TGR movie railing high speed arcs as it carves turns with unimaginable ease, sticks big airs and dispenses a certain amount of slarvability on demand. On groomers and off-piste glop, it easliy carves multi-radius turns in hardpack/crud/slush and will blow your mind so much stabilty at high speed you'll feel like you're skiing in your bedroom slippers. Borne of a creative process that combined elements of design from every specialized quiver shape out there, the Lhasa Pow is the first true carbon/glass hybrid powder specific ski that carves, slarves and rails in every condition the mountain deals.
The Lhasa Pow is the only true carbon fiber/glass hybrid made in America for the 10/11 season. The equal amounts of carbon fiber/ fiberglass layered construction on an aspen/poplar core is lighter, stronger and snappier than any traditional fiberglass ski, giving the 191 all-around improved performance, especially for weight-conscious skinners and climbers who still want some big sticks for the ride down. Whether alpine, AT or tele, The 191 Lhasa Pow is the ultimate iteration of the Lhasa Pow for skiers seeking an easy to ski slayer in a longer length.
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kitenski, do people buy skis on the strength of hyperbolic prose like that? 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Pedantica wrote: |
| kitenski, do people buy skis on the strength of hyperbolic prose like that? |
Dunno, but they get rave reviews on TGR....
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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kitenski, ah, that's another matter.
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kitenski, some right old bbblllluuuuurrrrbbbbb in that lot,they make them sound so good im suprised they dont go as far as promising a orgasm everytime you put them on.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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The guys n girls on TGR luv both the Lhasa Pows and the 112RPs together with a fair amount of love for ON3P, Praxis and Moment. I put some of this down to patriotism and supporting local businesses but I think these boutique companies have done a lot to get ahead of the big boys in a fairly committed skier niche. I've seen a few sHs on Lhasas and they don't look like they are struggling too much though gorilla's first run down an icy Grand Couloir looked like a learning experience.
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Poster: A snowHead
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fatbob, interesting as to wether it's patriotism or good skis or both?? Would be interesting to try some of the TGR folk on,say, the Whitedots.....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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kitenski, to be honest they are like ski porn though some brands are so lusted after,like s7`s and jj`s are cheap hookers compared to PM gear and DPS ladies. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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fatbob, +1 and generally better snow conditions for said type of ski.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
gorilla's first run down an icy Grand Couloir looked like a learning experience.
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They got less of a handful over time and they were a massive handful to begin with. Skiing something with a 35m radius every day for two seasons had some intriguing moments.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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kitenski, someone on TGR is the distributor of White Dot in the US and there have been some positive threads about them - I remember people getting excited when the Ragnok was announced.
Not quite as many threads as those about DPS, PM Gear etc I will grant you. It's worth also remembering that the original PM Gear Bro Model was basically designed on the TGR board with collaboration from numerous maggots. So it's no wonder that there is a certain amount of hype surrounding them (even if the proprietor seems to fall out with people from time to time...)
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Fattes13, your not far wrong I have a really large waist and my technique is really crap so i guess I need to go on a diet. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| ...on various skis starring you & Scott as the fattest? |
There...fixed the spelling mistakes for you!
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| yag_si_HS wrote: |
| rob@rar - did you really find Armada JJs to be worse worse than a slalom ski on piste ? fascinating! |
Yes, but that's not a big surprise, surely. |
So being serious for a moment, this is all to do with the torque the ski generates at the binding/boot/leg. When you're skiing on piste the ski is essentially supported just on the one edge. Slalom skis are about 65mm wide underfoot for a reason, that being about the largest width at which your leg is pushing pretty much through onto the edge of the ski. (There's also a post a few years back where comprex talked about skiing on 45mm wide skis - IIRC he reckoned them to be staggeringly good for grip). So when you are managing the forces the ski generates it comes straight up your leg. As you go wider, aside from the torsional flexing the ski does itself along its length, the force from the edge is pushing further from the mid-line of your leg, and so it's trying harder to flatten the ski as the turn forces build up - and above about 90mm the force vector from the edge would pass completely to the inside of your outside foot - so it's increasingly trying to twist the ski around the axis of your foot. So there's more torque through the binding onto the ski, the boot being held in the binding, and your boot cuff is pushing harder on the side of your leg. None of these is perfectly rigid, so there's more flop between your leg and the ski - and flop results in a reduction in control. So skis much fatter than about 70mm are starting to really reduce performance on a hard piste.
When you're dealing with softer snow the ski rides deeper in the snow, and the snow is supporting more of the ski base - so this twisting torque is far less important and we get more into flotation, flex patterns and how and where the ski is cambered during the turn. My skis are mostly 65mm slalom skis and 97mm Mantras, and I also have some proper GS skis. The Mantras are built essentially as a fat GS ski, but (particularly with the touring bindings I have on them) there is noticeably less precise control on the Mantras than on the GS skis (the fact that they show ample evidence of the rocks, heather, treeroots etc they get inflicted with doesn't help either), and there's always a degree of approximation required on working out how much edge angle they can take.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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GrahamN, About the best articulation of why skinny skis work best on hard snow but the performance advantage lessens as the snow gets softer.
I suspect that having done some snowboarding I wasn't overly freaked out by lack of edge grip when I first came to fattish skis. Stepping straight off a performance piste ski though I'd guess is more of a challenge.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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dont blow me out of the water please but imo people can find a rockered fat ski tricky if they dont stay centered over the ski especially on harder snow conditions as the effective edge is quite short and any back seat steering or to forward a stance can make the ski`s behave in a very flexible uncontrollable way due to softer flex tips and tails.I love the way some ski and some not so much but the cambered rocker ski set up seems to work for me they are just totally different planks than my Tigersharks which are differrent to my rc4`s non of which I now use as I enjoy a more lesiurely pace.
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You know it makes sense.
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kitenski,
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Would be interesting to try some of the TGR folk on,say, the Whitedots.....
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is Nobis now riding for WD because of the Ragnarok?
I don't think we would ever see some of the TGR guys on anything but the skis they helped to design for the Major brands and has their name associated with it, it pains me to say it but $$$$$ sometimes speaks louder than the skis they ski.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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GrahamN, thanks, I think your comments are great, esp the
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As you go wider, aside from the torsional flexing the ski does itself along its length, the force from the edge is pushing further from the mid-line of your leg, and so it's trying harder to flatten the ski as the turn forces build up - and above about 90mm the force vector from the edge would pass completely to the inside of your outside foot - so it's increasingly trying to twist the ski around the axis of your foot. So there's more torque through the binding onto the ski, the boot being held in the binding, and your boot cuff is pushing harder on the side of your leg.
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I found a little time ago that if I am skiing fatter skis all day on harder pistes then my boot tongues get displaced to the side of my boots, this does not happen when I am in softer snow all day. I am pretty sure for the reasons you stated above.
The more modern ski style on fatter skis, increases banked or leaned turns to over come these forces, I am sure Rob will have some ideas on this 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| livetoski wrote: |
| The more modern ski style on fatter skis, increases banked or leaned turns to over come these forces, I am sure Rob will have some ideas on this |
I didn't know there was a modern style for fatter skis. If you are looking to make a tighter turn one way of achieving this is to tip the ski to a more acute angle. For the reason that GrahamN explains, this changes as the ski gets fatter. It's not a significant factor if you're spending most of your time in soft snow. It is more of a factor if you're spending most of your time on firm snow, especially if you're skiing quickly as the resultant forces will not be aligned along a 'stacked' stance.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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That is interesting - and is possibly the reason why I'm re-thinking my boot choice now skiing all the time on big skis (I still have my mantras but they are now set-up to be a semi-touring set-up if get round to putting in the effort).
In Jesse from the Fast Show stylee; this season I'll mostly be skiing on my WD Preachers as they seem to be good for pretty much everything (though see comment below on shapeliness), and for real pow on my WD Redeemers. I did notice that my boots (Garmont Endorphins) often felt a little sloppy/loose when getting going a bit - I know they are not really high performance boots (I couldn't be doing with the pain/time of that again when I bought them!) but that's something that I'd not really noticed much before.
I'm still not sure about the DPS Wailers, I hear all the great things, and they do seem to be trying out some cool technology which is good, but as well as being a bit pricey for the pures, the radius does seem a little on the short side, and if there is one minor thing I don't like so much about the Preachers, it is that they are quite turny, which is good for harder stuff and bumps (which for a big ski they work amazingly well on), but not so much on very steep entrances where you have to be a little more wary of hooking them up and of the tips getting caught up.
I'd really like to see/ski something a bit more stiff and Ragnarok like though with marginally more sidecut. In fact I'd quite like to give the Ragnarok a try out too - Dot. are you heading out this way sometime?
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 13-09-11 22:21; edited 2 times in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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livetoski,
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Pedantica, NOTE to self, make sure i bring lots of pretty skis which are a little fatter than 75 to the I/O day I like
rob@rar, comments about a structured programme for your new skis!!!
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No-o-o-ooooo! 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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stuarth, Escape Route have dps to demo, if you fancy giving them a whirl
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Mentioned above, this is about right:
Under 70 - specialist piste
Up to 85 - piste/hardpack
85-100 - all mountain with a hardish snow bias
100-112 all day softish snow/ off piste 1 ski quiver
120+ modern fat ski
By the way, Lhasa Pows truly are plenty versatile to be skied every day of the season. The only skis I used this past year were 186 Lhasa Pows and Praxis Powderboards. Were there days when a 90-100mm waisted ski would have been nice? Of course, but I certainly would not want something under 90mm for off-piste, and the Lhasas are totally solid in a firm, tight couloir. Don't let the turn radius fool you, since what really matters in that case is weight for jump turns, and the Lhasa is super light.
I would be totally happy skiing the 186 Lhasa w/Dukes every day in the resort or in the BC. Are other skis sometimes better? Yes, but I would guess that the Lhasa and similar 105-113mm waisted skis will beat out any one other ski most days.
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rob@rar,
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I didn't know there was a modern style for fatter skis
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was refering to a much more two footed approach, on fat skis, but this varies as well with the type of fat ski your skiing, for example a center mounted off piste freestyle ski to a rocker in the tip only off piste charger.
The other interesting area of how people ski fat rocker skis off piste is that quite a few people end up sitting to far back on their skis. Rocker skis will let you get away with this, however fat rocker skis are much better in a central and in a forward stance, to enable the skis to be driven hard like an on piste ski. This forward drive approach to off piste sking was something older skis had problems with unless your technique was spot on.
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Gidday all, sorry I've missed this. Just got back from the factory.
stuarth, I'm sure Whitedot will be in BC. We have a Canadian disti so they'll be around for sure
livetoski,re Nobis. Yup and re red topsheet. Don't possibly know what you mean........ Re Glencoe, you're most welcome to join me. I'm helping to organise a freeride comp there called the Coe Cup. It'd be cool if you could make it for that weekend (1st weekend in March).
meandrew, I'll be personally based at Glencoe again.
Note to all. it's about what puts a grin on your face.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Thu 15-09-11 21:03; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Dot., 
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Dot. wrote,
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'm helping to organise a freeride comp there called the Coe Cup. It'd be cool if you could make it for that weekend (1st weekend in March)
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OK its in the diary.
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FAQ
