 Poster: A snowHead
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I'm a competent skiier and mostly ski on-piste as that's where most of my friends seem to be (they vary between 'I don't want to go touring cos I'll get killed in an avalanche' and 'I came here to ski, not climb up mountains') but I'm looking to go on a ski mountaineering course next spring with an eye to doing more similar things in future. Also, because many of my snow-friends are snowboarders, in an attempt to show them that neither myself nor skiing is intrinsically dull I'm off on a little jumps and rails course in a few weeks too.
It seems about time that I invest in some equipment for myself, and I've discovered that there isn't one perfect ski or binding that will handle all situations, but it looks like boots are a bit different. Heavy, stiff touring boots like the Dynafit Titan or BD Factor or whatever seem like they may well do the job for all the above, but they're kinda pricey and I'd like to check if anyone else feels this would be money well spent!
Should I go for one set of freeride/touring boots? Or would I be better off with one set of the usual alpine boots, and one set of lighter and more flexible touring boots? I guess I've not given you much to go on, but any advice would be much appreciated!
On a related note, how much should I expect to pay for a decent boot-fitting session? The interwebs have given me numbers between £15 and £150, which is a bit unhelpful.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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If you can afford it and will have different setups for AT vs. resort skiing, then it makes sense to have two different boots as well.
However, you may find yourself more in a situation like me, where you're using the same skis and bindings inbounds as you are in the BC (Marker Dukes are what's associated with this). In this case, it makes sense to have a stiffer touring boot. I have the Dynafit Titan and love them, and they really aren't that heavy unless you're doing a super long tour. Even then, just think of it as some extra exercise.
In conclusion: Dedicated touring setup = dedicated touring boot. Hybrid setup = hybrid, downhill-oriented touring boot.
As an American, I can't really say how much boot fitting costs in Europe, but if you buy boots at a shop, it shouldn't cost you anything, and if it's a good shop, they'll continue to work on your boots for free (or at minimal cost if materials are needed) in the future if you have any issues.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I have looked long and hard at Marker Baron bindings, and not really made up my mind. That's a question for another day, I think!
What I'd like to avoid is getting a single boot that feels a bit disappointing in all roles, and still manages to cost more than two dedicated pairs of boots would cost. If I can get something that costs less than two two separate pairs and yet still serves pretty well as a downhill boot, that's great. I don't have a good feel for the compromises being made here, and I'd like to get a better idea without having to buy and ski a load of boots first 
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The Titan is definitely a good downhill boot. If you're an expert racer and used to plug boots, you'll certainly notice a difference, but the Titan is basically a 110-120 flex downhill boot. What really matters is the fit.
I'm not quite sure what your ultimate plans are, but if you have 2 pairs of boots (1 DH, 1 AT) and just 1 ski (with Barons), you're going to run into the issue of having to adjust the bindings each time you switch boots. Even if both boots are the same size, the BSL is almost always going to be a little bit different.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hi Serriadh, welcome to snowHeads 
If you're buying boots from the bootfitter, there should be no charge for the fitting other than the extra materials they use, e.g. inner soles or different liners. Thereafter, they continue to tweak and finesse the fitting free of charge.
Commitment and budget are your deciding factors here. If you are absolutely sure that touring will form a large part of your skiing activities and have a fat wallet, then two separate setups are preferable. But if most of your skiing will be downhill, then go for stiff AT boots that will serve both touring and downhill activities.
I'm very happy with my Garmont Xena boots (the male equivalent is the Endorphin). These are pretty stiff AT boots that come with interchangeable alpine and randonee soles. They're stiff enough to drive big skis; I skied both the WDF Preacher and WDF Director with these boots last season - they did not let me down.
If you're buying boots in the UK, do a search here on snowHeads - there have been plenty of threads about recommended bootfitters.
Solutions4feet seem to get the highest recommendations for UK-based fitters. They're in Bicester, so not too much of a schlep from Cambridge. Owner CEM (Colin) is a snowHead, send him a PM for info about his service.
If you are going to be in Chamonix when it's time to buy and fit your boots, head over to Sole Boot Lab, where I get my boots fitted. Owner, SMALLZOOKEEPER (Steve) is also a snowHead, so you can PM him for info.
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Serriadh, I'd recommend you try Black Diamond Factors, great boots. Also I use Marker Dukes, great solid bindings, equally good on and off the piste.
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The main issue you'll have is that touring boots generally come with a rubber sole which isn't going to cut it in normal alpine bindings. Some come with interchangeable sole plates though which is handy, if you fit them!
Having the stiffest boots in the world isn't as important as everyone makes out unless you're skiing at a really high level.
I'd either plump for some alpine boots and get skis with non-tech fitting touring bindings or lighter weight touring boots with tech bindings on the skis. The former will do for the occasional bit of touring and wandering off from the lift system and the latter if you really like the ski mountaineering course.
From the sounds of it the first option is likely to be nearer what you're doing at the moment and if you can hire kit for the ski-mo course then you can test out the latter.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Having the stiffest boots in the world isn't as important as everyone makes out unless you're skiing at a really high level.
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Or if you have flexion issues which 90% of our clients seem to have to a considerable degree. 
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| Quote: |
Having the stiffest boots in the world isn't as important as everyone makes out unless you're skiing at a really high level.
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Or if you have flexion issues which 90% of our clients seem to have to a considerable degree. |
glad it is not just my clients
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| meh wrote: |
| The main issue you'll have is that touring boots generally come with a rubber sole which isn't going to cut it in normal alpine bindings. |
What is the problem that means touring soles will not "cut it in normal alpine bindings"? If there is such an issue then how do binding such as those from Diamir Fritschi avoid the same problem?
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You know it makes sense.
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horizon, wondering what a touring boot would give vs an alpine boot, as the OP says his first dabble into touring is a mountaineering course next spring.
I've only skinned twice for 30-40mins each time, in alpine boots, without any issues.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Adrian, a rubber sole will not release properly from a din binding, touring binding have an extra plate to stop the boot sticking in the binding. http://www.diamir.com/index.php?page=1168
SZK CEM if boots are only designed to suit the flexion of 10% of skiers, why don't they change the design?
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Poster: A snowHead
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jbob, Big clashes of opinion, is the reason, recently been with a boot designer, asked me what modifications or changes i'd make, so I mentioned the flex issue, he smiled and refered to tests with racers wanting to be overly flexed forward to the point that the boot actually didn't move or flex anymore, with this information and a mass study on flexion, he decided the point was defunct, so I guess we're pissing in the wind, it's a simple thing to fix so no great shakes. Shame though.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Serriadh, it sounds like you don't own boots at present. if this is the case, a properly fitted pair of freeride/touring boots will do you nicely. the ones you mention offer a lot of flexibility in the sense that they will work with normal alpine bindings but you can also swap out the soles and use them with any touring binding.
there are a lot of shiney new toys coming out in this segment this year. sadly most UK shops are well behind the times in terms of what they stock (maybe I will be pleasantly surprised this year  ) so don't get your hopes up too much.
maybe get in touch with CEM to see what he will stock or arrange an early season weekend in Chamonix to see what treasures SMALLZOOKEEPER has in his cave
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, seems like an opportunity missed. How about a "feature" where you measure the skiers flexion, then twiddle a few screws to set it on the boot, sounds much more useful than canting. Nice firm progressive flex to the point that your tendon would be damaged then stop. All done with no boot deformation so no variation with temperature. You could end up in the Dragons Den.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Both Atomic and Dalbello have his system.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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A director of a well known climbing gear manufacturer once told me that R and D stood for ripoff and duplicate.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Touring boots on piste? It's the new 'fat ski' fashion - everyone will be doing it soon, and then the manufacturers will find a new 'trend' to start.....
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| Adrian wrote: |
| meh wrote: |
| The main issue you'll have is that touring boots generally come with a rubber sole which isn't going to cut it in normal alpine bindings. |
What is the problem that means touring soles will not "cut it in normal alpine bindings"? If there is such an issue then how do binding such as those from Diamir Fritschi avoid the same problem? |
Those are touring specific bindings. Normal alpine bindings don't work often because you can't adjust them to fit the toe piece of touring boots in and if you can jam them in because the release mechanism isn't designed with the extra friction created by the rubber sole in mind.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| meh wrote: |
| Adrian wrote: |
| meh wrote: |
| The main issue you'll have is that touring boots generally come with a rubber sole which isn't going to cut it in normal alpine bindings. |
What is the problem that means touring soles will not "cut it in normal alpine bindings"? If there is such an issue then how do binding such as those from Diamir Fritschi avoid the same problem? |
Those are touring specific bindings. Normal alpine bindings don't work often because you can't adjust them to fit the toe piece of touring boots in and if you can jam them in because the release mechanism isn't designed with the extra friction created by the rubber sole in mind. |
That was the point of my question. How do the "touring specific bindings" avoid the problem. Visually the toe and heel pieces look to fit the same boot toes and heels as non-touring bindings and have much the same adjustments. Raising or lowering toe piece height is a common feature of bindings so I do not see the reason for saying "if you can jam them in". I was under the impression that Diamir Fritsch and some other bindings were designed to be compatible with normal downhill boots and therefore any boot that fits one sort of binding should fit the other.
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Adrian,
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That was the point of my question
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Fritschi and Duke/Barons/Squire are compatible with Touring and Alpine boots.
Touring boots are NOT compatible with DIN standard alpine bindings. If the binding has an adjustable toe height (Salomon S914 type) - you can fit touring boots in....many people do. What happens in term of any liability ? I dunno.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| kitenski wrote: |
horizon, wondering what a touring boot would give vs an alpine boot, as the OP says his first dabble into touring is a mountaineering course next spring.
I've only skinned twice for 30-40mins each time, in alpine boots, without any issues. |
You're absolutely right, one can definitely start offpiste skiing and skinning in alpine boots (and even trekkers), go on for a while with this setup and later invest in more specialised touring equipment.
The OP seemed ready to spend some money though. If he wants that, I think it's better to spend on one pair of boots that will be good at everything, rather than alpine + touring boots separately.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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meh, That's kinda a myth. While alpine din and touring din are different, the boots will fit, however will put the binding into "Pre-release" this is dangerous as a smaller shock will spit you out, at the top of a 500m 50degree couloir this is an back bottom at best.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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meh and ski, thank you for the explanations and the links. The links to pictures on Wild Snow do not work, but I think I found them with a little patience. (The Wild Snow website tries to prevent direct links to it pictures.)
From what I have read in those links: Alpine and Touring boots have similar looking pieces for connecting to bindings, but they are different and have different DIN numbers. The links did not identify the actual DIN numbers and I have not looked further to find them. The two standards give a flat sole for Alpine boots and [edit] touring boots have[/edit] a slight convexity along the length of the sole, ie from toe to heel. The top face of the toe piece of touring boots is a little higher than for alpine boots. Add in a little more height due to the convexity and touring boots may not fit into an alpine binding toe piece. Another issue is that touring boots (often) have a Vibram sole that is designed to grip and prevent sliding whereas alpine boots have a smooth sole. The alpine boot can thus easily slide sideways when the toe binding opens but the touring sole will not slide sideways so easily.
Several people on the Teton Gravity page linked above claim to have used touring boots with some alpine bindings without problem. The opening post of the page says that in controlled testing with one boot and binding combination, the force required foe a toe release varied so much over several tests that the combination was considered to be unsafe.
Edit: added missing words to improve clarity.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 12-09-11 17:51; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Why try to marry touring boots & Alpine bindings ? Dynafits & rubber soled touring boots are great in resort too.
You can climb slippery restaurant stairs more safely and your skis are generally safer from opportunist thieves as not too many other people will be able to slip their boots into your funny looking bindings. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Adrian - Sorry about the links not working, should have checked!
Your summary sounds about right.
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Just playing devil's advocate here, you fall skiing, you break your knee or pride, in touring or alpine boots, would it have happened vise versa? When are the conditions symmetric? Conclusion, skiing can hurt, don't blame your kit, at best eliminate possibilities, but nature/human endeavor, is the enemy. In many years the only real equipment fail i've seen cause an accident was that 'Quest' Bullshite Salomon tried to pass off a dynafit compatible. If you're touring, you are skiing off piste, accept the responsibilities and accept the possible risks. Boots and bindings are pretty low on this scale, unless non adjustable alpine bindings and full rubber soles are used.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Eep, the thread has suddenly got super busy. It was nice and quite this morning when I was pondering a response. Bit late to reply to everyone's comment individually, so thankyou to everyone who posted useful information!
So, quick summary... I've lurked here for a while and trawled through threads about boots and bindings, and noted down a few business names. I've had a peek at the solutions4feet website, and though lots of plain alpine boots are listed in the products section there are no touring boots... if I go the all-purpose boot route I'd like to go somewhere that stocks at least 2 or 3 models as it seems fit is fairly varied. Chamonix would be lovely, but the usual annual ski holiday is booked at the very last minute so its a bit of a surprise as to where we might end up. Its a long way from Cambridge for a shopping trip!
I'm not in a massive hurry to purchase, anyway. I won't be going anywhere til the new year, and not mountaineering til the spring, but I'd like to start thinking about kit now. I am quite certain there will be more touring in my future; I already enjoy off piste skiing and on-foot mountaineering and combining the two seems like a bit of a no-brainer.
Couple of quick comments on your comments: I've read in numerous places from various people that riding dynafit gear on-piste isn't a great idea, as the bindings aren't going to be quite as safe under the same circumstances as an alpine binding. You're also more likely to break bits of your expensive touring bindings, which I'd rather avoid. AT soles in alpine bindings seems like a no-no, but that also applies to the Marker Baron and Duke. Their own blurb cautions using AT soles in those bindings due to the more more complex issues of releasing smoothly, antifriction plate or no.
So, asking my original question from a slightly different point of view... how important is stiffness in a touring boot? If you're doing a lot of miles or a lot of vertical, I guess you'll be wanting lightweight first, and everything else is just a bonus. But if you're fairly fit and only out for a few days? I could get a dedicated alpine boot and a 'normal' touring boot for the same price as a stiff multipurpose boot. What can't you do in a softer boot?
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Serriadh, we do have dynafit titan in stock and some salomon quest (if you are not wanting a low tech compatible and have a "high volume" foot") they just haven't made it onto the website yet... kind of busy fitting boots right now and the website does get neglected (no excuse)
don't have any more of a range as we simply don't get the through put of people wanting touring kit and basically don't have enough space to store many more models of anything
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Serriadh, a few years ago I had Diamir Fritschi touring bindings and fairly stiff alpine boots. The combination worked fine but the boots were heavy and were getting uncomfortable when walking and skinning. I changed to Garmont Megaride touring boots. Since them I have skied almost exclusively with the Garmonts and touring bindings. The combination works great on and off piste. My touring boots took a few days to get used to, they were much less stiff. On the first black run I did with the touring boots (Face in Val d'Isere) I felt as if the skis were flapping about. But over a few days I learnt to control them and to feel confident with the touring set up.
Having used stiff boots and now softer boots I do not think stiffness is necessary for a competent recreational skier like me. With the touring set up I can ski fairly fast, with control, on piste when I want. I can ski moguls but cannot ski them well - maybe the boots and skis are not compatible with mogul skiing but more likely my skiing ability is not compatible with mogul skiing!
I have read that touring bindings will not release in all the directions that alpine bindings will, suggesting that alpine bindings are somehow safer than touring bindings. If you are willing to accept that slight risk then I would say go for touring boots and touring bindings for all of your skiing. Your feet and legs will enjoy the lighter boots. Your arms and shoulders will enjoy the lighter bindings when you carry the skis. Walking around the resort will be so much easier and safer with proper walking soles and touring boots in walk mode.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER - I think that's fair there are a lot of confounding factors in any accident that make it hard to suggest whether or not it's the responsibility of any piece of kit or combination short of catastrophic failure like the tech inserts on the Quest boots. Same as in the helmet thread with all the anecdotes. All you can say is in a standardised testing environment AT boots don't release as consistently as normal alpine boots from the same alpine binding. After that the choice is up to the individual.
Serriadh - Softer boots nominally make the ski harder to control obviously depending on the ski, your ability and what you're trying to ski. They tend to be lighter though which is nice going uphill. I'm tottling about in Garmont Radiums which are a nice combination of light and stiff. I've also skied Dynafits on piste without exploding and dying.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
All you can say is in a standardised testing environment AT boots don't release as consistently as normal alpine boots from the same alpine binding.
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If the toe height is adjustable like the new Marker Jester or a Salomon S9, no reason why they shouldn't.
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FAQ
