Am finally determined to get serious about off-piste and doing it properly so am seeking some valuable sH opinions.
For at least a couple of seasons, I'll be definitely using a guide and only after that will I maybe consider independent trips and they'll be day trips only. Till now I've been mainly side country off-piste.
1. I've seen guides whose clients don't have all the safety clobber (apart from transceivers) so do I really need to get a shovel and probe and lug that extra weight around (at least initially)?
2. Black Diamond do a lovely line in curved shovel handles (I can't believe I just said that). Is a curved handle less hassle in a pack than a straight one or does it bang on your head/helmet (oooer missus) a lot? I'm only considering metal shovels.
3. Wild Snow is currently running transceiver reviews and the Tracker2 seems best value for money while also being easy to use for a newbie and also very good at its job. It seems three-aerial is the most sensible way to go. Opinions on any other makes welcome.
4. Obviously the best way to deal with avys is not to get caught in the first place. Henry's avalanche talks is offering some attractive gear bundles when bought along with membership of his site. I've had a little avalanche experience including a partial burial but my lack of useful knowledge like prediction (obviously) is truly awesome. What are his courses like (I'm aware you only get out what you put in). If I buy all this stuff, I'm going to have to learn how to use it properly. In the past, when a slope looked dodgy due to some "feeling" I've had, I've just skied away from it - maybe I can continue with this approach or have I missed out on some epic run I would've remembered forever?
5. Some say transceivers/shovels/probes are really only useful for body recovery so am I just experiencing a gear purchasing rush, need to get a grip and should I just be considering buying one of those cheap little plastic Buddha statues and some incense instead?
6. I'm sort of thinking about the avalung/airbag combo (having seen the vids posted on here Wild Snow and TGR of them at work) but am undecided. How much room does an uninflated airbag take up? Does it leave enough room in your pack for other stuff. Then there's the airline hassle.
7. I've always thought all this stuff kinda expensive for something you won't use regularly. It seems like you can end up carrying your own bodyweight in expensive clobber just by listening to too many scare stories. But then of course, when you need it, you really, really need it and the money (£500 or so for an airbag, I think)) will seem like an amazingly good deal as all that white stuff starts pouring over your head.
Thanks in advance for any advice.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Big Paua wrote:
1. I've seen guides whose clients don't have all the safety clobber (apart from transceivers) so do I really need to get a shovel and probe and lug that extra weight around (at least initially)?
Yes I've been in groups where guides do this but they normaly have a few people in the group with shovel and probe too. The guide also generaly aims to only have one person in danger at any one time.
Having said that the more people with shovels & probes along with a transceiver that they know how to use the more likely they will find someone and that someone could be you. If you are planning to ski in a group of 2 to 3 you definately need shovel and probe.
Big Paua wrote:
5. Some say transceivers/shovels/probes are really only useful for body recovery so am I just experiencing a gear purchasing rush, need to get a grip and should I just be considering buying one of those cheap little plastic Buddha statues and some incense instead?)
If you wait for the emergency services to turn up odds are the buried person with be dead, and that person could be you. It's only fair to others in the group that you have the equipment and the knowledge of how to use it.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Big Paua wrote:
Am finally determined to get serious about off-piste and doing it properly so am seeking some valuable sH opinions.
For at least a couple of seasons, I'll be definitely using a guide and only after that will I maybe consider independent trips and they'll be day trips only. Till now I've been mainly side country off-piste.
1. I've seen guides whose clients don't have all the safety clobber (apart from transceivers) so do I really need to get a shovel and probe and lug that extra weight around (at least initially)?
I've seen this too, not sure I agree with it. I think everyone in a group needs to carry a shovel and probe. If you are planning on skiing with guides you don't need to buy this stuff now, guides will have "group kit" to hand out to ensure that there are enough in the group.
Quote:
2. Black Diamond do a lovely line in curved shovel handles (I can't believe I just said that). Is a curved handle less hassle in a pack than a straight one or does it bang on your head/helmet (oooer missus) a lot? I'm only considering metal shovels.
Not used this one, but the idea of the curved handle is that it slides in behind the blade to make it more compact yet easy to assemble. I suspect it is as ergonomic as any other when it's packed. You are correct to only consider metal shovels btw.
Quote:
3. Wild Snow is currently running transceiver reviews and the Tracker2 seems best value for money while also being easy to use for a newbie and also very good at its job. It seems three-aerial is the most sensible way to go. Opinions on any other makes welcome.
Seems to be the gold standard in transceivers these days. I have an original tracker and it seems very good in practices. Every guide I've skied with has handed out trackers to group members, so that's a pretty good recommendation too.
Quote:
4. Obviously the best way to deal with avys is not to get caught in the first place. Henry's avalanche talks is offering some attractive gear bundles when bought along with membership of his site. I've had a little avalanche experience including a partial burial but my lack of useful knowledge like prediction (obviously) is truly awesome. What are his courses like (I'm aware you only get out what you put in). If I buy all this stuff, I'm going to have to learn how to use it properly. In the past, when a slope looked dodgy due to some "feeling" I've had, I've just skied away from it - maybe I can continue with this approach or have I missed out on some epic run I would've remembered forever?
Henry knows his stuff, but you want to get as much training and knowledge as possible - so by all means subscribe to his site, see his talks if yo can, but also learn from guides when you go out with them, and consider multiday courses - e.g. this one at ChamEx seems very good (at least I hope so, I'm booked on it next season). Also consider getting a good book - I like this one by Tremper.
Quote:
5. Some say transceivers/shovels/probes are really only useful for body recovery so am I just experiencing a gear purchasing rush, need to get a grip and should I just be considering buying one of those cheap little plastic Buddha statues and some incense instead?
Really?
Quote:
6. I'm sort of thinking about the avalung/airbag combo (having seen the vids posted on here Wild Snow and TGR of them at work) but am undecided. How much room does an uninflated airbag take up? Does it leave enough room in your pack for other stuff. Then there's the airline hassle.
Yeah, hassle, weight, cost... I'm still weighing this up too. Seems a no brainer when you see the vids though. Not sure I'd get an avalung and an airbag, if I went for it I'd just get the airbag.
Quote:
7. I've always thought all this stuff kinda expensive for something you won't use regularly. It seems like you can end up carrying your own bodyweight in expensive clobber just by listening to too many scare stories. But then of course, when you need it, you really, really need it and the money (£500 or so for an airbag, I think)) will seem like an amazingly good deal as all that white stuff starts pouring over your head.
Same can be said of skis, boots, bikes, whatever else you need to feed your habit. It's a personal choice. You can economise in some areas though, I bought a shovel and probe on eBay for a fraction of the new price and they were both unused - I think a lot of people try touring perhaps and realise that skiing up hill isn't for them and then flog the gear.
I have an airbag too, the weight is more than noticeable - especially on multiday tours.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:
1. I've seen guides whose clients don't have all the safety clobber (apart from transceivers) so do I really need to get a shovel and probe and lug that extra weight around (at least initially)?
IMO you should - you never know...
Quote:
2. Black Diamond do a lovely line in curved shovel handles (I can't believe I just said that). Is a curved handle less hassle in a pack than a straight one or does it bang on your head/helmet (oooer missus) a lot? I'm only considering metal shovels.
I think it's supposed to fit better in a pack. FWIW I've never had any trouble with my straight shovel though.
Quote:
3. Wild Snow is currently running transceiver reviews and the Tracker2 seems best value for money while also being easy to use for a newbie and also very good at its job. It seems three-aerial is the most sensible way to go. Opinions on any other makes welcome.
Popular for sure, I have the original and it's very simple and easy to use. Go to a shop and play with a few, see which you find the most intuitive.
Quote:
4. Obviously the best way to deal with avys is not to get caught in the first place. Henry's avalanche talks is offering some attractive gear bundles when bought along with membership of his site. I've had a little avalanche experience including a partial burial but my lack of useful knowledge like prediction (obviously) is truly awesome. What are his courses like (I'm aware you only get out what you put in). If I buy all this stuff, I'm going to have to learn how to use it properly. In the past, when a slope looked dodgy due to some "feeling" I've had, I've just skied away from it - maybe I can continue with this approach or have I missed out on some epic run I would've remembered forever?
Learn as much as you can, but trust your instincts too. Don't be afraid to walk away from something you don't like the look/feel of.
Quote:
5. Some say transceivers/shovels/probes are really only useful for body recovery so am I just experiencing a gear purchasing rush, need to get a grip and should I just be considering buying one of those cheap little plastic Buddha statues and some incense instead?
I've never heard this - are you sure they are not just talking about the little RECO sticker things? If not, well, they're very very wrong.
Quote:
6. I'm sort of thinking about the avalung/airbag combo (having seen the vids posted on here Wild Snow and TGR of them at work) but am undecided. How much room does an uninflated airbag take up? Does it leave enough room in your pack for other stuff. Then there's the airline hassle.
No hassles with an avalung on a plane - it's basically just a tube with a valve and mouthpiece in the shoulder of your bag. Doesn't cost much more than a normal bag, barely any increase in weight, and the theory (and some reports) makes sense - what's not to like? FWIW after four years of heavy use (not just for skiing) my Avalung bag is still in 'as new' condition, no wear at all.
Airbags are different, but seem to be the way to go if you can afford them...
Quote:
7. I've always thought all this stuff kinda expensive for something you won't use regularly. It seems like you can end up carrying your own bodyweight in expensive clobber just by listening to too many scare stories. But then of course, when you need it, you really, really need it and the money (£500 or so for an airbag, I think)) will seem like an amazingly good deal as all that white stuff starts pouring over your head.
Thanks in advance for any advice.
Assuming you're carrying a backpack anyway, transceiver, shovel and probe (and avalung built into the bag if you wish) really don't add up to that much more weight, and you really should have those three basic items with you at all times offpiste. [/quote]
Big Paua, I went through this buying process last season. Everyone else above has already provided answers about the necessity of the gear.
The curved-handle shovels fit backcountry packs just fine because the handles slide/fold down over the blade. Definitely go as strong as you can afford (metal, not plastic). I ended buying the Ortovox Grizzly shovel and the Ortovox carbon 240 probe.
I have no experience of transceivers other than the one I bought Ortovox (again) 3+ and got a really good deal (and brilliant service!) on all the gear from snowshepherd.co.uk. I found the 3+ transceiver easy to use; quite intuitive actually.
To my mind, the more people in the group with shovels, probes, transceivers, etc. the better the survival rate for any avy victims. I would rather have 5 people digging me out than just 2. Also, if I saw someone in my group with a cheap-ar$e plastic shovel, I would feel a bit miffed because the chances of that shovel breaking while they are digging me out would reduce my chance of survival. But a plastic shovel is better than a pair of hands.
I spent some time in a Cham shop looking at the airbag packs. They are bulky and a tad heavy. But then what's your life worth to you? As I go further afield into the backcountry, I will buy one. There is enough room in the smallest airbag pack for avy gear, an extra layer, skins and crampons. They come in 2 to 3 sizes (depending on which brand you buy) for longer trips/more gear.
Don't forget, if you're skiing across glacial terrain, add a harness at the very least. After much research last season and conversations with two guides, the following would also be good for glacier skiing (I haven't bought any of this yet):
* 2 screwgate karabiners
* 2 8-foot slings
* 2 ice screws
* 2 prussik loops
* 1 snaplink
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sun 28-08-11 11:41; edited 1 time in total
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Zero-G, Thanks for the mention, but I think I will take back your Snowhead discount if you can not spell our name right
If you have not already found our info on transceivers, there is a link in my SH profile below.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sun 28-08-11 11:46; edited 1 time in total
After all it is free
After all it is free
livetoski wrote:
Zero-G, Thanks for the mention, but I think I will take back your Snowhead discount if you can not speel our name right
Ack! I'll go back and correct it. It's not as if I don't know how to spell shepherd
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Zero-G, cheers "speel " just my Sunday morning spelling
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
livetoski,
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Big Paua wrote:
1. I've seen guides whose clients don't have all the safety clobber (apart from transceivers) so do I really need to get a shovel and probe and lug that extra weight around (at least initially)?
Guides have clients and groups of differing abilities. Introductory groups with less experienced clients will visit less challenging places and those clients will have less knowledge of how to use any safety gear. I would expect the guide to ensure at least one of their clients to have a rucksack with shovel and probe. More experienced groups are likely to have their own gear. Additionally, less experienced groups may ski closer to the pistes and so be easily visible whereas more experienced groups go further away and not be seen by you from the pistes.
Big Paua wrote:
3. Wild Snow is currently running transceiver reviews and the Tracker2 seems best value for money while also being easy to use for a newbie and also very good at its job. It seems three-aerial is the most sensible way to go. Opinions on any other makes welcome.
4. ... Henry's avalanche talks is offering some attractive gear bundles when bought along with membership of his site.
Henry also does off piste safety courses. I have not done any of his courses (except for the half day transceiver training) but I have skied off piste with him and highly recommend him.
Big Paua wrote:
4. ... In the past, when a slope looked dodgy due to some "feeling" I've had, I've just skied away from it - maybe I can continue with this approach or have I missed out on some epic run I would've remembered forever?
Trust those feelings. You may have been over cautious but you are safe and can ski another day. Ignoring those feelings puts you and the your skiing companions at risk.
Big Paua wrote:
5. Some say transceivers/shovels/probes are really only useful for body recovery so am I just experiencing a gear purchasing rush, need to get a grip and should I just be considering buying one of those cheap little plastic Buddha statues and some incense instead?
Never heard this about transceivers, shovels and probes. Having them means a rescue can be started very quickly and the statistics for rescuing people alive are good.
On the other hand, I have heard that finding people who only have Recco can be much slower. That is because Recco detectors are bigger and there are not many of them in each ski resort. Recco detection technology may have improved.
Big Paua wrote:
6. I'm sort of thinking about the avalung/airbag combo (having seen the vids posted on here Wild Snow and TGR of them at work) but am undecided. How much room does an uninflated airbag take up? Does it leave enough room in your pack for other stuff. Then there's the airline hassle.
Avalung and airbag are different systems, they can be used together and skiers keep on suggesting that they could be merged into one device. Most people, I believe, recommend that transceiver, shovel and probe be purchased before avalung or airbag.
Big Paua wrote:
7. I've always thought all this stuff kinda expensive for something you won't use regularly.
Transceiver can be worn (and left turned on) all the time when skiing. Shovel and probe are not big or heavy, they can be kept in the skiing rucksack and go with you whenever you ski with the rucksack. Many people like to take water, goggles, spare gloves, spare pullover, etc with them when skiing and so have a rucksack.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
All,
Thanks heaps for the seriously good and reassuring info, the links and clearing up some misconceptions.
Yeah, the "body retrieval" comment surprised me too being contrary to everything I had ever heard - it was added by a poster on Wild Snow. I put it to the sH's test just in case it actually had some currency among deep geek BC fanatics . I think the answer is a clear "no" on that one.
There's a tempting bundle for sale on a certain website but I'm not going to be hurried and I feel I need to fossick about a bit more.
Cheers
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I had Down Days playing in the background this arvo while I was pottering around the flat and it showed Chris Cardello's POV footage from when he was buried in an avalanche in Alaska a few years ago. Because he was there with a film crew, they got to him pretty damned quickly and he had an avalung. If anyone hasn't seen this footage already, it's on youtube.
It always leaves me feeling a little claustrophobic when I watch it:
It ain't the curve of your handle, it's how quickly and accurately you can wield it! Seriously, digging out someone who's properly buried (only done in practice I'm happy to say) is hard work, make sure you're fit and physically able to help.
Learn a bit about forecasting as you mention - plenty of online resources to give you a good start, and also plenty of live forecasts around to give you condition reports - a bit of know-how and common sense and really you shouldn't get caught (though plenty with tons of both have been caught so you do right getting prepared.
Prevention in this case is better than cure, no point in knowing how to save someone or get saved when you shoulda known how not to get caught out in first place - know the signs, know your weather, know the risk category, and go kick about the piste/park/trees if necessary, there'll always be another day if you do!
FWIW I have a tracker 2 and they're v good - make sure you practice though either in a park or with a buddy's beacon or whatever - you'd be surprised how much time you can shave off your location time with practice/knowing the unit etc. I think my probe is an ortovox and couldn't tell you what my shovel is.
An often forgotten but IMO essential bit of kit is a good whistle attached securely somewhere to you.
Have fun, stay safe, look cool
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Zero-G,
Ta - I've seen that before but now is definitely a good time to watch it again. All doubts as to the usefulness of the gear have instantly vanished!
............
4. Obviously the best way to deal with avys is not to get caught in the first place. Henry's avalanche talks is offering some attractive gear bundles when bought along with membership of his site. I've had a little avalanche experience including a partial burial but my lack of useful knowledge like prediction (obviously) is truly awesome. What are his courses like (I'm aware you only get out what you put in). If I buy all this stuff, I'm going to have to learn how to use it properly. In the past, when a slope looked dodgy due to some "feeling" I've had, I've just skied away from it - maybe I can continue with this approach or have I missed out on some epic run I would've remembered forever?
............
Thanks in advance for any advice.
When there is nobody there to dig you out of an avalanche, your best bet is never to ski anywhere that an avalanche can fall on you.
That means knowing where, when, what conditions, are likely to cause an avalanche. If there is limited accumulation of snow, an avalanche is unlikely. If the snow has fallen recently (last day or two), this is the most likely time for an avalanche. In windy or stormy weather, an avalanche is more likely.
If you check the area above where you are about to ski, can you see anywhere that might have snow which can break off from the rest. Can you test the slabiness of the snow before you ski down a slope?
Do you have a plan of action if an avalanche were to kick off while you are skiing? For example, have you examined the area and would you ski across the fall line to escape, or down the fall line?
The steepness of the slope is an indication of how possible an avalanche is. Green pisted slopes rarely produce avalanches from the slopes themselves.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I'm actually booked on the HAT weekend course that Adrian mentioned above. Any other snowHeads going?
livetoski, while you're here on this thread, do the Snowpulse packs come in different back lengths (no info on their site about different sizes, only different volume).
So rumaging around in all this delightful info and having watched Zero-G's burial vid again. I'm getting curious about the avalung. I see you can get one in harness only (without the pack) . Having just bought a new pack last season, I don't want to buy an avalung pack as well.
Has anyone used the avalung in harness only? It seems it has to be worn outside the jacket to allow the oxygen CO2 transfer to work efficiently (?). This sounds fairly cumbersome while also wearing a non-avalung pack over top of that? Anyone any experience of that? With a transceiver harness underneath the clothing as well, it's going to feel like the Alpine Bondage Club's newbies' big day out.
On the Beacon Reviews site, some posters are saying they have modified their existing packs to accommodate the avalung. However, another poster there, who seems to have some sort of connection with Black Diamond, says this isn't a good idea as this can hinder the avalung operation. Opinions/experiences welcome.
Zero-G, very tempted re the HAT weekend course. Sounds like a good thing to do. Need to think about it some more. As usual, I've started out intending to spend £2.75 (when did that ever work in Skiville?) and am now working out how to sell the firstborn without anyone noticing.
livetoski, will be in touch sometime soon. I couldn't see an avalungs on your site. Did I miss something?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
You can buy all the kit you like as you said. You will still rely on another person to dig you out. Best not to get caught in an avalanche at all!
On the Beacon Reviews site, some posters are saying they have modified their existing packs to accommodate the avalung. However, another poster there, who seems to have some sort of connection with Black Diamond, says this isn't a good idea as this can hinder the avalung operation. Opinions/experiences welcome.
I would assume (possibly dangerously so) that as long as the intake and outflow valves are not blocked or covered in any way, you should be fine. But then again, trusting your life to something that is jury rigged... hmm...
Sell your new pack - there are always buyers out there for good gear. Then you could hang on to the first born until such time as you need new skis
Big Paua wrote:
Zero-G, very tempted re the HAT weekend course. Sounds like a good thing to do.
I'm treating the course as a theory exercise, so that when I get back to the mountains, any avy saftey/crevasse rescue training I do can focus on the practical side of things when I can actually see/touch/taste the snowpack.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Bigtipper wrote:
You can buy all the kit you like as you said. You will still rely on another person to dig you out. Best not to get caught in an avalanche at all!
While not getting caught in an avalanche is the goal, if you're going to ski the backcountry, the risk is there. So you learn skills and buy kit to increase your chances of survival if it does happen. It's not clear why this approach merits an eye roll.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Course wise I'd put a word in for Mountain Tracks, they run a basic and a more advanced multi-day course.
Regarding books, the Tremper one (staying alive in avalanche terrain) is really good on the snow science side of things. It is less strong on the decision making aspect, which for me is key. While I can dig a pit and do a profile, I will in practice never do this. If you find yourself getting the shovel out and having a rummage then you have probably ballsed up earlier in your decision making process. Therefore, in addition to the Tremper, I would recommend this one:
which has a translation of the Werner Munter 3x3 and reduction methods. I would also recommend Jimmy Oden's book Freeskiing, which covers virtually everything you need to know about skiing off piste.
Gear-wise, I'd take a course and use a range of transceivers. I'd buy after demoing a few.
I also bought an airbag the eason before last. There are no real downsides to the airbag for day touring and skiing from lifts, although the weight for hut touring is, for me, prohibitive. It cost me £600 and I value my life at considerably more than that.
Regarding bailing on things: if something feels wrong then don't ski it. I think it is hard to be overcautious. It pays to remember that the gear is crisis management equipment and that if you have to use it, there is a good chance you will be dealing with a fatality.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Big Paua wrote:
1. I've seen guides whose clients don't have all the safety clobber (apart from transceivers) so do I really need to get a shovel and probe and lug that extra weight around (at least initially)?
...err, and you expect other people to "lug" a shovel and probe to find you and dig you out?
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Zero-G wrote:
Don't forget, if you're skiing across glacial terrain, add a harness at the very least. After much research last season and conversations with two guides, the following would also be good for glacier skiing (I haven't bought any of this yet):
* 2 screwgate karabiners
* 2 8-foot slings
* 2 ice screws
* 2 prussik loops
* 1 snaplink
An acquaintance in CHX had this stuff when their ski buddy fell down a cravase. They bought a rope shortly afterwards
Airbags - I like what it says in "Staying Alive In Avalanche Terrain" (already mentioned above).
Quote:
Judging from the statistical success of avalanche air bags over the past few years, it appears that avalanche air bags are the most promising technology to come along in the past 60 years---perhaps since explosives were introduced to control avalanches. As I mentioned earlier, avalanche beacons do not work well among recreational users because users almost never practice enough, beacons decrease mortality only about 10 percent among recreational users, while they decrease mortality 70 percent among pros. The avalanche air bag, however has been used primarily in Europe for the past few years and as of 2007, 168 persons with avalanche air bags have been caught and only two have died --- both because they initially ended up on the surface but were subsequently buried by a secondary avalanche. Of the 168 people with air bags caught, 151 people had successfully inflated their air bags, ten did not pull the ripcord, one did not carry the handle, two had empty cartridges and four experienced technical failures (most of these technical failures occurred with the early versions).
Among people caught, normally about 10 percent die, even with beacons. with avalanche air bags, only 1.5 percent have died. This is nearly a tenfold reduction in mortality (Figure 9-15). Since beacons only slightly decrease mortality among recreational users, it's fair to say that avalanche air bags are the best technology to come along in the history of people's interaction with avalanches. In fact, they arguably work better than avalanche forecasts, education, or research, which is a humbling admission for someone like me who has spent a lifetime providing exactly that. Yes, the avalanche air bag is clearly here to stay, but no, it will not solve all of our problems
Nearly all of these statistics come from Europe, where, unlike recreation in the U.S. and Canada, most recreation occurs on smooth, cultivated land above tree line. In Europe, only 6 percent of avalanche victims die from trauma. In the U.S., 25 percent of victims die from trauma and in Canada it is around 50 percent because more people recreate in and above trees. Air bags will not prevent most of these trauma deaths, but among those not killed by trauma, an incredible 98 percent of the victims will likely live. [and so it goes on...]
But I still haven't bought one .
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
.Ro wrote:
Zero-G wrote:
Don't forget, if you're skiing across glacial terrain, add a harness at the very least. After much research last season and conversations with two guides, the following would also be good for glacier skiing (I haven't bought any of this yet):
* 2 screwgate karabiners
* 2 8-foot slings
* 2 ice screws
* 2 prussik loops
* 1 snaplink
An acquaintance in CHX had this stuff when their ski buddy fell down a cravase. They bought a rope shortly afterwards
That would help.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:
Nearly all of these statistics come from Europe, where, unlike recreation in the U.S. and Canada, most recreation occurs on smooth, cultivated land above tree line. In Europe, only 6 percent of avalanche victims die from trauma. In the U.S., 25 percent of victims die from trauma and in Canada it is around 50 percent because more people recreate in and above trees. Air bags will not prevent most of these trauma deaths, but among those not killed by trauma, an incredible 98 percent of the victims will likely live. [and so it goes on...]
Am I understanding this correctly - it's more dangerous to ski in and above trees?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
gorilla,
Interesting comment re pit digging and what happens in practice - we're all human. I've often thought that only ski patrollers responsible for keeping resort areas open do this on a regular and disciplined basis.
Tremper's comments on airbags are VERY interesting!
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
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Interesting comment re pit digging and what happens in practice - we're all human. I've often thought that only ski patrollers responsible for keeping resort areas open do this on a regular and disciplined basis.
Davidof gives a worked example of the use of the reduction method here.
IMV pit digging is a useful tool for professionals who have the time and the skill to build up a detailed knowledge of the snowpack by digging them in many different places. Most of us aren't in the business of doing this, we want to know whether or not a slope is safe to ski. Digging a pit on on near a suspect slope is probably not going to tell you that, indeed there is an obvious problem with that approach.
Now there are a few exceptions to this. I backed out of the Dena couloir in Verbier a while back after digging into the flat area above the entry and finding a facet farm about 50cm down. This confirmed a suspicion I had and made the decision to turn around very easy. But in general, I've got a pretty good idea of what I'm going to do before I leave the flat.
Intrigued by Tremper's airbag comments, especially as he has been so critical of transceivers.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Big Paua, if an avalanche takes a person into trees then that person may be smashed against one or more trees; similarly against rocks etc. Avalanches may be less likely within trees but that does not stop an avalanche that starts in an area without trees from flowing into trees. An avalanche that takes a person into a tree-less and rock-less area with a smooth run-out is still bad news but the person is less likely to be smashed against hard and fixed objects.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Zero-G, The Snowpulse airbags come in medium and large sizes but the back length is the same it just the length of the straps which are about 4 inchs longer on the larger size
Big Paua, thanks give me a shout anytime. Re the avilungs then I do not do them, to be honest I have never used one and we try to only sell what we use or can test for a significant length of time. I have always thought that the idea of skiing with the mouth piece "in" when in avi danger area is a little strange
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
DB wrote:
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Nearly all of these statistics come from Europe, where, unlike recreation in the U.S. and Canada, most recreation occurs on smooth, cultivated land above tree line. In Europe, only 6 percent of avalanche victims die from trauma. In the U.S., 25 percent of victims die from trauma and in Canada it is around 50 percent because more people recreate in and above trees. Air bags will not prevent most of these trauma deaths, but among those not killed by trauma, an incredible 98 percent of the victims will likely live. [and so it goes on...]
Am I understanding this correctly - it's more dangerous to ski in and above trees?
There's (more) to go wrong if you're in an avalanche that goes into trees than one that doesn't - as well as the normal dangers, the risk of smashing into lots of hard things obviously increases.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
.Ro,
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Airbags - I like what it says in "Staying Alive In Avalanche Terrain" (already mentioned above).
I think but am not sure that the article you quoted was written very much about ABS bags only, the newer Snowpulse and this season in Europe BCA Float offer more impact protection than the ABS bags.
The stats on injury will always differ by country as the tree line is different in these countries
There's (more) to go wrong if you're in an avalanche that goes into trees than one that doesn't - as well as the normal dangers, the risk of smashing into lots of hard things obviously increases.
Yes I suspect there is less chance of an avalanche occurring in the trees but if you get caught in an avalanche within a wooded area then the chance of trauma through hitting trees is much greater. Worse case is probably an avalanche above the trees that then builds up momentum before tearing through the wood lands and using you as a bowling ball.
Am I understanding this correctly - it's more dangerous to ski in and above trees?
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Your understanding it incorrectly. In the European alps the vast majority of fatal avalanches occur above the tree line. Trees just add to the fun .
Still if you can ski it, it can avalanche (photo taken in the Chartreuse range at 1100m altitude).
Generally the worst points are skiing out of trees where you get facet growth and stress in the snow pack.
Here is a good one, skier triggered just below a tree stand which had created a weakness in the snow pack, the avalanche snapped a 15cm trunk lower down
it is few meters from a route used by skiers and snowshoers and considered "safe" - no-one locally had ever seen an avalanche on this route until I took this photograph. The slope is around 25 degrees.
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Some say transceivers/shovels/probes are really only useful for body recovery
There are lots of live rescues using transceivers but remember that if you are buried by a slide your beacon probably only gives you a 50% chance of being rescued alive (trauma, delay in rescue). The lesson is to get the simplest, most reliable beacon unless you are prepared to train. This is probably why guided groups go for the Tracker 2. It is not the best beacon but is probably the easiest for inexperienced users to handle.
If I could only take a single piece of kit off piste (like Desert Island Discs) I would take an airbag but remember 5 deaths in 2010 in the French Alps were airbag wearers.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
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