Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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beanie1, The Snowsport England website is at .org.uk not .co.uk.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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beanie1 wrote: |
http://www.basi.org.uk/article/basi-re-launch-snowlife-awards.aspx
Any thoughts or comments from instructors? |
Only instructors allowed to comment?
Seems like a waste of time and effort for most adults. Who cares apart from badge collectors unless BASI is hoping to cash in on on some bizarre chalet bragging status thing? May also have the effect of backfiring on BASI brand as the guy in the chalet you agree to go skiing with on the basis he is "Black Zone certified" turns out to be an incompetent boob?
Maybe of some merit for kids as they seem to like the sense of achievement (& foreign ski schools seem to be set up around progression awards). And a bit of a worrying statement at the end about this potentially being a pathway into coaching/instruction. Another opportunity for BASI to add process? You must get signed off as a Red zone skier before you can start a L1 programme?
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fatbob wrote: |
the guy in the chalet you agree to go skiing with on the basis he is "Black Zone certified" |
i think i would avoid skiing with someone like that as a matter of principle
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I like the idea since, although I'm not a kid (or a badge collector) I do like having a sense of achievement and progression and find regular goals quite motivating. At the moment, as I understand it, there's no kind of formal goal setting/achieving process without a lot of instructor-specific content and, since I have no desire to instruct, what's available now is of no interest to me. As I've posted several times before, I'd like to progress through skiing grades in the same sort of way that I progressed through piano grades. (But hopefully not so as to give the whole thing up at the end, through being dissatisfied with the ultimate result. ) I didn't brag about my piano grades and don't suppose I'd indulge in any " bizarre chalet bragging status thing" with skiing. Also, when progressing through piano grades, you can generally put, say, a C Major scale behind you after a while, and concentrate on mastering more difficult technical exercises: similarly with skiing, you (I) wouldn't want to have to keep working on my basic snowplough, which presumably I wouldn't have to do if I didn't have to teach snot-nosed kids how to do it.
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For the avoidance of doubt I'm more often than not the incompetent boob myself when skiing with new people.
Pedantica, I think the thing with skiing levels is that they are always artificial to some extent and while some are very driven to progress the vast majority of the UK customer base is happy to toddle along measuring their achievement by "I've been skiing 10 years and can get down a black" type stuff. If so their objective improvements year on year are probably marginal and to be honest they don't ski often enough or indeed enough to progress dramatically beyond a certain level (that's not to say that level is fixed or indeed doesn't allow for lots of progress in getting there). I'd guess BASI's agenda here is to hook people into instruction for longer so they don't become a lost revenue stream after 2 weeks of lessons as well as some laudable stuff about improving standards of skiing/safety etc etc.
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fatbob, don't you think there could, at least additionally, be an innocent agenda - just to help people to get better at the sport, if that's what they want to do? (Again, just like learning a musical instrument, a language, or whatever and taking exams intermittently along the way.) 'Levels' tend to be a bit arbitrary in most things one learns, but it's helpful to have some sort of framework within which to work. The vast majority of the UK customer base may be the way they are simply because there is no such structured learning available. I don't know. Just thinking aloud really.
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fatbob, this wasnt a basi initiative, I seem to recall it was developed as an SSx thing from years ago that died on the vine. it was the home nations who relaunched it when they got some cash recently. BASI is involved as they are trying to build bridges with the SSx's . Level systems are useful if you are keen to take lessons so both you and the lesson provider can pre harmonize groups.. that is about the only reason i could think they are good and lots of kids and adults like a pathway of some description. I can see why basi would like it as the ESF's of the world have very clear progressions through various "levels"
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Pedantica Could be innocent of course. Different people are motivated by different things. I agree that some individuals tend to be goal driven in whatever they do but I doubt that not having a formal framework is a significant driver of lesson tail-off in UK adults, it'll be more likely things such as cost, desire to ski with friends etc. I think there's a positive in giving instructors a tool to enable them to educate students as to how much more there is to learn but good instructors should be doing that anyway.
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fatbob, we regularily get contacted by frustrated adults who have gone through the X levels at Hemel Ski School and then wonder whats next.. not such a bad idea to have a more independent level system that highlights that there is more to learn and that there are opportunities to take sessions of levels appropriate to the individual..
OUr level system for instance is a hogpodge of the the Hemel Ski school beginner/ intermediate , the old snowlife awards and then trys to highlight the BASI levels as well. works for what we need but a more standardised british level would be good...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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skimottaret, Don't disagree with any of that logic and your levels are as sensible as anything I've seen. Hemel levels are very bottom end loaded (with good reason) so I can see why you get the question. It's important in the outside world to try to get some harmony in group ability levels, though I doubt any ski school worth their salt will take proclaimed Snowlife level as gospel without the validation of a ski-off. I guess they'd be better marketing them as such rather than majoring on certificates and badges which is all a bit U-11 swimming for my taste.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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There is a broader element to this in that Britain actually needs a sensible proficiency pathway from grassroots skiing through to more specialist areas whether that be freestyle, ski racing or coaching etc... The new awards actually aim to offer logical and solid steps to recreational skiers upon which to map out their skiing progress. A pathway such as this is important to our skiing public and helps link grassroots to bigger and better things. This may not to be to everyones taste and of course, it can be taken or left but it is important that Britain does 'map out' and provide a map of competence from beginner onwards..
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You know it makes sense.
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freeski,
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a sensible proficiency pathway from grassroots skiing through to more specialist areas whether that be freestyle, ski racing or coaching etc... The new awards actually aim to offer logical and solid steps to recreational skiers upon which to map out their skiing progress. A pathway such as this is important to our skiing public and helps link grassroots to bigger and better things.
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Joking aside, this is what I was getting at. The same sentiment applies to all sorts of skills, not just skiing although, as you say, not everyone would necessarily wish to follow such a structured route if it's a mere 'hobby' that is in question.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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freeski, with respect do you think that Britain actually "needs" a proficiency pathway to bigger and better things or is it something that sounds good to those involved with competitive snowsports/Sports GB type quangos? How much of a proficiency pathway did Jenny Jones complete before getting gold in the X Games?
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Poster: A snowHead
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In one way it seems perfectly logical. Like Pedantica says, adults have music lessons and take exams. They also have gradings in dance and ice skating. However, most people, I guess, who have skiing lessons, want to be a good enough/better skier to have more fun on holiday. I would say that Pedantica is one of a small minority of people who go regularly to snowdomes to have lessons and I can see why she would be in favour of it. Me, I only practised my ice skating drills because I had gradings coming up. If I hadn't, I would have just tear-arsed around the rink with the other hooligans!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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maggi,
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Me, I only practised my ice skating drills because I had gradings coming up.
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Exactly. Some people do find that grades help to motivate them to practise, they certainly helped me to keep my nose to the grindstone with piano practice. And that seemed to me to be a good thing, even though I was only playing recreationally, without any intention of becoming a professional musician. I don't really see why it should be any different for skiing - the only difference is that it is something to which skiers and would-be skiers are presently not accustomed, whereas such a system is common currency for many other disciplines.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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andyph, i've noticed a few SHs based in HK lately!
We should have an HK SHs meet up, that would be a first!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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beanie1, I do seem to get asked ,quite often, through the season to take various kids (normally around 14, 15,16 yrs) on a one hour private lesson to assess them for their school assignment in PE or some other course that they need a sporting level to be reached to pass the module. The kids (and the parents) take this “very” seriously. I tend to get asked quite a lot as I'm the only BASI type round here, not sure why (oh oh thread drift )
On the form it invariably says something like “to be signed by a member of” .... and then a long list of national ski instructors associations, with BASI always at the top of the list ( not often you see that) . On some forms there are different levels of instructors needed to sign off different levels of ability.
One of the normal criteria is that they have reached a certain ski proficiency level – these seem to be based around the old British Alpine Ski Award levels from way back. Sometimes there are different criteria, as well as skiing ability, depending on the course they require the module for. eg. This year 2 of the kids, as well a ski tech ability, needed to be able to navigate with a piste map, point out various geographical features, identify slope dangers, etc.
Maybe the BASI badges could be used as a “standard”. Someone from BASI would have to sell it to the numerous examination boards, but I think it would help to have a standardised structure, rather than each board having its own (sometime rather strange) criteria for gaining the module(s).
I think the badges will do well if they can be seen (may take a while) as a national standardised broad based assessment of on skiing ability.
One more point, and apologies to all the other numerous (way too many for a non alpine nation) “governing” bodies for skiing – I have lost count of em, a BASI badge does have a certain kudos for the kids and, to put it bluntly, it’s a BASI badge they want not one of the zillions of others that get awarded, mind you, the parents don't seems to care as long as they get the pass. Everyone will understand why the other bodies involved in the badge scheme will be concerned that their participation in the scheme is recognised, but it's the BASI name being associated with the award that people look for.
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Excellent, keep it coming! Good to have some discussion, v quiet round here at the moment.
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andyph wrote: |
One enhancement that would be nice to see in the new scheme would be if it offered development "channels" for different disciplines, eg racing, freestyle, teaching. |
What extra would you like to see ? I thought there was something about skiing a race course in the higher levels already, I can't remember if there was an equivalent freestyle task.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I think something like that would be useful as a motivational tool, and to highlight bits of technique that (a) exist and (b) might be useful some time. I'm at the can get down reds and some blacks stage of skiing, but there is so much to learn and having a "list" of thing might help with motivating me to practice specific things while skiing around.
For any sport which isn't directly competitive (i.e. racquet sports) having a means of objectively measuring progress is really helpful. Never needed it with fencing as the rankings were objective enough for me and being competitive by nature, I preferred winning. Skiing is very easy to coast at, racing really doesn't interest me (scary) but learning skills in a structured way really appeals.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Looks like a gimmick to encourage punters to stay with BASI instructors.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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achilles, certainly an element of that but the kids absolutely love to get their ESF or ESI badges and are always keen to progress through the levels at each resort they visiti, why not try to encourage "buy british" when on holiday?
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rjs wrote: |
andyph wrote: |
One enhancement that would be nice to see in the new scheme would be if it offered development "channels" for different disciplines, eg racing, freestyle, teaching. |
What extra would you like to see ? I thought there was something about skiing a race course in the higher levels already, I can't remember if there was an equivalent freestyle task. |
Struggling to remember the different elements (and even if the kids still have their Snowlife award books at home, I'm not) but I seem to remember that they had to tick off x out of y achievements to get a grade. So you could either ski gates against the clock or pull an olly or land off a kicker... etc. Many a kid who wants to race gates won't give a monkeys about tricks - why not encourage them in what they do want to do rather than worry about being jacks of all trades. Maybe we'll find a natural in SX or the park...
achilles wrote: |
Looks like a gimmick to encourage punters to stay with BASI instructors. |
Maybe a little, but ESF grade their classes by etoiles - at least BASI kids get something to take home.
beanie1 wrote: |
andyph, i've noticed a few SHs based in HK lately! |
Not based, just visiting and sadly now moved on.
beanie1 wrote: |
We should have an HK SHs meet up, that would be a first! |
Er, oops... happened to bump into Iski on Wednesday last week... Next time definitely, promise.
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You know it makes sense.
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As someone who started skiing at the age of 4, in france, with BASI instructors, and at the Age of 16 is about to do the BASI Level 1 instructors course, I went through the SnowLife award system and found it great. ESF, the Swiss Skischule, and (apologies, i don't know the name) ski schools in Austria, all use some form of Badge/booklet award system for younger skiers, and it was fantastic to have a British equivelent. As you progress skiing, especially when younger, its a nice feeling to have a) a record of your progression/achievments and b) goals to aim for next time you go. I went through the system, (before they had penguin and polar bear badges for infants) from 1 to 9, and found it a useful tool when, either trying to work out a group in another ski school other than a BASI one, or to let myself know how able I was to ski a certain piste/apply for a certain activity, e.g. having achieved my 9 star i feel confident that I will be able to step up to the standard required for the Level 1 course...
I suppose what im trying to get at is really two main points:
1) As a younger skier (probably less relevent for those above 20 would say), it is a fantastic track of achievement/goal setting asset, that many skischools other than BASI one across Europe already have in place.
And
2) As someone possibly interested in the idea of making skiing a profession, it gets you into the system of progression, training, and (hopefully) achievment that's needed to do professional qualifications in the snowsports industry.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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andyph, I think the idea of the 'jack of all trades' approach to the award system was that it gives the oppertunity to try all the different aspects of skiing, and (again) looking at the instructing route, ensures proffeciency over a number of areas, rather than just one or two... If the system gives someone the chance to see which bit of skiing they like best, then to specialise, then thats all good, isnt it?
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Poster: A snowHead
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skimottaret wrote: |
why not try to encourage "buy british" when on holiday? |
Not sure about France, Austria, etc, but here the ski schools sell the badges, or they are included
within the cost of the lesson(s), so there may be a little bit of a problem as it could be seen to be taking away a source of income ffrom the schools.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Wayne wrote: |
skimottaret wrote: |
why not try to encourage "buy british" when on holiday? |
Not sure about France, Austria, etc, but here the ski schools sell the badges, or they are included
within the cost of the lesson(s), so there may be a little bit of a problem as it could be seen to be taking away a source of income ffrom the schools. |
For British kids there are lots of reasons why British instructors might be best for them, or at least enthusiastic non Brits with good spoken English and a non-dicriminatory style. I can hardly think of anything less motivating than being the couple of Brit kids tagged on the back of an all French lesson for example. However with the best will in the world how many BASI instructors are actually out in Europe teaching in peak weeks compared to demand?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Wayne, my understanding is that BASI will be designing and making the badges along with the supporting documents and then selling them to ski schools so they can distribute to clients however they see fit.
As the ESF and ESI have them for their schools seems to make a lot of sense to have a BASI equivalent so when kids go from resort to resort they are buying into the basi system and "levels". My daughter went through the ESF system and i thought it excellent, the training was very consistent between instructors and schools and the badges were awarded at the right time and not always granted, unlike some schools who always hand out the next higher badge at the end of the week to keep the parents happy...
fatbob, I think it is less to do with individual instructors but rather promoting BASI owned ski schools such as new gen, supreme etc
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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fredtb,
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As a younger skier (probably less relevent for those above 20 would say), it is a fantastic track of achievement/goal setting asset, that many skischools other than BASI one across Europe already have in place.
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I like this idea of goal setting/achievement marking too, and can't even bring myself to tell you how much older than 20 I am!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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fredtb wrote: |
andyph, I think the idea of the 'jack of all trades' approach to the award system was that it gives the oppertunity to try all the different aspects of skiing, and (again) looking at the instructing route, ensures proffeciency over a number of areas, rather than just one or two... If the system gives someone the chance to see which bit of skiing they like best, then to specialise, then thats all good, isnt it? |
Quite so, I was merely suggesting that having established a base level of proficency it might be nice to offer more specialised training (at the bronze level and above, for instance).
Pedantica, modest as ever.
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andyph, Ah i see your point, and entirely agree. Once people find their niche, i think its more likely they'll stixk with it
Pedantica, Apologies, i was only trying to say who i thought BASI had aimed the system at. I would never wish to discriminate against anyone of any age wanting to get involved
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andyph wrote: |
rjs wrote: |
andyph wrote: |
One enhancement that would be nice to see in the new scheme would be if it offered development "channels" for different disciplines, eg racing, freestyle, teaching. |
What extra would you like to see ? I thought there was something about skiing a race course in the higher levels already, I can't remember if there was an equivalent freestyle task. |
Struggling to remember the different elements (and even if the kids still have their Snowlife award books at home, I'm not) but I seem to remember that they had to tick off x out of y achievements to get a grade. So you could either ski gates against the clock or pull an olly or land off a kicker... etc. Many a kid who wants to race gates won't give a monkeys about tricks - why not encourage them in what they do want to do rather than worry about being jacks of all trades. Maybe we'll find a natural in SX or the park... |
My thought was that there are already defined pathways for kids who are keen on racing or freestyle and that the Snowlife stuff should just be seen as providing a taster.
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fredtb, no need at! all to apologize!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Personally I think the older SnowLife booklets were better - new ones are too wordy and kids (and adults) just like check boxes you can tick off - perhaps more like the ones we have at hh where it is 'working on' or 'achieved' type tick boxes. So older booklet was better I think... but that's just my opinion. I definitely know that French Ski Schools and kids thrive on using the booklets and kids certainly love em... sometimes they are just too subjective these things and sometimes they are too objective... you can never win.
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Thanks for the feedback all.
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