Sadly you only have to look as far as MotoGP and Indycar over the last couple of weekends.
It's bad enough that random chance can result in Death & life changing injury so I don't begrudge the FIS for their efforts to try and manage safety for participants.
Don't forget, this type of racing is an artificial construct with strict rules in a controlled environment. The game is fastest to the bottom - there are no judges at the bottom giving style points.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
That's the thing though...too many Organisations don't listen to their competitors and think they know best.
Take the Indycar accident for example... All the Drivers and past drivers said that race should have never happened. It was an accident waiting to happen and it did. They raised the winning amount, increased the field and drivers took extra risks.
As for Skiing... I think as in any sport it's the repetitive nature on muscles and joints during training rather than the races themselves that cause the long term injuries. Any continued pressure on joints over a long period of time will have a damaging effect. Often it won't get noticed until later in life. Ask any footballer or Rugby players or Gymnast how their knees and backs are. It's all degenatarive. Even Golfers, which is seen as a gentle sport, suffer from terrible knee and back problems, because you are asking your body to perform under pressure continuesly over a long period of time. Repetitive strain injury in many ways.
Hardly any Parent stops their son or daughter from becoming a Rugby forward. Yet they know they will be training in a Scrum, pushing massive weights, enduring massive amounts of weight and compression to their back, neck and knees...yet unless Rugby gets rid of Scrums, the chances of long term injury will always be there.
As i said in a previous post, imho, it's the courses and gate setting that needs to be improved.
As far as i'm concerned the FIS need to listen more to feedback from the actual racers themselves. After all, it's them putting themselves through the mill everyday, and they know the dangers.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Some really interesting points from the pre Soelden meeting. Seems the Champions of today are thinking of the Champions of the future. And the ladies are not happy either.
Apparantly a member of the FIS commitee was also quoted as saying this...
Quote:
FIS officials have been indicating that shaped skis are inherently dangerous as they allow the skiing public to ski faster and to go further into "off-piste" areas.
(from the article, Head Boss Slams FIS Ski Change)
Someone else agreed to my thoughts, that the FIS are becoming like the FA...A bunch of old farts who don't like change
I blame the Salomon X-scream. The only true hangover ski ever.
Let you ski places other skis only let you dream of after a 07:30AM departure from a not to be named bar in Morzine straight onto the slopes....
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
spud, Having read that article and a few more, I take back what I said. I was totally wrong!
I had only read the reports in German and obviously mistranslated something along the way. I think Paerson nailed it in the simplest and most effective way.
I just had a read of this on Ted Ligetys blog, it´s really interesting, if anyone want to have a read I copy pasted it here for you.
11 | 20 | 2011 Tyranny of FIS
FIS’s tyranny has gone on long enough. It seems FIS is going out of their way to ruin the sport. FIS runs a dictatorship. They demand absolute control then try to butter their will in a fake cloak of benevolence. Athletes, SRS (Association of Ski Racing Suppliers and NGBs (national governing bodies) are completely impotent in their ability to create positive change in our sport or to stand against rules FIS imposes.
I feel like I might be beating a dead horse on this subject but it is paramount for the future on ski racing. The new rules imposed on ski regulations can’t go through in their current state. They will eventually ruin this sport. As most people already know FIS is imposing new ski regulations that turn back the clock on the evolution of this sport. Giant Slalom has been unfairly targeted. Current rules are >27 meters radius (more sidecut) and minimum length of 185cm, new rules will be >35 meters radius (straight skis from 80’s) and minimum of 195cm. (I currently race on 29-meter radius, 191cm in length skis.) FIS has put together a study that has recorded injuries from 2006-2011. A time frame for which did not allow for any correlations to build between injuries and eras in equipment. We’d need the same info dating back to the early 80’s to see any injury to equipment correlations, not the last 5 years. In FIS’S study they say 36 skiers were “severely” (out for 28 days or longer) injured in downhill, 9 in Super G, 16 in GS and 11 in slalom. They didn’t not take into account that GS is the most skied event, everyone from downhillers to slalom skiers train GS. There are probably 200 GS runs skied for a single downhill run skied and in races there are 2 runs in GS as opposed to one in downhill. Without even doing math it is obvious that the injuries per run in GS are far less then downhill. This begs the obvious question that goes unanswered; why was GS targeted?
On the World Cup it is pretty rare when the vast majority of the athletes agree on anything. The ski regulations, particularly in GS have brought together the athletes like never before 41 out of the top 50 men signed a petition against the rules and in Soelden 15 of the top 20 men in GS (Austrians didn’t come) met to discuss the rules. (It should be noted that only 2 racers have advocated for the rules; Hannes Reichelt and Benjamin Raich along with one Ski Company Amer Sports or also known as Atomic and Salomon.) In which we all opposed the imposed ski regulations and agreed that the ultimate goal was to eliminate FIS from equipment regulation. As athletes we have the greatest incentive to be safe and healthy. We all know how short our careers can be and very few of us are compensated for the risks we take. Therefore, we currently and in the future choose equipment that not only allows us the ability to be fast but to make it to the finish line safely. I have on many occasions chosen skis that were slower but had better control instead of faster and uncontrollable skis. The equipment companies are highly incentivized to keep their athletes healthy as well. They have far more invested in us then FIS and NGBs so they want to protect us as their asset. FIS has shown that they don’t value athletes, as seen in this instance in their complete disregard for our input. FIS’s study was based around 2 on snow sessions with several Europa Cup skiers. Suffice to say that is not nearly enough data to come up with such dramatic conclusions. With just those two tests and with no input from athletes or coaches they pushed the rule though so that there was no opportunity to debate the proposals. The athletes, SRS and the coaches protested and have since proposed a World Cup test where the top 15 athletes would test the new equipment on a World Cup slope but FIS denied this opportunity to evaluation their hypothesis. Proof that FIS has little confidence that their research will hold up under further testing. FIS’s only goal it seems is to look like they are being proactive safety wise though they won’t bare the brunt of the consequences when they don’t work. By making these rules they can say they tried and that may somehow elevate them of any liability.
FIS has already shown their incompetence in coming up with safer rules in the past. In 2007 they made a rule that made the skis wider which made the skis more aggressive which may have led to injuries by extending the lever arm thus putting more force on the knee. The new rules will make the sport more not less dangerous. Not only did FIS’s study say that there was no statistical difference in force between current skis and new skis but they didn’t measure the torque that will be needed to twist the ski around in a clean manner. Thus creating a larger force on one’s knee. The law of unintended consequences will kick in and most likely create more injuries. The latest generation of World Cup racers has never skied on straight skis so these new skis will be completely foreign (less controllable), making them/us get into awkward body positions and ski in a “jumpy” manner so that we can create enough force to turn them. We will also take a straighter line in which we will slide the top of the turn then hit the edge hard, creating a higher peak force (mostly centered around the bottom of the turn where force is highest already), while leaning back to get the radius needed, since the sidecut in the tip will not allow the ski to turn in a forward/centered body position. Outside of the injuries this type of skiing will create by creating a higher sheering force on the knee (commonly associated with ACL tears), it will also cause greater fatigue, which is one of the leading injury causes. The ski industry has produced many studies tracking millions of skier visits over the last 30+ years in which they have found the advent of sidecut has juristically reduced injuries (mainly to the knee). I’m more inclined to believe a study that has tracked millions of skiers over 30+ years then a study in which testing was concluded in 2 days with less then 10 athletes. Injuries happen when the athletes are taken out of their comfort zone and we will not be in our comfort zone with these skis.
So how will this ruin the sport? The new skis will make skiing at the World Cup level less enjoyable to watch and perhaps more importantly far less enjoyable to participate in while making it more dangerous. Arcing clean turns is a joy everyone racing now days can enjoy. That feeling will be gone. First World Cup athletes will suffer this fate then in a couple years when the rules become FIS wide 15 year old kids will have to turn in their “old” carving skis for long straight skis. This will give the big kids an even bigger advantage and will drive kids out of ski racing; into freesking or the copious amount of other sports kids have available to them. Another way it will ruin the sport is the economically side. Ski racing is to ski technology as Formula 1 is to car technology. This new rule will take that away from ski racing since anyone will be able to buy better skis in a store then we race on. Why would ski companies stay in racing if it were no longer driving technology and sales? Ski companies are the main financial supporters of this sport; the athletes make the majority of their income for their ski companies and the amount equipment built for World Cup skiers is astronomical. If the athletes are no longer driving R&D and sales, the companies will eventually pull their support. Most athletes struggle to make a living at this sport already and without the support of the ski companies most won’t be able to afford to continue racing. And there goes the sport of ski racing.
FIS’s tyranny doesn’t just cover ski regulations but all sponsorships too, from the size of your headgear sponsor to the speed suit to the logo on your goggles. I am particularly concerned about the goggle logo issue for the obvious reason that I own a goggle/helmet company; Shred. FIS has long had a rule that the logo on the goggle strap could not be larger than 15 square centimeters. The rule has been ignored for just as long as it’s been around and for good reason, you can’t read a 15 square cm logo on someone travelling at speed and it was never enforced. This fall, out of the blue FIS decided they were going to enforce this rule, for seemingly no reason. Enforcement now is apparently, first a warning followed by not being allowed to start the race on the second offense. Most logos currently are 40-50 square centimeters. There is no point sponsoring a ski racer let alone start a company based around ski racing when one’s logo is too small to be noticeable. This hurts small companies like mine the most since it greatly takes away Shred’s ability to get valuable impressions to break through. Outside of this rule’s enforcement being a bad idea, it was not made known to companies early enough so they could put together the logistics to comply or what will likely happen in the future, decide their marketing budget is better spent else where. Which gets me to the greater point of FIS seemingly trying to drain the pockets of the athletes, since a large portion of athletes’ income is derived from helmet/goggle companies. I would think it would be in the sports, therefore FIS’s best interest to create value for not only FIS’s sponsors but also the sponsors that allow the athletes to compete at a high level.
Not only will FIS not listen to rejections from SRS and NGB’s on the ski regulations and logo issues as a show of complete power. It wants to fine athletes for speaking out against FIS. I was threatened several years ago for wearing a “FIS SUCKS” sticker on the back of my helmet. (I was 2 minutes late to a pre bid draw meeting and forced to start 45 while I was leading the standings hence the sticker.) I was told that a similar action would result in a 5000 CHF fine. Most recently word is that FIS is thinking about suing Jon Olsson for his choice comments he made on his blog about the ski regulations and posting “FIS SUCKS” logo on his site. At the most recent FIS meeting they discussed punishments for athletes speaking out against them. I quote an excerpt from that meeting, “The Council agreed to develop a “Code” to deal with cases of improper behavior that fall outside the competence of the competition jury to augment the existing rules, such as blasphemy on social networking sites or bringing the sport into disrepute.” Who would have thought that being a ski racer you lose your right to free speech.
One would think there would be some discourse to combat these atrocities but there is not at this point. Apparently Bill Marolt; the President of USSA and Vice President of FIS doesn’t even have the ability to bring these subjects up for discussion, let alone reversed or revised. The athletes to this point have had zero representation in the decisions FIS makes. When we hear of FIS’s decisions and we disagree we are ignored as shown in Soelden. Faceless committees make these decisions, and once the mandates are passed down their ego doesn’t allow them to admit wrong and reverse rules that are so obviously wrong. Unfortunately for alpine ski racing FIS monopolizes the sport so any and all changes will be hard fought or take FIS vastly rethinking their position in how the sport processes or more likely regresses. Perhaps it’s time to unionize the athletes or start an alternative tour. (An athlete union is now developing but it remains to be seen how effective it will be.) This should serve as warning for sports like freeride skiing and snowboarding, don’t let FIS monopolize your sport. FIS will bleed your sport dry of what has made it so cool.
Ted Ligety
P.S Feel free to repost this anywhere and everywhere
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
kooky, that's very impressive. Not just a pretty pair of legs, then.
After all it is free
After all it is free
All seems to make sense to me... FIS SUCK
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Pedantica, has Ted got pretty legs? I only look at Bodes
I just wonder where this is going to end, it is so sad for the sport.
Quote:
Who would have thought that being a ski racer you lose your right to free speech.
sums it up really
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It is sad that such things are happening. But i think it's good in the long run, if the Racers continue to stand up and make a point.
Reading between the lines of various articles, I am starting to think Politics are involved somewhere along the line.
As in, 'we can't have these damn Yanks winning everything'...who know's, but it all does seem a little odd to me.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Sounds to me like every racer/team should get together and set up a new federation keeping the current rules intact.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
shoogly, Ligetys last paragraph states that an athletes Union is now developing, I watch with bated breath.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
kooky,
shoogly,
It's a great idea, and a first step, but note needs to be taken of when all the athletes put a lot of work into forming "the union" what happens if (a.) F.I.S. refuses to recognise them,( b). gives the usual "yeah we'll look into it and then does nothing, (c). tells the athletes "off you go" and form another tour 'cos you're off the F.I.S. one from now.
I know this sounds like a lot of doom and gloom but if we call F.I.Ss bluff and they say" off you go" how many will give up their sport/livelihood for however long it takes to form a new tour and how many will cave in to F.I.S. pressure.
Fair play to Ted for taking the bull by the horns and making his views public- thats a big plus when one of the best in the biz shows he's got a big set of "cahones".
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
skimottaret is currently in Cervinia doing some GS training with Graham bell and and spotted Simone Origone in the lift with these babies! That's what I call a proper long pair of skis! Simone Origone is the current world record speed skier. Wonder if the FIS are thinking about adopting these skis for GS races? Not much sidecut on those.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
rob@rar,
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Top rant (although it would have been better if he'd put it through the grammar checker as well as the spell-checker ) - and a lot of things that look as if they need saying. Given the "bringing the sport into disrepute" rule, he could have set himself up for a big fine on this one. There is a bit of special pleading given the "Shred" helmet company, but all power to him. The interesting thing will be to see how many others put their heads above the parapet as well. If it's just him (and maybe a couple of others) he's essentially written his own sproting death-warrant: he'll have to knuckle under and look a fool, or quit. I hope a load more of the top 50 come out and make the same kind of noise he is, and maybe he'll get some action. These regs are going to separate "normal skiing" so much more from what gets seen on TV that the WC will die, as he says. I doubt setting up an alternative tour will really work, but with a big enough rebellion, hopefully FIS will come to their senses. Maybe the athletes should just decide en bloc that they will continue with the old specs and just stuff the rules: FIS will look pretty silly with 48 competitors DSQ on technical grounds and just 2 finishers.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
briand6868 wrote:
kooky,
shoogly,
It's a great idea, and a first step, but note needs to be taken of when all the athletes put a lot of work into forming "the union" what happens if (a.) F.I.S. refuses to recognise them,( b). gives the usual "yeah we'll look into it and then does nothing, (c). tells the athletes "off you go" and form another tour 'cos you're off the F.I.S. one from now.
I know this sounds like a lot of doom and gloom but if we call F.I.Ss bluff and they say" off you go" how many will give up their sport/livelihood for however long it takes to form a new tour and how many will cave in to F.I.S. pressure.
Fair play to Ted for taking the bull by the horns and making his views public- thats a big plus when one of the best in the biz shows he's got a big set of "cahones".
Apparently the Austrian racers and just about anyone on Atomic, did not show at that meeting in Solden. So, talk of a "union" or a boycot or anything much else stands very little chance. It's an Austrian stitch up basically.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Bode Swiller,
Or maybe it's Atomic (Amer) flexing their muscles and proving that "money talks" - as I said when the wages are threatened most who need the money will fold.
briand6868, the Austrians are very reluctant to talk about this......let´s face it, the races are being tucked up, who can afford to lose a sponsor???
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Bode Swiller wrote:
briand6868 wrote:
kooky,
shoogly,
It's a great idea, and a first step, but note needs to be taken of when all the athletes put a lot of work into forming "the union" what happens if (a.) F.I.S. refuses to recognise them,( b). gives the usual "yeah we'll look into it and then does nothing, (c). tells the athletes "off you go" and form another tour 'cos you're off the F.I.S. one from now.
I know this sounds like a lot of doom and gloom but if we call F.I.Ss bluff and they say" off you go" how many will give up their sport/livelihood for however long it takes to form a new tour and how many will cave in to F.I.S. pressure.
Fair play to Ted for taking the bull by the horns and making his views public- thats a big plus when one of the best in the biz shows he's got a big set of "cahones".
Apparently the Austrian racers and just about anyone on Atomic, did not show at that meeting in Solden. So, talk of a "union" or a boycot or anything much else stands very little chance. It's an Austrian stitch up basically.
Yes people that's it in a nutshell - very few racers, regardless of standard, can afford to compete full-time without major sponsorship or major prizemoney and for most its difficult to gain that 1 moneyspinner and not something they will risk lightly - a fact that is well known to the powers that be - and so its back to the big picture, they have us by the goolies and can control the pain very easily, but it's a right pain in the ar$e all the same.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Money talks, Austria must vin, same old story. Biggest TV audiences for ski racing are Austria and Germany, the FIS's biggest sponsors come from there too. Austrian skiers have to be top of the pile or interest dwindles. US have been kicking ar5e of late. Can't have that so stitch-up plan A goes into effect. The research is overseen by a guy very close to Amer and conducted in Austria by Austrians. New ski shapes mean lots more sales too. Now Ted's been forced to go out on a limb, virtually alone, and the powers behind Power Team Austria must be having a right grin.
And... never forget what Austrian political influence is capable of... Mr Baxter's medal?
After all it is free
After all it is free
Bode Swiller, Thats it I'm on Rossis and in Fischers from now on- I'll sort 'em- and don't get me started about Mr B. Seriously though it will probably take something like a severe drop in sales or viewing figures/ratings before they take note and even then they won't admit being in the wrong easily.
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I'd be quiet happy for the Racers to strike. Very difficult to do i know, and for those Racers sponsered by the likes of Atomic, even harder. When does Sponsership and money give way to Peer Pressure from fellow racers?
I maybe contradicting myself here, but there are far more people in the know than me...But... Weren't Atomic one of the manufacturere's that came out at the beginning and said they didn't want to change? When did they change their stance? Or is it purely Atomic Sponsered Austrians that are going along with it all?
Also i've noticed the most vocal racers, are sponsered by Head...an American owned company.
Anything in it?
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
Can you peeps putting forward some kind of an austrian / atomic plot explain your thoughts a bit more. Just curious and don't have much knowledge in ski racing, race politics, economics etc. I can't see how the rule change will advantage on set of skiers or manufacturer over the others, unless atomic have already been making new spec skis and only made available to the austrian team who have been training on them for a period. Teds blog rant seemed pretty agreeable to me. Anyone should have the right to speak about their "controlling" organisation without fear of punishment.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
waynos, I agree too.
I think the Austrian athletes and Atomic didn´t want to cross FIS.They were told not to turn up to that conference in Sölden. The WC is far bigger than Atomic skis.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
waynos, There is plenty on this site if you search for it.
In the very grey areas, it almost looks like USA/Head v Austria/Atomic/FIS
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
It's useless discussion, but since I have some spare time.... why not
First of all, this Ligety's article is just another one of his rants... same way as pretty much all of his rants since September. It's a whole lot of talking with very little real arguments. Same thing went for him and Bode in Soelden. They had longest speeches, yet they didn't say anything, and their "arguments" were dismissed by FIS and Salzburg Uni guys in blink of an eye. On the other side, when Cuche, Svindal, Jansrud and Paerson put out their arguments, guys from FIS and Salzburg Uni were just passing by microphone several time, and were left with no answer. And that's what I call argument, not endless talking without a single relevant thing.
Second... as owner of Shred, he has much more powerful way to go, then any other racer. SRS is group of companies, who are actually paying for most of this. And with Shred being part of SRS, he would have chance to push through SRS, and at least in my opinion, money makes more powerful arguments then anything else Yet, Shred, and everyone else, were gone unnoticed on SRS meeting.
On the other side, I perfectly understand Ted having so much against these rule change. He's by far best GS skier at the moment, and with current equipment. Beni on the other side is more or less gone, so I also understand his point for supporting change. Ligety will most likely do fine with new equipment too, but noone can tell for sure if he will or if he won't, and even if he will, will he still be so superior as he's now. Maybe, maybe not. So why to change, if you know you are best with current setup. On the other side Beni can't do much with current setup anymore, so any change will be better then keeping current things. He might not do much with new rules either, but at least he has chance. So it's perfectly clear for those two to support or not support change.
But as I said, it's pretty much useless. Nothing will happen, new rules will go on with new season, and to anyone who doesn't believe this, and who thinks skiers will go on strike, or they will form new independent tour, I'm just telling, wait will next October, when I will write "I told you so"
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Regardless of who is making the biggest noises, this really isn't about money purely...but from a skiers perspective or as a fan of racing, going back to 'straighter' skis is not going to be a pleasurable experience, either to watch or do.
The Racers are still on skis over 190 in GS. It is the radius sidecut that is going to make the biggest difference. Apart from technique, the heaviest tallest skiers will be the one's that benefit the most. Do we want to push out the slighter built Junior Racers of the future? When developing, they will get further pushed back down the pecking order, and it will be the bigger Juniors coming through to the top. It's nice that we have a mix, where technique, not purely power can make you a winner.
Perhaps fans speaking out as well as Racers will make them sit up and take notice as well.
I for one don't want to watch the top racers in the world jumping and skidding about like lunatics. Aesthetically...it's not pleasing to the eye.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
spud wrote:
I for one don't want to watch the top racers in the world jumping and skidding about like lunatics. Aesthetically...it's not pleasing to the eye.
Ironically, if the FIS do bring in these new rules, I can see the USA benefitting even more. They all ride the ski very much with their weight further back on the ski.
spud, Atomic are owned by the same people that make Saloman = Amer Sports! And they are based in Finland according to the link you gave. The Saloman and Atomic skis are primarily the same with different top sheets is what I was told last season as I was completely unaware of the fact that they had merged.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
spud wrote:
Head are US owned. Atomic Austrian.
Actually... both of these companies are exactly same. Both are located in Austria (at least ski production), but both are owned by someone else then Austrians. Atomic is not Austrian company anymore, but Finnish one, since Amer sports is Finnish company. So if it's just about Austrians, then Fischer for example would be more appropriate company, since it's located in Austria and owned by Austrian.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
spud, the list is divided into Men and Women racers and there are plenty of Austrian A squad youngsters signed up on both. The likes of Vonn and Raich could be withholding to make sure they do not lose any benefits from their ski sponsors, especially Benni who is at the end of his international career. Vonn skis on Head skis and they as manufacturers are one of the most vocal against the new FIS rules, so why hasn't she signed up?
After all it is free
After all it is free
Samerberg Sue, Only she will know...I suppose. But it makes interesting reading non the less, don't you think?
Whichever way you look at it...does anyone actually believe the FIS are making these rule changes purely because they fear more injuries in the future? The more you read, the more it becomes very grey. Imho...there is definately more to it than that.
As for where companies are based...surely it is more to do with the investors in those companies rather than the actual physical place of where their Manufacturing takes place?
It's all too political now...hope it doesn't get like F1.
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