Ski racing - have plastic slopes lost the plot?

A snowHead

The latest issue of Racer Ready magazine carries a front cover story which poses the question "Is ski racing on plastic under threat?"

The question arises from the trend away from Dendix, the time-proven brush-type matting that's done around 4 decades of service on Britain's artificial slopes. Many slopes are now converting to two alternative forms of continuous carpet-type matting - Snowflex or Permasnow - which provide a more comfortable ski, form into moguls and other terrain features more easily, and (it's said) reduce injuries from limbs trapped in the slope.

The problem - from the ski racers' point of view - is that slalom poles can't be planted into these wall-to-wall ski carpets.

The editor of Racer Ready, Neil McQuoid, quoted in this article on Natives, says:

A snowHead

David Goldsmith, Of course I used to race and race train on plastic and worked on the surface for 3 years or so. I was quite comfortable on Dendix at Gloucester in early June (after 15 years off it!), but I did prefer the Snowflex carpet at the top of the long slope. It "gave" as I applied pressure to the edges like real snow, slipped better, and I didn't experience any major difficulty turning. The pole problem can surely be overcome with a bit of thought, perhaps some of these clever snowHead

can come up with the solution. Very Happy

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

easiski, there has been a chat about this problem here...

No obvious solutions at the moment (as far as racing is concerned).

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David Goldsmith, I had a go on the plastic yesterday for the first time in 2 years. I am goign to be forerunning a race in a couple of weeks, and needed to work out if I could ski on the stuff again! Needless to

I tested the permasnow for my [dry slope] club last year at Bracknall, and we have now laid it down on our beginner slope. For that purpose it is excellent. For more advanced skiers, and for racers, I am not so sure.

On item that the various slopes have not included in the "cost saving", is that cost of the misting system for dendix. Permasnow is significantly smore slippy, and does not need a mist system. The John Nike slopes do not as a policy have misting systems, so this is not an additional saving for them. My slope (pendle), does not have a problem as we take water directly off the hill, and therefore do not pay for a misting system. For most other slopes this is quite a big running cost. IIRC the running cost for old llandudno misting systen for the year where in the region of £25k.

One company that import snow gates, and makes plastic gates has got a gate that works on the permasnow surface. I have yet to see it myself, but it does sound promising. The major problem to be overcome in any of the designs that i have seen or come up with, is the need to make the base flush with the running surface. That way only the flex and the gate are above this line, and therefore the skier cannot catch an edge/tip on anything else.

Various other solutions have been proposed, but none seem to have the simplicity of dendix diamonds. As a course setter, the ability to move a gate just a small amount is critical. This is actually more important on dry slope than snow as the courses are so much shorter that you want each gate to be "right". You also get to cheat by wathcing forerunner whilst course setting and get the opportunity to tweak the course to be what you want it to avchieve.

As a slope maintainer, the ease of replacement of the surface is night and day with respect to patching job on dendix. The major issue is the cost of conversion, as permasnow is a big investment.

Other thought?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Somewhat off-topic: how kind or unkind is Permasnow to one's own skis?

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slikedges, couldn't give you an authoritative answer to that, but I believe it's the friction heat rather than any abrasiveness that does the damage - especially where the slope isn't misted with water.

I wouldn't use my own skis on any form of artificial slope, and even the snowdomes seem to present problems - see the thread that was going on the lift track at Castleford, where snow has been banned!

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

slikedges, My experience with snowflex was that when damp it was fast and slippery and appeared not to be harming my bases, however when it was dry and warm it was slow and sticky and the damage to the bases appeared worst than dendix.
I haven't tried the test again to make certain though.

After all it is free

I really don't like plastic and am not too keen on MK type of facilties either. I see them as something you really should do rather than fun, more of a chore. I am so very bored going up and down 200 mts of slope for 1 hr so I am not hopeful that a newer type of surface would be very enticing anyway. I normally go with learners so I can at least feed off their enthusiam. I would expect Dendix to be more of an injury threat than the newer surfaces so personally wouldn't miss it too much. I mean, Dendix hurts which ever way you fall. But then I wouldn't race on either so whether or not I like it doesn't really matter......

Ok, ok, its late at work and I'm bored and wanna go home....!!!

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i am i racer of plymouth and at plymouth slope they have the stuff on the small AND medium slope. They are putting it on the main slope shortly. The problem is the slope is to step.

You cant get edge grip on the stuff ever from what i have skied.

The stuff is CRAP!!!!!!!!!

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I can't comment from any personal expertise but the instructor who was teaching the group of kids that I took to Silksworth (Sunderland) said the same thing about not being able to edge on the permasnow and snowflex. That must be quite a limiting factor as far as improving ones skiing is concerned.

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Lorraine, garyskisplym, I didn't have any major problems either wet or dry with edge grip on snowflex - I liked it!

As I said easiski, my knowledge is only hearsay, but it is reasuring to know that if I wanted to have a go it's do-able!

You know it makes sense.

I agree with garyskisplym, I skied on the snowFlex stuff at Rossendale and Gloucester and felt I had no grip/edge onit.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Skiing in Sheffield ski village on snow flex you generally have no edge grip. But, if you put more pressure/effort into the turn you start to get results. The only problem is it starts to become hard work!

A snowHead

We race on plastic, I race only at Gloucester and the Ackers, both slopes are Dendix. I prefer the Ackers as the surface is smoother, Gloucester suffers from sliding mat which can give little ridges where the mats join, and side slipping when stopping can result in a sideways fall. My kids race anywhere they can on plastic, which will always be Dendix. The favourite slope used to be High Wycombe, now they vote for Pontypool. Other kids in our club like Pendle the best, the rollers are fun, and above all the Dendix is green!

I think that there are 8 Club Nationals this year spread around the country, 5 Grand Prix, all at CN sites, 6 Celtic Cup races at Pontypool and Llandudno and then the All England, Welsh Nationals, British Open and finally a European open. The first CN is at Chatham in 2 weeks, Sunday 30th April I think. My kids will probably ski 4 Club nationals, 4 Celtic Cup and hopefully qualify for the All England at Hemel Hemstead. They have already skied in fun races at Stoke and the Ackers, with another at Telford in a couple of weeks.

Dry slope racing is a good day out, last year the final Club National at Swadlincote was declared full with 180 racers plus about 30 minis (10 and under), Wycombe had more than this. In a CN there are 3 runs over the same course, the best of the first 2 plus the final run count to give a final time. This is then matched back to the fastest 5 times using an incredibly complex formula to give seed points. Skiers with 250 or less seed points can then race in Grand Prix and the All England, where they have 2 runs over different courses, both runs to count. Again there are seed points calculated. It's tough competition, as the course cannot be skied in practice, there's just a course inspection like the real snow races. Skiers of 10 and under don't have seed points, they ski as minis for fun.

Training for racing is fun, they a session each week. They ski for 1 1/2 hours, coached, and they have the poles out for racing every 4 weeks or so for 20 minutes. There's no danger of getting bored with skiing down the same 80m of plastic every time. The skills translate well to snow, so holidays are also fun with very little ski area too difficult to enjoy.

A snowHead

Use the hate the snowflex at sheff when I worked there - but haven't tried in about 5 years so don't know if it's improved. It's nice on the nursery slopes as it's squishy but it's just hard work to parallel turn on and I can't IMAGINE racing on it in summer heat - surely it's too slow?
aj xx

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

This is the latest from the Bucks Free Press about the Wycombe slope.

http://www.bucksfreepress.co.uk/search/display.var.727132.0.summit_frozen_for_18_months.php

The line that disappoints me particuarly presuming it has been quoted accurately is:

"In the meantime people will go where they want to go. Our belief is when we open we will attract people whether they are new, old or different."

I know this is all big business but there doesn't seem to be too much concern for the many skiers and boarders who have used the slope regularly for many years.

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Surly to lose the plot, you first have to have had it. Little Angel

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

when i started racing on plastic, the gates they use now with the foot on them had not been invented, we has steel tubes buried into the hill that the standerd drill in gates went into, they had to be marked with dye on the slope, but i see no reason why they cannot do sim ilar by cutting a hole in the snowflex and drilling a sleeve into the hill. it does however limit the course configuations. Little Angel

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gsb, What a surprise - not many peeps wanted to move from High Wycombe to Tamworth Shocked

Very sad, it was a good venue.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

I skiied on ?Playsnow? (carpet type stuff) last night and it was very, very different to snow. I could barely do a snowplough at the beginning of the night. Though it doesn't hurt in the slightest when you fall over (I should know Razz

). Although at least when you go back to real snow, it seems a lot easier.

After all it is free

luckysmartie, like the bit about it being softer, I currently have a bum, thumb and gum injury from dendix (tues night) the bruise on my bum is solid purple with green around the outside and the size of a grapefruit.

CEM, thanks so much for your advice about doing up the boots more - they hurt much less. will replace when I have had the bone chip removed & no more swelling hopefully.

We have the carpet stuff on our nursery slope. For beginners it's great... very few injuries, falling does not hurt, so much. Learning on it is a much much more positive experience than Dendix....and the feel of it is nearer snow.

But, it's much less good for carving, and you can't (yet) put gates in. Next weekend will be last last plastic races at Chatham Sad

..cos of the carpet. Evil or Very Mad

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ski. Are you going to Chatham, if so I will have to see if I can spot a live snowhead.

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gsb, I'll be there for the LSERSA race (Sat)...are you racing ?

snow reports

Anyone race at Pontypool or Gloucester clubs here?

You know it makes sense.

ski. Not me I know my limitations (to old or not good enough more likely) but both my children will be racing and at Gloucester and no doubt many more.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Help!!

Ski racing - have plastic slopes lost the plot?

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