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ASSI and ASL

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Hi, Has anybody done either the ASSI or ASL courses?
I'm off to do the BASI 3 course in January and wondering whether to get one of these under my belt, if it's worth doing.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
ejoy, unless things have changed for the worse you will not be able to do the ASSI training unless you have previously clocked up many logged hours as a Club Instructor. For that you will have previously had to do (and pass!) the Club Instructor training, followed by lots of supervised practice, then the assessment for initial qualification as a Club Instructor. Passing that would then enable you to clock up the requisite hours as a Club Instructor with a view to progressing to ASSI training and assessment, although it must be said that CI is as far as many are capable of going in terms of personal skiing skills.

As to whether it's "worth doing", what exactly is your definition of worth? I fear that you see BASI 3 as some sort of trophy/statement - please tell me that's not the case rolling eyes
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Alan Craggs,
Quote:

I fear that you see BASI 3 as some sort of trophy/statement - please tell me that's not the case

I don't know what ejoy's motivation is and personally have no intention of doing BASI 3 but what is wrong with gaining the qualification just for the achievement itself Puzzled
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slikedges, maybe it puts up the price for those who see it as a route to a livelihood.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Alan Craggs,
Quote:
I fear that you see BASI 3 as some sort of trophy/statement - please tell me that's not the case

That certainly is not the case! Maybe I should have given more info or something. I am persuing a career in outdoor persuits including Snow sports hence why I am going to train for the BASI qualifications. I agree that in itself it is an achievement.

In regards to the ASSI I have obtained information off this site which explains it very differently to how you do :
http://www.snsc.demon.co.uk/courses/assi.htm
Are you thinking of the ISIA?

I was interested to see what other qualifications are out there to add to experiences and based on the information on that site, the ASSI seemed like a possible course that I could gain experience on beforehand. By 'worth doing' I mean in terms of how recognised it is etc. There is nothing wrong in adding to qualifications if they can be put to good use.
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OK I accept that I may have taken this "is it worth doing" thing a little too personally, having spent many years as a volunteer going through the Club Instructor / ASSI route.

Shades of the "everyone and his dog seem to get a 1st Class honours these days" Smile

Snowsport Scotland have or had a different approach to England and Wales in this matter, and it appears from that site that they will accept people on their ASSI course who have not gone through the CI route - although having looked at the England site it appears that they are also providing a "fast track" system now, although it still requires a minimum of 20 hours supervised instruction after the course.

Maybe the essential point here is not "is an ASSI worth having" but rather "is the course worth doing"? Well, that's only something that you can decide. If you can actually get an ASSI qualification from scratch simply by doing the course then it has clearly been devalued, I've been wasting my time all these years and shall probably hang up my skis Sad
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It sounds like the way you have gone about it includes a very respectable amount of time put into it and therefore invaluable experience?

Yes - the point I should have said right from the start is "is the course worth doing"! I certainly didn't mean to offend or get that response so apologies if I wasn't clear. It's not my fault they change things over time.

For reference I since found this which is useful in showing the different routes to the qualification : http://www.britski.org/instruct.pdf

Cool
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
ejoy, it's OK! It was late and I was tired, I got a little emotional over how I interpreted your language - getting things "under your belt" for example wink . My opinion is that the course would probably be worth doing, but it kinda depends on a few things as do most endeavours in life. And I think you're wise enough to see that the ability to deal with all sorts of situations on the slopes does not usually come from 5 days or 2 weekends on a course, but from lots of experience, observation, counselling and practice.

Best of luck with BASI - where are you planning to do it?
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Thanks - I'm going to Haute Nendaz for the course. Have you ever been there?

I agree - it's like for example a ski technician course - it's great to go on a course but the only way to gain proper experience is to practice it.

Cool
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ejoy, I've not done an ASSI course but I'm planning to do the course at Castleford at the end of September. I know a person that used the ASSI course as a precursor to the BASI 3 course and considered it extremely worthwhile.

I'm interested in doing the course for my own experience and to benefit my own skiing. Would I like to teach in the future? I've over 15 years of top level coaching experience from my shooting days so I know a little about coaching techniques and that I enjoy coaching. Will I be good enough? At this point probably no, but the course will highlight my weaknesses and the areas I need to work on. No one should pass the course if they're not good enough. The ASSI course won't make me an overnight instructor but could be the first step on a many runged ladder. BTW, I haven't done any instructor 'shadowing' hours as I'd prefer to do that after attending the course to ensure that what I see/do is correct etc.

Alan, As a high percentage of people who take ski instructor qualifications either never actually teach or don't teach for long due to the economic pressures etc., shouldn't existing instructors be offering encouragement to potential instructors rather than barriers to entry.

Also you can't get the ASSI qualification by just doing the course from scratch. After passing the course the ASSI certificate is then only awarded upon completion of the required number of logged shadowing hours and the completion of a First Aid Certificate, so I see no reason why it's value has been reduced.

Incidentally, it was damned hard work to achieve a BA Hons in Business Studies (yes a 1st) at the age of 43, whilst having a full time job and family etc. And yes I did it for my own self gratification and I make no apologies for that.

laundryman, Your comment is flawed in that the individual cost is reduced the more people who attend.
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spyderjon,
Quote:
I've not done an ASSI course but I'm planning to do the course at Castleford at the end of September. I know a person that used the ASSI course as a precursor to the BASI 3 course and considered it extremely worthwhile.

That's good to know, and exacly what I was thinking! Infact I have heard that you don't actually need to do the ASSI course before the BASI as a lot of it is covered in the BASI 3 course, but my thinking behind doing one anyway would be to gain a bit of instruction and experience prior to this.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
spyderjon, Which dates are you looking at for the Cas course?
Depending on work commitments I was also considering that course from the 26th-30 if there are still places available.
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ejoy,

The more training you can do the better, I think. However, when I did my BASI gap course there were two ASSI qualified instructors who failed, depsite having just spent a season in the Alps. They passed on the teaching but it was their own skiing ability that let them down. So although it will probably help you considerably with the teaching, an indoor / dry slope will never get you to the same level as the huge amount of experience you can get in the mountains.

spyderjon,
Quote:

laundryman, Your comment is flawed in that the individual cost is reduced the more people who attend.


Hmmm, not so sure about that. The BASI gap courses in particular seem to have gone up quite a lot in price since I did it 3 seasons ago, as they become more and more popular.

About a third of the people on the course I did are working / have worked full time as an instructor after completing the course. It was a personal ambition of mine to qualify as an instructor but because of work / life commitments it's not something I get the opportunity to use very often. But is something I want to use more in the future!
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
spyderjon wrote:
laundryman, Your comment is flawed in that the individual cost is reduced the more people who attend.

If there are spare places. In general, price goes up with demand, until supply catches up.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
srobbo wrote:
spyderjon, Which dates are you looking at for the Cas course?
Depending on work commitments I was also considering that course from the 26th-30 if there are still places available.


I'm doing the 26-30th Course.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
ejoy, There would certainly be no harm in doing an ASSI course, and it will probably be helpful (and I don't want to offend Alan Craggs).

However when I looked at doing it - I was already a Grade 2 - they insisited that I produced 2 weeks liftpasses to prove that I'd skied 2 weeks on snow. I explained that I was a BASI 2, and that I'd skied all my life and that I'd raced at Junior National level, and therefore had no "souvenir" liftpasses, and could not get hold of one. They said "no liftpasses, no course" so I told them to stuff it!!!

How about the pre-season bash weekend? Why don't you pop over for that? Very Happy We could then welcome you to snowHead properly!!
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
easiski, Thanks for that. Am I right in thinking you're an instructor now? I'll have a look at when the pre-season bash is and see if I can come! Cool
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
beanie1 wrote:
The more training you can do the better, I think. However, when I did my BASI gap course there were two ASSI qualified instructors who failed, depsite having just spent a season in the Alps. They passed on the teaching but it was their own skiing ability that let them down. So although it will probably help you considerably with the teaching, an indoor / dry slope will never get you to the same level as the huge amount of experience you can get in the mountains


I totally agree, although I'm sure the ASSI course tutors will be able to spot the weaknesses in my technique on just an indoor slope & advise me accordingly, which is exactly what I'm after.
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ejoy,

easiski is a very experienced instructor, which maybe we can one day aspire to be! Take a look at her website.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
beanie1, thanks - is this another way to say I'm getting old??? wink

ejoy, Yes - I've been teaching full time for about 25 years now, but started out almost 35 years ago ...... creak, creak, groan!! I wanted to do the ASSI as I wanted to do the Race Coaches course, and you have to have one to do the other - the vagaries of our system. Anyway I didn't bother with all that hassle - I've found the BASI 1 much more useful!!! wink wink wink BTW Alan Craggs is also an instructor and a pretty cool skier too. Very Happy
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thanks easiski, she's pretty cool also folks snowHead

spyderjon,

It is certainly not my desire to erect any barriers before enthusiastic people wishing to undergo instructor training. As I explained above, my hackles were raised by my own interpretation of ejoy’s words, which suggested to me that, viewed from the “lofty heights” of a prospective BASI 3, she considered that becoming an ASSI might not be worth doing. I apologise for interpreting her words in that way.

The reference to degrees was supposed to hint at self-mockery, perhaps a stronger hint was required. wink

However, as the matter of qualifications has been raised perhaps it is worthy of discussion. At the time that I became involved in the coaching scheme the system was as follows:-

1. Pre-entry requirement:- a minimum British Alpine Skiing 3-star award
2. Attend the Club Instructor training course:- a minimum of 12 hours or 2 days; it was possible to “fail” the training – a good time to weed out the hopeless.
3. Enlist a Placement Coach or alternative supervision via a Ski Centre management.
4. Attend 1 National Coaching Foundation Key course and study 3 others at home.
5. Undertake a minimum (and that is very much a minimum) of 20 hours of supervised and logged instruction. This would start with joining in an experienced Instructor’s lessons, then moving on to taking part of the lesson and finally taking the whole lesson under supervision, with the experienced instructor observing and giving feedback. The instruction periods would preferably cover working with adults, with children, possibly with disabled people, with small groups and large and in all weather conditions.
6. Continue to develop personal skiing and skiing knowledge.
7. Provide evidence of having skied in at least 2 snow ski resorts.
8. Gain accreditation from Placement Coach or attend Level 1 Assessment – if passed then gain endorsement from a Ski Club or local Ski Centre to become a Club Instructor.

(The Club Instructor is expected to work with Beginner and Novice Alpine skiers, embracing climbing, schussing, ploughing, plough steering, control of speed and direction down and across slopes).

Having worked for some time as a Club Instructor, one could consider level 2 training to become an ASSI.

9. Again, enlist Placement Coach and complete Placement.
10. Attend the ASSI training course, a minimum of 12 hours or 2 days.
11. Attend 2 additional N.C.F. courses and study 2 others at home.
12. Obtain 4-star British Alpine Ski Award and Emergency First Aid Certificate.
13. Continue to develop personal skiing and skiing knowledge.
14. Provide evidence of a minimum of 20 hours recorded instruction.
15. Attend the ASSI assessment – a much more rigorous test than the Club Instructor assessment. Maybe 50% pass rate at the time I did it.

Both Club Instructors and ASSI’s have to attend “re-validation” courses every 3 years.


(Some of these requirements (e.g. proof of attendance at the NCF courses) have been dropped over the years as ASSI’s and CI’s were absorbed into the “Development Coaching” section of the British Coaching Awards scheme).


The point of all this being to ensure that the paying customer receives appropriate, safe and effective guidance from someone who has been through a rigorous training system and has been independently assessed as being able to carry out that role.

Now I don’t know if these “fast track” courses are capable of producing ASSI’s of lower, equal or better quality than the old system. I do know that many folk who present themselves for instructor training are, sadly, not suited to the task for one reason or another – and that includes many good racers who are simply unable to demonstrate a decent snowplough. Shocked

Similarly, I can’t speculate on the course organisers’ motives for producing these courses. However, I believe it is well known that the ski community moves in mysterious ways. Given the number of folk who have to re-sit various BASI courses, some have, uncharitably I’m sure, suggested that certain areas are good money-spinners. Not for me to say.
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Alan Craggs,
Quote:
viewed from the “lofty heights” of a prospective BASI 3

I have great respect for all those with ski instructing experience and qualifications. I might not be as experienced as you but I am going to go through Instructor training with the new system as that is what is available to me. Just because it has moved on, doesn't mean you have to knock it. I know you haven't said a bad word specifically about it but I'm not stupid and that is basically what you have done!

I am open to comments but when most answers from someone are negative and putting down the system to which I am pursuing, you can't help but feel that it's their personal opinion, that they just can't accept the new system and so they take it out on the one who posed the question.

Puzzled
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ejoy, I just apologised for interpreting your words that way! Read what I said again snowHead

and whatever you care to make of my other remarks, they're certainly not aimed at you Little Angel
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Alan Craggs, Posting your personal view on a coaching system to which someone is enrolled with doesn't exactly install confidence that's all!

I'm not worried though as I have heard a lot of good things, including what other people on this forum have said..
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ejoy,

I don't think Alan Craggs, was specifically criticising BASI, more defending ASSI. You will come across a lot of heated debate about the pros and cons of every different instructor qualification. Understandably most people think theirs is the best and nothing else worth bothering with! Take it all with a pinch of salt and don't let it bother you.
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ejoy, I am NOT knocking the BASI qualification. I think getting it is a great achievement. That I jumped on my high horse last night, and for which I have apologised above, was due to me thinking that you were questioning the worth of an ASSI. That was, at one time at least, considered an achievement for us dry slopers.

Where have I posted a personal view on the BASI coaching system? From my aquaintance with BASI trainers and others, I would say they are excellent.
I may have hinted at something about the politics of certain organisations, but that's a different matter, isn't it?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Alan Craggs, Ok I can see that it was just the organisations now! It was unclear as to what you were questioning. I don't nomally read too deeply into posts on a forum but seeing as you did to mine, I decided to do the same. It is a different matter with the organisations and you can recommend one that coaches through the older system if you can find one!

I can see why you got uptight about my first post, and I would consider the achievement of gaining the ASSI qualification as a great one! -Which along with the experience, was why I consider working towards it in addition to the BASI courses. As I did not know the system through which you gain yours I did not know about all the time and effort there was. I was purely going by what I had read.
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ejoy, glad we're sorted now Cool

and no, I haven't been to Haute Nendaz, although a friend of mine went a few years back and recommended it on his return.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
ejoy,

i have skied part of the Haute Nendaz ski area. It is all linked up to the Verbier / Mont Fort ski area so there is some superb skiing.
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ejoy, Don't worry - we have some great contentious discussions here - the main thing is to take it all with a pinch of salf! And yes, we all also have our hobby horses which we jump on fairly regularly - the more time you spend on snowHead the more you'll see the patterns - it's all really good fun though, and all the snowHead s I met at the bash last April were really nice people. Also had a quick ski with Snowskisnow and Alan Craggs at Gloucester + my sister and niece + a good friend from the old Stainforth ski racing days - loadsa fun!!!

One of the things that annoys me personally is how often newly qualified Grade 2s and Grade 1s tell me how much harder it is now than when I did it...... Well, it's true! But not harder in relation to the average skier's ability level!!!! Grrrrrrrrrrrr Twisted Evil

Have fun and enjoy yourself Very Happy Very Happy
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 Poster: A snowHead
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Alan Craggs wrote:
Given the number of folk who have to re-sit various BASI courses, some have, uncharitably I’m sure, suggested that certain areas are good money-spinners. Not for me to say.


I'd say you've hit the nail on the head there Alan. As Beanie1 said, the cost of the gap courses seem to have risen quite steeply over the last few years.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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easiski,

Quote:

One of the things that annoys me personally is how often newly qualified Grade 2s and Grade 1s tell me how much harder it is now than when I did it......


Could you not retaliate that maybe they should try doing it on straight skis?!

P.S. This is not meant to be a way to suggest youre getting old! wink Just guessing that you probably achieved grade 1 before the revolution in ski design...
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ejoy, If you can - do the CI and ASSI - note that the ASSI qualification is quite hard to acheive ! BASI 3s and Club Instuctors mostly teach beginners to ski....so the CI (if not the ASSI) is ideal preparation for BASI.....
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beanie1, I didn't think of that! I'l just trot out a pair of 2m skis and insist they do end form parallels with their feet jammed together - no splitting!!! Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
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easiski, gloves between the ankles and they fail if the can't manage a 100yd slope with half a dozen decent turns without dropping the gloves Twisted Evil
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D G Orf, Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
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D G Orf wrote:
easiski, gloves between the ankles and they fail if the can't manage a 100yd slope with half a dozen decent turns without dropping the gloves Twisted Evil


There is an instructor in the US who, at least until a couple of years ago, would get his students to get a $20 out of their wallet, and put it between their boots. If they managed to hold it there while skiing a run, then they could keep it. If not, they had to give it to him. (I'm not sure if he still teaches that way)
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Wear The Fox Hat, One would certainly hope not - it's a dreadfully inefficient way to ski!

I should point out that when I did my 1, end form parallels were considered "the top", but we were already teaching/allowing a more open stance in our pupils - it was as much a skill test as anything else. The ESC were ahead of BASI on this point.
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Wear The Fox Hat, easiski, When I did my 2, (94 ?) we were very much into feet apart, using both skis etc. (straight skis) Has anything changed ?
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easiski, that description I gave with the gloves was one of the tests my father had to do in order to get his gold ski badge from the Swiss Ski School Wengen back in the late '50s or early '60s
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