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valais2, Elston ... Thanks guys.

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fascinating, I'm 100 kilo, ski (aggressively) on 5DIN and rarely if ever have an unexpected release. If I do summat wrong I lose my skis . . . isn't that the point? If I'm doing things correctly (not balls to the wall on a race piste) my skis are not going to fall off and if I cock it up then I want t'boogers off my plates without taking my knees with them. It was funny that when I asked the hire shop at the family bash to set my hire skis at 5, the tech just said "bon"?

But then again, I'm a boarder so what do I know rolling eyes

IME dodgy forward pressure is the main cause of pre-release (gee-pee to make of that what he will!).

Speaking as someone who has nose ploughed a very steep groomed pitch as a result (in full sight of the chairlift).

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fatbob,

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The ski itself all has a slight influence on release. I moved from a light foam core ski to longer stiffer skis along with a lightly shorter boot and had to put my din up from 6.5 to 8.5 to prevent pre-releases. I started a bit lower and just increased by half if I started popping them. Still get the odd one if I make a mistake or land a jump badly but think the balance is about right. I'm 74kg and think that I ski fairly delicately.

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Chamcham, ...i like it

the wisdom of DIN:

know thy bindings, know thy terrain, and know thy limitations (and set right the forward pressure).

amen.

You know it makes sense.

At the other extreme my brother once put his skis into a shop in Canada for a wax and when he skied them the next day was not amused to find they'd cranked them down to a DIN of 1 (presumably due to some extreme fear of liability as he hadn't filled out the bindings detail of the ticket). I on the other hand was most entertained by his frequent pre-releases and the subsquent explosion at a "helpful" mountain host who, recognising us for the tourons we were, suggested that he shouldn't be cranking his bindings up at one of the on-hill workbenches as it might cause injury. I think host narrowly escaped being impaled on a screwdriver for being a "smug patronising git".

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Scarpa, ...interesting observation re impact of ski construction. But 6.5 to 8.5 is quite a lot (how much shorter was the boot?) - forward pressure set correctly? Just had a chinwag with the excellent Simon at Ski Exchange and he confirmed the significant impact of error in forward pressure setting.

Masque I hesitate to approve of your approach (since I don't want to encourage people to do things which might put themselves at risk - hence 'use the tables...') but it's exactly what I do, and I am very interested in the 'change the DIN with sensitivity until you find the right DIN', which - according to quite a few of the posts here, are quite a lot lower than you might think (French research on DIN minus 1 very interesting here) - it certainly is my approach.

I think we've all got a lot to do on this issue. Shops seem to be doing the wrong thing on occasion, and this is where informed consumer pressure might really help.

I will repeat ChamCham's Wisdom Of DIN:

know thy bindings, know thy terrain, and know thy limitations (and set right the forward pressure).

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valais2, I thought so too but I also progressed quite a lot around this time, went from 315mm sole to 305mm, went from soft beginner boot to stiffer, 170cm skis to 177cm and doing steeper offpiste with more time in the park. Skis were initially set at 7.5 by Smallzookeepers pet staff in Cham (I do trust them to set up the skis correctly) but I was popping them all over the place. Adjusted to 8 and still had more than I wanted, 8.5 and I have the skis coming off in crashes but only occasionally when recovering from mistakes.

The other old skis were B2's... like a wet noodle so they did absorb a lot of force Laughing

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Scarpa, ...looking at the Salomon chart I have you at 75kg and over 6 foot - that correct?

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clarky999, ....Hmmm....good points. I guess I feel that ability is in fact a crucial issue. I ski with a guy who has one ski binding jammed on 12. I said 'is it a problem?' - and he said 'I never fall'. And he doesn't. He's one of the best instructors I have ever known (and that's a lot). So I can see where you're coming from. But keeping a handle on ability is vital, I think. I concur with your 'do everything not to fall' but I so frequently see people out of their depth that I wouldn't want anyone cranking their bindings up as a substitute for making a good decision on what they can do and what is borderline or plain mad for them to do. It's interesting that there seem to quite a few lower level skiers here, skiing delicately and technically, who have had problems with damage caused by excessive (for them and their terrain) DINs. But I agree...for very highly skilled skiers, DIN is almost an irrelevance.

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Scarpa, you're on 8.5 right?

clarky999, I've been with GrahamN on one of the occasions it's happened - over the back of La Grave heading down to St Christophe. The guide's rationale IIRC was that the top pitch was a bit narrow and in poor condition so potentially a long slide/difficult recovery. I think there is also a psychological impact in that as clients you feel "he's serious, I really shouldn't dick about here. I'll make sure I stick my turns". Think I wound them back down the next day though.

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Scarpa, and clarky999 ...just to be clear.. the original post stated:

'...I used this approach for years, and then the tables came out more publicly, and lo and behold, my DIN is 5.5 in the tables. And I felt cross that the shops had been putting my ligaments at risk.

But it's just astonishing that 'cranking up' is still going on...'.

'Astonishing' related to my upset that HIRE SHOPS are still cranking up (my recent example was a 7 which should have been a 5), even in the existence of very clear guidance re renting, from the Salomon technicians' manual etc. I can see that you thought I was impuning the guide mentioned in GrahamN's post. I wasn't. The 'astonishing' didn't relate to that. Rather, I said I couldn't understand it in relation to steeps..and your own posts actually make much clearer the circumstances in which you personally do it and the reasons for it, which is very helpful.

Running on 5, I've only ever had one pre-release, and that was a long time ago, with some soft as soft recreational skis whilst really pushing it through some trees. But then I'm not really into huge air, so not much experience of 'off axis landings' etc. Steeps though, I go for, and therefore I'm interested in the 'unwritten rules' which build up through experience in terms of DIN etc amongst those such as yourselves who do go for air and narrow steeps.

I am not an expert on DIN settings, but I can tell you my experience and what I do.

I have had my own skis serviced by technicians in Albertville, Aviemore, and Verbier. I now do it myself, mainly on cost issues, but also because I like to know what the DIN setting is before I ski on them.

When in Verbier the technician said he had adjusted the rear setting on one ski so that the DIN was lower than it should be. At the time I was about 20 Kg heavier than I am now, and so the DIN setting used is not accurate to my position now. He said he did this to make sure one ski released when forward force was applied. This was Verbier, and I was heading off on unpisted routes.

Anyway, I thought about this advice, and read up on how boots release. Also I noticed that the vast majority of times when my boots release, they will slip out at the toe rather than the heel. This is because the force required to release at the heel is an upward force rather than a sidways force, and my falls are usually not that spectacular (i.e. they tend to be a wrong edge caught, rather than a forward roll) So I agreed that this one boot adjustment might be suitable for my skiing style. I do not tend to ski in snow parks, or do a lot of jumps or bumps.

As you go off piste more (or ski in Scotland), so you need to ramp up your DIN setting half a notch. There tends to be more rocks and stress on the release and so I now ski with a DIN 7 rating on the skis I used to ski with 5.5 to 6, 10 years ago even though I was heavier.

There are some tests you can do yourself on skis which check that the DIN setting is roughly right.

http://www.ski-injury.com/prevention/st

I do this sometimes, and really should do it every time.

No matter how well a ski technician knows his stuff, he does not know you as well as you know yourself. He does not know how you ski, what risks you take, and what is the most likely accident you will have because of your style. Only you know that, and for that reason I believe you are better setting your own. (beyond beginner/intermediate level)

Perhaps, even adjusting the DIN setting prior to some particularly difficult terrain, or some particularly hard and fast skiing?

rolling eyes

You know it makes sense.

i am 85kg and 165 cm, and had a setting of 6 , that was until skiing in st anton early this year when in very heavy wet snow condition in the off piste i kept coming off my skis on a "too" regular basis at slow speeds , where there was no real danger of knee damage, but more danger of actually losing a ski in the cr&p snow and also it was very tiring having to get skiis back on in difficult terrian. after a disscussion with the guide , he pointed out that with all the BC gear i was carrying i was probably 15 kg heavier that i thought and therefore we upped the din to 8 and i this worked well in that situation, so i now work to two settings for two completly different weights and skiing conditions .

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Swirly, The easy one without much hiking on the plateau IIRC. To be fair the run wasn't as tough as the guide had psyched us up for but was nice and corny.

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fatbob, interesting, the walk out put me off doing it again on a board*, I guess we had pretty good conditions of corn and a really deep snowpack. I thought the only real hazards were the possibilities of being taken out by stuff coming off the hanging glaciers. The guidebook seemed to overrate the difficulty of the descent into the valley too though so perhaps my perception was wrong.

* I'd go back for the couloirs and maybe for the scenery if I was feeling like a long walk; it is a stunning place.

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I find it interesting that shops put DINs higher than anyone would want. Being just 140lbs, my suggested DIN is always below what I would want, even at the 3+ ability level. I'm always having to sign waivers to have the shop set it higher (this is in the US). Is this different in Europe? Unless someone is putting their ski level above what it should be or not letting the shop know about prior injury, I just don't see how the chart could be higher than what you want.

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I think the kg/10 only really works for aggressive skiers. I'd say for beginners it should be kg/10 -2/3 which is about right on the din calculators.

I've only experienced my din being set too low. On my first season at the age of 18, weighing about 80-90kg my new skis were set to 6 and I promptly pre -released skiing a black and slid all the way to the bottom. Obviously Ellis Brigham had gone to the other end of the scale and put a lower din even though i'd said i was a level 3 skier etc etc. One of the guys in my accomodation told me about the kg/10 and i've used that as an approximation ever since.
I've done BASI and i'm pretty sure we were told to have a quick check of bindings and make sure dins were approximately right, obviously not giving advice, but making sure they weren't too high, and to tell them to go back to the shop if they were ridiculous.

The only time i've ever had to sign has been when i've told the shop what din i want, as the liability was rightly mine. I can't understand shops making you sign away liability when they have made the decision as to what din you should have. Maybe it was stating that information you had given them was correct?

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Many years ago I took my skis in for service and they adjusted them down to 3 so the first fast corner I did they both came off.

I have for a long time had my skis on 8.5 (though I am 72kg naked so on the 1/10th rule I should be on 7). However I was getting too many pre-releases with my Fritschi Freerides the year before last (in crud and small jumps I landed correctly) and put them up to 9 (or rather the guide did since I had stupidly left my screwdriver in my room).

I was rather worried, though, that my muscles weren't up to supporting my ligaments to actually force a sideways (ie twisting) release at 9, or even 8.5 so I had previously sometimes put my side releases half a point below the forward release level. I have been told, though, that you shouldn't do this so I would welcome advice on this. I should mention I have "ligament insufficiency" on one ACL (I have only part of the ligament) though this is (slightly) my stronger leg.

Getting my new Baron bindings fitted last month, though, they told me as a 62 (soon 63) year old I should put my bindings down to 7 or 7.5 - so on the basis that Barons can possibly absorb more shock on jumps etc than the Fritschis, we compromised on 8. We shall see. (by the way I am 179cm with boot length 30cm)

I too have once had the guide crank up our bindings for an exposed 45º slope and more recently once did so on my own initiative. I feel that the guide should have done the same many years ago when we were skiing a 50º couloir above a cliff (I've given the url for this story so often I won't bother here, but I was very lucky not to be killed). Generally it is probably easier to stop a fall if you have skis on but if you ski steep slopes you should really practice the technique of stopping yourself without them (I wouldn't be alive if Giles Green hadn't made me do that and we also did it on the Jackson Hole "Steep and Deep" camp). Also on a long steep slope, especially above rocks, you'd be in deep sh*t with one ski or no skis.

In answer to those who say you shouldn't be somewhere where a fall might be fatal if there is any chance you can fall, I can only say I fall over very seldom (perhaps a couple of times in an 8 day off-piste holiday) and (normally) never where it actually matters. But there is always a small chance that anyone can fall. However, if the guide knows you well and feels you are up to it and you want to do it I don't see why you shouldn't.

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