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din din and more din

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
...as a relative s-heads newbie I may be covering old ground...if so, moderator please guillotine or someone say so...

what is it with DIN settings?

I have to set up skis for loads of people including tiny children - I simply use the salomon and rossi DIN tables which come in the tech manuals and on line. But shops frequently set up DINs FAR too high. I lent some skis to a friend and since they were at some distance, just said that they should go into a shop and get the DINs set - the shop set them at 7 whereas the Salomon table gave 5 (for her height, weight, boot sole length and experience).

I set my DINs at 5 after many years of skiing which gave me no pre-release and good pop-out in the right contexts, and indeed is spot on in the various tables. So why do shops go so much higher than the tables? It's not an isolated thing; someone a couple of years ago had a nasty injury caused by a shop using excessive settings...anyone else with experience along these lines?
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The first time I ever went skiing, it happened to me Sad

Obviously, being a complete newbie, I had no idea what my settings should be. I told the hire shop in Verbier what my height and weight were, and that I was a complete beginner, and they set my bindings to 9.

I'd had a couple of lessons on the dry slope in Cardiff before I went, and the instructor had said I didn't need the "absolute beginner" class, but should go for the level one, which didn't start until the Monday, so I skied around by myself on the Saturday. Finished up having one big fall in the Savroleyres area that wrenched my left knee badly because the ski didn't come off. Fortunately in such a way that I was able to carry on skiing for the week, but was seriously hobbling around the chalet in teh evening, and took a few months to fully recover afterwards.

I later found out that the "correct" DIN setting for me was about 6.5. I normally now ski with it set at 6, and have never had a pre-release, nor an occasion since when the ski should have come off but didn't.
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I have heard some rental shops just divide your weight in kilo by 10 irrespective of other factors, done for speed on busy changeover days.
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shops should follow the DIN chart but they can only follow the information given by the customer, the number of people i have seen bigging themselves up to beign level 3 skiers when in reality they are not even likely to make level 2 just because they don't want to appear to be not as good as they want to be

every time a binding is set there should be a workshop card with all the information on it, it is signed by the tech and the customer at the time of the skis being put in for the work to be done, it should then be signed again by the customer on receipt of the skis (stating that they are happy with the settings as they have been set), they can of course question them .... these cards should then be kept by the shop for a number of years, (i seem to remember 5 being the number but it is a while since i worked in any form of workshop klike that)

the card is the evidence if there is ever a court case so any shop who doesn't keep them is asking to be claimed against


in the near future every shop selling skis/mounting bindings will have to have a torque tester as certain brands are sticking stickers on their bindings to be removed by the end user statign that the system has been torque tested and should be retested every year
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CEM wrote:
...in the near future every shop selling skis/mounting bindings will have to have a torque tester as certain brands are sticking stickers on their bindings to be removed by the end user statign that the system has been torque tested and should be retested every year


That's really good news. Will that apply just in the UK - or throughout Europe?
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gsb, Happened to a friend, who is a low intermediate. He weighs 110 kg, so they set the bindings on 11, which was maxed for the binding. No questions as to ability etc, just what do you weigh. They should have been on 7 to 8. He fell over and the rear heel of the binding snapped, and his boot would not come out. He didn't know how to get it out, so walked back to our apartment with one bare socked foot and carrying a boot in one ski still. Luckily it was the binding bust and not his leg / knee.


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 23-05-11 21:04; edited 1 time in total
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CEM, I think we are talking about rental here (I certainly was), rather than retail skis.
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carroz, ...hi carroz...and thanks for the Scott bindings, they are gracing some Salomon mai tais now...

but re this issue - does a couple of replies make this an issue ... I feel as though it might ... it seems common enough to warrant a bit more discussion. At the very least, people should take responsibility for establishing their DIN settings (without the exaggeration which CEM refers to) by using the charts, and then asserting that with the rental companies....shouldn't be necessary but feels as though it is....
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It's easy for us to focus on the DIN, but possibly more confusing for a newbie is that the forward pressure maybe set incorrectly at the same time. I have seen this many times with Marker Royal bindings, even when purchased/hired from the same shop. One tech in a rental shop told me this was common practice with Duke bindings to make them easier to get into, otherwise customers just bring them back.

I'd be interested to hear what someone knowledgeable on the subject has to say and how this affects the DIN rating. I suspect it reduces the effective rating (apart from not probably working as intended) and this is probably dangerous as Johnny then pops into the next shop saying he needs a din of 13 to stomp, because a 12 pre-released.
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alex_heney wrote:
CEM, I think we are talking about rental here (I certainly was), rather than retail skis.


irrelevent, DIN setting is DIN setting whether it is on a rental ski or your own ski, proceedures are (or should be) the same with the exception of a full workshop ticket, but there should still be a rental contract which should contain all the same details

and yes rental operatiosn will most probably have to have a machine in the near future too, afterall rental kit generally takes more abuse than personal kit


form what i hear this will be europe wide, it has been on the cards for many years, about time it actually happened
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gsb wrote:
I have heard some rental shops just divide your weight in kilo by 10 irrespective of other factors, done for speed on busy changeover days.


I heard an instructor telling a client that last season, as he reached for a screwdriver. Strangely, it just about works for me.

Some of our lardy boys will have to fork out for race bindings next season. Cool
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Mosha Marc wrote:
gsb wrote:
I have heard some rental shops just divide your weight in kilo by 10 irrespective of other factors, done for speed on busy changeover days.


I heard an instructor telling a client that last season, as he reached for a screwdriver. Strangely, it just about works for me.

Some of our lardy boys will have to fork out for race bindings next season. Cool


I wouldn't be happy with that from a rental ship with beginners/intermediates. I have though been at the top of a fairly steep slope where the guide has gone around checking bindings and racking them up where necessary (using the kg/10 rule), and I think that's fine - you're in more danger from a pre-release than you are from a bit of extra strain on the knee. For experienced skiers, the kg/10 rule works pretty well (and I actually go a bit higher still), but is over the top for the beginner/intermediates who skiing less hard.
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CEM wrote:
alex_heney wrote:
CEM, I think we are talking about rental here (I certainly was), rather than retail skis.


irrelevent, DIN setting is DIN setting whether it is on a rental ski or your own ski, proceedures are (or should be) the same with the exception of a full workshop ticket, but there should still be a rental contract which should contain all the same details


Yes agreed, the process and final seting should certainly be the same regardless of whether it is rental or retail.

It was the points you were making about teh workshop card and the sticker to be removed by the end customer that bmade me comment.

Quote:

and yes rental operatiosn will most probably have to have a machine in the near future too, afterall rental kit generally takes more abuse than personal kit


form what i hear this will be europe wide, it has been on the cards for many years, about time it actually happened


Indeed. Rental bindings are not only likely to get more "in use" abuse, but are also faffed around with in the shop far more often (due to weekly changes of user) than your own skis would.
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The shop set (or didn't set) the bindings on some new skis to about 3 (I was 85kg) I skied ok till I went off piste a little and found I had to turn around, as I flipped one ski around, both popped off, unfortunately I found I was stood on about 1 foot of snow on 4 foot high bushes, without my skis on I went straight down up to my chest, took me ages to get out!!
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tangowaggon, ...interesting, that situation sounds like an omission or oversight by the shop - ie forgetting to adjust at all. What really bothers me here is the number of ligament injuries being reported on my 'injury tally' thread, and whether these might relate to very arbitrary approaches to DIN, by hire shops in particular.

Using weight divided by 10 gives me 6.6 din, which is way over the 5 ish that I usually use (and pre-release hasn't been a problem). If we have a significant number of knee injuries emerging due to inappropriate DIN settings (ie too high) then we really should do something to raise the profile of the issue.
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Mt, ...agreed, a significant number of people have no awareness of the importance of accurate setting of forward pressure - not helped by the very different devices which are used on different bindings for indicating correct setting - I prefer the little window on Salomon rental bindings - very clear and easy.
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I think everyone other than complete beginners and children should know what din setting is right for them and check it. If you have your own stuff its also a great idea to to know how to adjust them yourself, FFS its not hard, and it is your leg!

I rarely see hire shops pay enough attention to forward pressure which must compromise the DIN, but all that I have directly experienced, except in the early days in Scotland have been careful with din settings.

If you find yourself on the hill in need of a screwdriver, ask a boarder they nearly always carry them, and know how to use them to adjust their own bindings.
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Strange the shop I use in Wengen has for as long as I can remember always set bindings correctly, mind you these days they computerise everything and bar code the equipment so it's unique for each user before they go out the door, perhaps they are just more aware of safety issues than some of the shops mentioned above.
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jbob wrote:
I rarely see hire shops pay enough attention to forward pressure which must compromise the DIN, but all that I have directly experienced, except in the early days in Scotland have been careful with din settings.


Yes, if they don't check the BSL of the boot or adjust it when the boot is in be concerned.

If they immediately set the DIN with no chart after asking your weight be concerned.
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narc,
Quote:

If they immediately set the DIN with no chart after asking your weight be concerned.


Sort of true, the shop I mentioned above does not consult a paper chart as they now have all the data in a computer programme, however they do adjust bindings based on boot size (in the computer) and skiing experience/capability so for example if you inform them you are an experienced skier who likes hard fast routes they will adjust DIN upwards or if inexperienced non aggressive skier downwards.

Simply saying divide weight in KG by 10 is wrong as it takes no account of sole length which dramatically effects the leverage on a binding someone with big feet might have as great as 2 points difference in setting compared to someone with small feet, all other things being the same
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Quote:

if you inform them you are an experienced skier who likes hard fast routes


Very Happy They will rolling eyes and assume you are a blue run hero, whilst trying to hide their contempt for everyone who is out skiing whilst they are stuck in this $%**ing shop Toofy Grin
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GrahamN wrote:
I have though been at the top of a fairly steep slope where the guide has gone around checking bindings and racking them up where necessary (using the kg/10 rule), and I think that's fine - you're in more danger from a pre-release than you are from a bit of extra strain on the knee.


I don't get that at all! Shocked

If I lose a ski, I, (or someone else), may be able to get it back. If not, and I am in the middle of nowhere, I may have to be rescued. But at least I can ski tomorrow. If I "lose" an ACL, I will have to be rescued and I will need an op, physio, and won't be skiing for a year Puzzled (My din would change from 4 to 5.5, which I think is a lot.)
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GrahamN, that would mean that I would have to set my bindings to 9, which is way way higher than I have ever used. I ski a lot, sometimes very fast and on all terrain, including one bad move and you're going to get hurt stuff, but cannot remember a binding releasing when it shouldn't. I always have the bindings set at 6.5!
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maggi, Lose a ski on a 45 degree + slope and you're going to be worrying about much more important things than your knee. As in, you'll likely keep falling 'til you either get to the bottom, or hit a rock.
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Unless you are a hucking cliffs or racing I cannot understand why your din would need to be much higher than the chart. For the majority of people the chart should be right but the forward pressure needs to be right also.
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theyve been conducting a study in france where theyve lowered all the settings by 1 and then compile and compare the frequency/seriousness of accidents. havent seen the results yet.
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kevindonkleywood, I guess that depends on weather they believe you or not Cool

Personally I usually have my bindings set at 7 or there abouts though I could according to the charts go up to around a 9 or even 10, by the guide of 1/10th your weight in KG you would find hardly any bindings that suit my weight, I have 7 selected because these days I'm generally happy to cruise around pistes at fairly low speeds, so treat my settings as if I'm a level 2 skier, however on a good day under the right circumstances I can ski as if I'm a level 3 or even 3+ skier, strangely it is very rare for me to fall at high speed, think I've only had one high speed fall in the last 10 years or more, very low speed on the other hand, when distracted or even stationary and admiring the view occurs at least once per ski trip so having a low setting is more appropriate for me wink
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The charts are too high for me (6, less 1 for being an old bint). I set at 4 and never get pre-release - even after an awkward fall off piste at the EOSB one ski came off but the other didn't and ithe ski and my leg ended up stuck underneath me and it took 2 people to "rescue" me. I'm going to take them down to 3.5 for next season.
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I'm confused: I thought I understood DIN settings, but what do you guys mean by the 'forward pressure' setting Puzzled

[I've never thought much about bindings/DIN - usually fill out the form at Snow + Rock, give 'em the skis/boot and let them get on with it - so forgive my ignorance!]

edited for grammar!
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This is interesting, as my understanding of the DIN was that it was worked out on your weight/height and ability, and not just on weight alone. Being one of life's plumper pixies my DIN would be (ahem Embarassed ) 8 or 9. Which makes for fun when you are trying to get skis off at end of the day/getting onto gondolas.


We still rent skis and so go through this q&a session every time we hire. In all the years we have done this, this March was the first ever time we had to sign some paperwork in the hire shop related directly to the DIN settings. We had to stand on some mad machine thing and the assistant pressed some buttons about us and our ski skills and we both then got a little printed ticket we had to sign. Any other time we've just had the skis set up and off you go. We usually hire through the bigger franchises.

So, my question would be, have I just been lucky to not have had some knee wrenching catastrophe?

Discuss.
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MarjMJ, If you are a 'plump pixie' the Din should be set according to your height as a starting point.
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MarjMJ, it's calculated on weight, height, age, ability and BSL (boot sole lenght).
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MarjMJ wrote:
This is interesting, as my understanding of the DIN was that it was worked out on your weight/height and ability, and not just on weight alone.
Discuss.


Not quite right. Another vital thing is the boot size, the bigger the boot the lower the setting (greater leverage). Also its not ability but style, you can be an expert with a smooth style or an intermediate hooligan.
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MarjMJ, There is a variant of the DIN scale that uses tibia head (knee) width instead of height combined with weight and boot sole length. I suspect that this version may work better for women.
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It all depends on what I'm skiing. I'm only 140lbs so I don't like the DIN to be above 8 or 9 when I'm skiing inbounds at Mammoth. There just isn't terrain where I need the ski to stay on at all costs. However, when I'm skiing a DFU line in the BC, I'll max out my Dynafits at 10 + locked toe and put Dukes up in the 13-14 range. At my weight, no ski is really going to release at those settings, and I'd rather have a torn-up knee then one ski. However, I do ski much more carefully with the DIN up so high (and being in the BC).
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abj wrote:
I'm confused: I thought I understood DIN settings, but what do you guys mean by the 'forward pressure' setting Puzzled

[I've never thought much about bindings/DIN - usually fill out the form at Snow + Rock, give 'em the skis/boot and let them get on with it - so forgive my ignorance!]

edited for grammar!


Ski bindings need to set to fit the length of the boot sole.

When you set the forward pressure you are ensuring that the boot will click into the binding correctly - not too tight or loose.

If the forward pressure is wrong then a din of 5 might behave as if it was set at 7 (if set too tight) or 3 (if set too loose) for example.
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Thanks to alll.
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holidayloverxx, ...another very interesting post...

my own interest in this started in the late 1980's when I had a DIN tension, set by in-resort hire shops, which seemed way too high (7-Cool. I argued and argued (since I had a trashed cruciate ligament) and then resorted to getting the skis and then downrating the DIN myself, then cranking back up when handing the skis back. Initially to 6.5 (no pre-release) then a few weeks later to 6 (no pre-release), then 5.5 (no pre-release, and good release in the right circumstances). I tend to be a rather 'light skier' - ie more technical and skiing by balance rather than force. 5-ish seemed right.

I used this approach for years, and then the tables came out more publicly, and lo and behold, my DIN is 5.5 in the tables. And I felt cross that the shops had been putting my ligaments at risk.

But it's just astonishing that 'cranking up' is still going on. And I can't understand the 'cranking up' for steeps. Yep, you don't want pre-release. But you are tightening your skis to a point when if you crash and burn two things are going to happen: you are going to trash your ligaments (a VERY bad thing) and you are going to be falling with skis on. Nasty. Now...OK, I use an ice axe to arrest on steeps and I don't want to be falling down something steep with nothing to stop me...but WTF would I be doing skiing something where if I fall I need to trash my body to stop? Why be somewhere beyond my skills in the first place? What was the instructor cranking up the DINs doing there in the first place (the reply a few above this), with people whose skills might not be up to it? As the extreme skiers say: '...never fall...' and they indeed don't. Stay within the envelope, and set the DIN right.

I am very interested in the French research using 1 DIN down, and also in those who have carefully downrated the settings and have matched DIN to ability and style in a sensitive way.

Know thy bindings seems to be the upshot.

ps yes...Forward pressure can be frustrating (as I mentioned previously) since different manufacturers use such different mechanisms (salomon: small window on the side on rentals; metal tab in the middle on others; markers a flush screw system; rossignol various including, it seems, magical setting on the FKS platforms...)
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Fascinating - and somewhat sobering - thread.
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abj, ...and just to complete the 'forward pressure' picture, the boot needs to click into the binding (with the correct DIN) and then open the wings of the front binding just a tiny bit.

Note ... if you are into such things, of course... on Salomon S910s and 912s, the wings are not self-adjusting to the width of the toe section, and many people have the wings too tight, which doesn't muck up the forward pressure or DIN but does put enormous pressure on the adjustment system for the wings and compromise smooth release. In these bindings a key adjustment is to open the wings right out, fit the boot and centre it by hand, and then adjust the wings until the little rubber pads are just touching the sides of the toe box. One of the five necessary set up adjustments on the bindings - sole length of fore and aft bindings, DIN, forward pressure, and toe binding height).
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