 Poster: A snowHead
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I read on Full lines web site about boots are getting clever. They flex when you need it and walk when you do. And they're still made of hard materials which connect you to the snow as closely as they ever did.
But have they changed that much in the last 15-20 years or is just hype to get us to buy new boots.
Most would say boots are your most important bit of kit, they give you control over your skis. Badly fitting boots will let the skis move around on your foot and may give the user a lot of pain in the foot. But if you had a 20 year old front entry boot and a new boot both a good fit would the new boot outperform the old boot to a noticeable level
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Yes, not least due to the degradation of the plastic in the old boot. Materials and design have evolved in that time also.
I'm sure there'll be a couple of more technical posts along soon.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Let's forget degradation of the plastic for the moment and just look at design of the boot
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Glen Charman, Yes heaps, can you post an example of a 20yr old front entry boot, i'm bring in the equivalent new model and describe the differences.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Let's forget degradation of the plastic for the moment and just look at design of the boot |
I wouldn't! (photo by Megamum of Anz boots at the SFaB)
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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How about these? Lange Tii
Full tilt are making boots based on the old Raichle flexon series. I believe that they have modified them though
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sun 24-04-11 13:36; edited 1 time in total
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I cast my mind back to a pair I once had: Dachstein V4 I think they were called.
Convention entry.
4 clip
Canting adjustable
Power strap
Had a very powerfull spring on the back of the shell with a key adjustment to vary the flex of the shell from super stiff to soft. Once set to your preference it stayed like that until you changed it.
Connected to that spring was a simple lever with a walk/ski mode.
The same device also allowed you to vary the forward lean angle of the boot when it was in the ski mode.
I had those boots 20 years ago.
SMALLZOOKEEPER, do you remember those (I know CEM does)?
Please tell me how technology has advanced from them? I honestly think that there has never been a better design in terms of functionality.
I fully understand that the modern plastics may be better, or that the foot shape may have improved, but in functionality terms those Dachsteins were unrivalled to this day I think.
I'd really welcome your thoughts...
P.S The simple tool to adjust the spring even had a bottle opener on it....now beat that!
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Full tilt are making boots based on the old Raichle flexon series. I believe that they have modified them though
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Due to wear and tear to the mould, the flexion has gained a little width in the forefoot, other than perhaps a minor change to the liners, the boot is exactly the same.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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No doubt about it & forget 15-20, I reckon it's even in the last 10 years. I'm sure touring/downhill convergence is going to be the manufacturer marketing theme in the next few years so that as soon as touring boots routinely & just as safely slip into a pure alpine binding and with no messing around with sole swapping or feeler gauges etc, pure downhill boots will be dead as dodos.
Having retired 8 year old Rossi Power Race 9.1 boots in favour of Scarpa Spirit 4's that are 1/2 the weight, more comfortable, can comfortably be walked in for long distances, have super grippy soles and ski way better than the Rossis ever did, I'll never go back to clunkies. 
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moffatross, alot of truth there if a little radical.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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One thing I've noticed with my new boots is how much lighter they are! My old ones weighed a ton.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I’m shore boot technology has moved on a long way
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A pun intended?
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Mon 25-04-11 18:57; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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Well sort of
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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My first ski boots were Cabers in 1983, followed by Salomon SX91 Equipes in 1985. This was the era of the rear entry boot. the SX91s were pretty radical in their day - customised flex, canting, walk, forefoot adjustment, heel retension, carvable inners etc. I always had boot problems as I have a very narrow heal and fairly wide forefoot, so after the SX91s were carved to death I bought a pair of Raichle Flexons in 1987. I skied this until 2007! I had a few buckles break in the time - the last one being in 2005 when I took them into the ski shop I use in France and the technician practically wet himself with excitement on seeing the boots and (even more so) actually having a replacement buckle and cable at the back of one of the drawers!
However I finally had to trade them in when the shells split. I found a shop (Lockwoods in Leamington Spa) that sold Kneissel versions of the Flexons (I think Kneissel took over Raichle's ski boot division) and had a few old pairs knocking around at bargain basement prices but when I tried them I couldn't get my feet near them! In the end (after trying on loads of boots) I settled on the Salomon Falcon Gun - and to be fair this is a good boot. Good flex, nice and light, good inner, but I still hanker after the Flexons.
In terms of the topic - have ski boots really changed? I would say at the top end, probably not that much apart from very incremental changes to materials. Advances in injection moulding mean that you can create a boot that has multiple different materials or material hardnesses in different areas (I'm a product designer by trade so this stuff interests me!). Also inner boot technology has changed in that 20 years ago the norm was a foam inner with little customisation. These days any mid range or above boot has a heat formable inner. Based on my expereince of the 20+ year old Flexons and the newish Guns I'd say the flex consistency is better. The Flexons had (and still do have) the best flex on the market, but they were prone to stiffening up in colder conditions and sofening up in warming conditions. The Solomons don't do that - they are pretty consistent.
The one area that has definately changed is the boot industrial design. far more emphasis is placed on product graphics and market segmentation now. Again this is down to materials and finishing technology. 20 years ago the norm was a single coloured boot with maybe a bit of text screened on. Ultimately this does not affect the fit of the boot but it does affect sales - stand in any ski shop in the winter months and listen to the banter - "I really like that bright purple boot with the reflective graphics...".
I think like anything else, you probably get more for your money now that 20 years ago.
Having said that I am still searching for the ultimate boot. That which I can fasten up at the start of the day and leave until the end without constant adjustment! The boot makers still have a way to go before they achieve this.
In my case the first couple of days of a holiday are usually agony after a few hours skiing - necessitating taking the boots off for ten mins! The next 10 days are usually fine, and the last few days I usually have to crank up the buckles to get a decent fit.
Ultimately the fit of the boot is what matters, not the age, make or colour! But the single most critical thing I have found in boot fit is getting yourself a pair of customised footbeds (Sidas for example). If you do keep your boots a long time, replacing the footbeds can make them last a bit longer and enhance the fit.
Some people also swear by foam inners. I'm not sure myself. I did have a pair done once but they were like skiing in bricks (this was in the 80s right enough). A racer friend of mine once said foam inners were really only good when you wanted to tighten your boots up so tight you would normally cut off all circulation to your feet in standard inners. Got to say most instructors I know don't use foam inners anymore.
What I'd like to see in the modern boot are:
1. better ski and walk mode with binding integration (why can't the ski mode only activate when you step into the binding?) As I get older I find the constant angle of even a non racing boot like the Gun to be a bit much when you are crammed into a cable car queue for 30 mins!
2. Easier entry - this is an area where boots have reversed - the Salomons SX91s were great for this.
3. Wider range of fits. If you have standard medium width feet you are fine. If you have wide feet all over you are fine. If you have narrow feet all over you are fine. But if you have narrow heels and wide forefoot and high arches you are destined to suffer! There is no technical reason why a shell cannot be designed to accommodate more feet shapes - it all comes down to money - mould tools are expensive so you are left with the average.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Quote:
Full tilt are making boots based on the old Raichle flexon series. I believe that they have modified them though
Due to wear and tear to the mould, the flexion has gained a little width in the forefoot, other than perhaps a minor change to the liners, the boot is exactly the same.
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From a technical mould making standpoint wear and tear on the mould cores would tend to have the effect of narrowing the fit.....I would expect the Full Tilt have had new mould cores made up and maybe kept the original cavity blocks. In any case I'll get around to trying these at some point!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I think the perfect boot would be V4+Zipfit+Footbed
Assuming V4 shell shape is appropriate to your foot that is.
Anybody know what general foot shape they are best for?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Megamum,
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and policepeoples feet?
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very PC
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Forgetting about the technology for a second, boot fitting seems to be far better these days. As I remember things in the 80s you had a straight choice between comfort or a close fit. These two basic parameters were mutually exclusive. At least for your average recreational skier, there was no such thing as a professional boot fitter. Or maybe that's just because I was a teenager living in Manchester?
Anyway over the years I've owned several pairs of boots notably including classics such as SX90s and Nordica 980s, but I can confidently say that my current pair of Sally Falcons are by far the best fitting and most comfortable boots that I've ever owned. While their basic concept is identical to my 80's Nordicas, in practice they are in a totally different league. Skis have changed far more in concept though over the same time frame.
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Has anybody tried the new full tilt boot are they as good as the old one and how do they compare to the new generation of boot 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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altis,Didn’t realise there was the two different type I guess the original 3 piece are much the same as the old one so what are the influence 3 piece like in comparison
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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altis,Yeap mntlion sum it up well
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Yes.
Dynafit TLT 5 Performance boot is a very light touring boot with downhill alpine performance.
If it fits your shape of foot, then it's a massive advancement IMHO.
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You know it makes sense.
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Mike Pow, it's a good boot, but that's a bit OTT.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I take it you like yours then, Mike Pow?
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Poster: A snowHead
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altis, It's a frickin awesome boot, best of it's kind by miles, a little low in the cuff for proper alpine lever work, but so simple, clever and light, great shape too.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Yer, I fondled a pair in Pralognan earlier this year and they look fantastic. In fact there were many pairs about as they were running the Transvanoise the same weekend. Just a bit worried by the short cuff compared with the Flexons. My right leg always wants to slide out of the top of even them.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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altis, This is to become an issue I feel. Economy is calling for cost reduction, thus reduction in Manufacturing costs mean reducing tooling costs. In most cases the coller on ski boots is to fit 2 complete sizes, (4) if you count half sizes. Many new editions, ie new moulds are now splitting that into three, way to lean IMO. there are boots out there now that have the same height if you are 26/27/28 clog (lower shell.) this means a sweet lever in 26 but an ankle boot if you are 28. It's too much, watch out for them, this boot, the TLT 5 isn't one however, it's just short by design.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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^
That Dynafit boot looks like it's got too many compromises to be truly versatile. Tongues that you are expected to remove for the uphill (I'd just lose them at the bottom of he hill), only 2 ratchet points etc (may be fine on day 1 but I'm sure even the best liners pack in odd places in time). It looks great for competitors & weight weenies but not for a long term one boot does it all resort & touring.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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moffatross, It is surprisingly good, liners correspond to foot shape vs volume in boot, for everyone who skis them loose, there will be someone that skis them tight. The removable tongue was my question too, but if you loose them, then i guess you could say the same for anything in your backpack/pocket. They ski incredibly well, yes they are a lightweight touring boot, but all considered, they are a massive evolution, never the twain shall meet, Ski/Touring, but hey this is awesome given the brief. Compared to what people skied 10, even 5 years ago, you now have a very skiable lightweight boot. The product is better, the market has changed. But let's not get carried away here, a real Alpine Freeride boot this isn't but it isn't pretending to be, it's a lightweight touring boot that skis really really well.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Ski boots today are lighter, tighter and shinier.
But bootfitting remains a junk science. Still based more on educated guesswork than hard facts.
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Whitegold, what sort of hard facts are you after laddie?
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I suppose you could probably take fMRIs of your feet in the boots...you'd need a specially built spectrometer though as most of the ones around now aren't meant to be stood up in as far as I know.
It might be a bit expensive.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I did a project some years ago doing retail 3D laser scanning of feet - total flop! Foot fit is so personal and has so many different factors that it will always need time and trial and error. The important thing is to try to match the core boot to your foot shape as near as possible, then tweak the fit with customised insoles and other fitting aids. Even then it is an ongoing adjustment as the boot wears in (and sometimes they wear in too fast and the fit goes).
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FAQ
