 Poster: A snowHead
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I know a fair few of people use heel lifts in their boots to "open" their ankle.
But, won't this increase the delta angle of the boot and so move their weight back?
And, would it be get really screwy if you just used a lift in one boot?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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If without a heel lift there is a flexion issue, it will be difficult to get your weight forward and use the boot as designed, shifting pressure to the rear foot and opening the ankle joint will allow you to better distribute the pressure where needed and stop too much forward weight transfer. Using one heel lift is often the case, however for leg length or other such natural unbalanced issues.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Mosha Marc, changes inside and outside the boot do different things, whilst adding a heel lift increases the ramp angle of the boot internally it also decreases the net forward lean angle thus "opening" the ankle joint as discussed... another thing that can be done is to raise the toes of the boot externally either with a plate on the toe of the boot or one under the toe piece of the binding, this reduces the effective binding delta and starts the leg in a more upright position, we have done this a good few times with some of the racers we work with as it is not possible to lift the heel inside the boot due to FIS height regulations, it allows them to pressurise the front of the ski easier in turn initiation
as Steve has said above a single lift is generally only used for leg length discrepencies or similar
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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We?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, yes "we" as a company, you know a legal entity in business
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| If without a heel lift there is a flexion issue.......... |
Say, for the sake of argument, there wasn't a flexion issue - wouldn't it move weight back?
I think I'm just looking at the side effects of using a lift.
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there is more to consider than simply a heel lift in the boot, a 3mm lift for example would have very little effect on the bodies position, a 9mm would have a far greater effect...then you need to consider the original ramp angle of the boot and then the delta angle of the binding, this is affected not only by the binding model but by the size of the boot, if for example the heel of the binding sits 4mm higher than the toe with a long boot 27, 28 or more then a very shallow angle is created, if the boot is small 22, 23 etc then the angle created is much steeper and the effect much greater
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CEM, I see your points.
So, say we have a boot that's been balanced for the user and the binding heights have been altered to get the delta/ramp combo just right for the user.
What happens if you lift the heel by 5mm in a 27 shell 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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inside or outside the shell?
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Inside.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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ok so the time delay was as i phyically tested the angles on a boot to give you acurate information
rossignol radical world cup 130 size 27.5 shell 316mm standard ramp angle is 3degrees (boot placed on a leveled surface with a 2 pin gauge placed on the base board at the furthest back and forward points possible)
adding 5mm of material onto the base board at the heel increased this ramp angle to 4.9 degrees so an increase of 1.9 degrees
the increase of this amount will open the ankle slighty by reducing the net forward lean but will have little or no effect on the bodies ability to balance fore aft as this amount can be easily absorbed
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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change the record Steve, you are becoming tedious
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You know it makes sense.
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CEM, Didn't think you were paying any attention. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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For the interested onlooker, please describe 'heel lift' in the context of this thread. When I bought my boots the fitter placed a spacer under my heel to help the boot close around the bottom of my calf, as the boot then fitted to a lower point on the calf. Is this type of lift the same as you are discussing please?
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Poster: A snowHead
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yes but being used for a different purpose
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Tedious, like reading stuff written elsewhere then seeing it practically cut and pasted over here, that's tedious, disappointing and a little misrepresentative. But hey if that's what you're into. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, please give me and the rest of the world examples of what you mean, where it has come from and where it is, because right now i must be so blinkered that i can't see it
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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what amazes me is you never seem to have this argument over on epic ski...is that prehaps that you are outnumbered over there and people will fight back
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Fig 1. CEM and SMALLZOOKEEPER, yesterday.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Mr Technique, XX
CAP
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You don't need eyes to see, you need vision.
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I enjoy the forum EPIC, especially the exchanges I can have with my peers across the ocean, they provoke and challenge things and it's a great place to exchange ideas and protocol, for with those i can discuss and expand my perspective, after all they have opinions of their own.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Mosha Marc, Anyhoo, it's a pretty standard procedure in these here parts, very few boots of any type go away without some modification to internal/external angles. It's often a bit hit and miss to start, taking the client from one extreme to another to find the start point then it's just fine tuning the wedge angle to sit them as close to balanced and neutral as they feel works best for them, an enjoyable process and seems to be the big issue after boot shape and foodbed fabrication, give it a whirlllllly whirllyy.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER / Steve,
I have a question.
If a boot-fitter charged around €400 to refit a boot (e.g. A Garmont Adrenaline touring boot) promising it to be better than new but at the end didn't deliver and instead blamed it on the skier's arthritis (which the bootfitter knew about before); should the customer be entitled to a refund? (full or part) especially if the boot fitter had the audacity to recommend another boot-fitter once he didn't come up with a solution?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| DB wrote: |
| If a boot-fitter charged around €400 to refit a boot |
 I'd just kick his Ferrari
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, CEM, thanks for your input.
I don't look at Epic much these days, but a lift had been suggested for me as a fix for another type of issue. I was sceptical then and still am.
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DB, I would. Although hope i'd never get myself in a position to charge anyone 400 euros for a refit, crazy.
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You know it makes sense.
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Mosha Marc, It's not a permanent thing, so you can fiddle around with it a bit, worth a try mate.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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DB, Did it include footbed and new liner?? Maybe a couple of other additions???
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Poster: A snowHead
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| DB wrote: |
SMALLZOOKEEPER / Steve,
I have a question.
If a boot-fitter charged around €400 to refit a boot (e.g. A Garmont Adrenaline touring boot) promising it to be better than new but at the end didn't deliver and instead blamed it on the skier's arthritis (which the bootfitter knew about before); should the customer be entitled to a refund? (full or part) especially if the boot fitter had the audacity to recommend another boot-fitter once he didn't come up with a solution? |
Ooh this sounds good...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| DB, Did it include footbed and new liner?? Maybe a couple of other additions??? |
As far as I am aware it included the full works - e.g. footbed, new liner, punching out the shell etc. I'll have to ask my friend for the details and get back to you.
Glad you believe he is entitled to some sort of refund, I'm sure a good boot fitter would do such a thing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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DB, IMO a good boot fitter would have started over for 400 euros, kept the old shell back and tried to resell it for his client to bring it all together.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
DB, IMO a good boot fitter would have
started over for 400 euros, kept the old shell back and tried to resell it for his client to bring it all together. |
I suspect they started trying to cure the problem and after multiple visits the cost stacked up. He now has a new boot (much wider) from another bootfitter which works much better but he still suffers from blisters while touring. I've sent my friend an email to get more details.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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That's one wide foot or one poor fitter that can't get the right sized Adrenaline to fit.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER,
Just got this back from my friend ......
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| ........ he charged me 380 Euros he heated and put the boot back to the original shape, new liners which I still use and new foot beds. I went back to have them adjusted the next day and then the next day but then he said my problems were too severe due to the rumatoid arthritis and that he could do no more for me. He recommended a place in the midlands which I think may be the same company but not sure. |
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DB, Doesn't sound too bad there to be honest, the price sounds about right if new liners and footbeds were used, the arthritis issue is so personal that it would be hard to comment further. If indeed the fitter is right and the problem is really serious, bordering on disabled then i'd say he's done the right thing from start to finish, given that the products are all re-useable, sounds fair.
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So a bootfitter promises the earth takes €380 and then tries to pass him onto another bootfitter back in the UK (probably Lockwoods) - you call that fair?
Says a lot for resort bootfitters doesn't it?
The guy covered over 7000m altitude with me last week ski touring in a pair of touring boots another boot fitter selected and fitted for him, hardly disabled.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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DB,
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DB, wow that sounds a bit rough 
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FAQ
