 Poster: A snowHead
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The remaining ~15 skiable Alpine glaciers in France, Austria, Germany, Switzerland and perhaps Italy are going to take a battering this Summer season from May to September 2011.
Below-average snowfall in Winter and above-average temps in Spring will cause a messy Summer.
This could be the worst Summer for the Alpine glaciers since 2003.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Whitegold, Do you know the summer weather then?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Only 15 ? I thought there were more than that ?
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Germany?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Zugspitze has a glacier on it Germany, up above garmisch.
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Whitegold - I think you're right. Even if its not the hottest summer the lack of major snow this winter will mean the glaciers take a battering. I was in Engelberg last summer and one of the cablecar operators was saying the reduction in the titlis glacier was incredible, and that after 2 really long winters.
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Agree, doesn't look good.
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Ricklovesthepowder, Garmisch no longer open in the summer - they cover as much of it as they can to reduce the rate of melt.
I think we could see at least one of the Sölden galciers closed for part of the summer and maybe the Kitzsteinhorn as well. I skied on the Kitzsteinhorn on 11th October 2010 and was horrified how much it had retreated in the past few years.
If it is a hot dry summer I think we will see more glaciers closed over the summer months.
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Samerberg Sue, Agree about the Kitzsteinhorn. I wasn't out there last summer but IIRC it was closed by August in '09 as there was not enough piste-able snow to complete any of the runs to the uplifts.
I can live with that, as long as it comes back in Autumn 
Off topic but I feel next winter will be seminal in the European Alps, for weather and economic reasons?
Anyone have any thoughts?
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Main thought is that you haven't really explained why you think that so it's hard to comment sensibly.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I'm not so sure it will be that bad for all glaciers.
Here's why .......
1. Up until end of Jan in Austria snowfall was not that bad and above circa 3000m most of it has remained. e.g. I was up at 3800m last week and the crevases were well filled in.
2. Sölden had a good year for snow i.e. peaked at 3m+ with 2.5m remaining at the moment.
3. Mölltaler glacier still has 3m+ snow.
4. Last year we had a wet summer which resulted in rain at very high levels. I doubt we will see this two years in a row.
Of course it all depends on how the weather is in summer .......
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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nozawaonsen, Fair point. Also should have said could be seminal as opposed to will be.
I can only really comment on Austria but I don't think the rest of the Alps will be significantly different. Weather-wise they have not had a bumper snow year since 05/06. 08/09 has probably been the best from memory and IMHO all of them have been adequate at best, apart from the beginning of 06/07 and the end of this season.
I had two weeks in January that started in horrible weather but tbh ended up great overall. I had planned another week but was holding off for a bargain until I heard that the snow conditions had started to deteriorate. I'd decided by early March that it wasn't going to happen.
At present I am trying to decide whether to book for New Year. Apart from what it costs I am mainly worried about what next season will bring in terms of snow? What bothers me is that i've never really worried or even given much thought about that before at this stage, I've just booked it and taken what I got.
So, why am I thinking like that, and, as I am, are others?
Economics-wise. I am honestly baulking at the cost of New Year. It is just becoming far too damn expensive! Its not an affordability issue but just a feeling that Im not getting my moneys worth anymore?
The resort I know best is Zell am See and even the vested interests there are admitting that this year wasn't great with the majority of weeks under-occupied. Even the ski schools were allegedly literally fighting each other for clients and many of the instructors were paid off early with only the old stagers and locals getting work to the end of the season.
I spent a week in Saalbach and a week in Zell in January and both were absolutely dead, by day and by night.
Again if I am thinking that way, are others?
If its not just me thats thinking these things and if the weather gods decide not to play then it could just be the beginning of... well big changes to say the least 
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The French mountain ranges currently have the worst snow cover ever recorded during April.
It is better up top than down low, but still not great.
Val d'Isere, Tignes and Les 2 Alpes glaciers are surely going to be vulnerable this Summer.
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You know it makes sense.
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I looked at the European glaciers on google Earth recently (it shows them in the summer) and you really get to see the extent of the retreat in recent times, Kitzeinhorn in particular is a shocker.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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The Glaciers are the last of the last Ice Age
They will melt
They will melt faster as they get smaller
Fact.
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Poster: A snowHead
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The first summer we spent time out in the alps was 2003, the year of the canicule when lots of people died in Paris and French Ministers had their summer holidays messed up. That year, Mont Blanc looked horribly naked, with nothing but the glaciers (we did a week's French course that summer with someone who had lived here for years, and he said he'd never seen it like that before). I understand that the French authorities "closed the mountain", because of the very dangerous conditions I suppose, which meant that lots of people whose summer livelihood (or holidays) depended on the mountains had to find something else to do.
That was mainly because of summer temperatures, though 2001/02 was not an epic winter for snow, either (we stayed in Courchevel 1650 in January 2002 and snow throughout the 3 Valleys was very thin).
I suppose that such occurrences which just become more frequent. 
Looking on the bright side, alpine resorts are the place to be when temperatures in the valleys are untenable; Albertville was grim.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Guernseyfreerider, Just looked at the Kitz as you suggested.  I wonder if that was the period in summer 2009 that I mentioned above?
If you zoom to the top of the pistes and level with the funicular in you can see 5 Piste bashers parked in a row with nothing to bash!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Guernseyfreerider, pictures in Google Earth are never up to date. The ones showing my house for example are at least 8 years old as they do not show recent developments in and around my village. we can more or less date them by the activity shown on the pictures. The ones showing now were taken around 2001/2002.
robboj, The actual facts are as Boredsurfing so succinctly states.: they are remnants from the last Ice Age and they are melting, just as they have done for the past 8,0000 plus years. The rate of melting will also increase as the influence of the remnant ice to maintain its own micro-climate declines. You only need to look at the manner in which an ice cube melts to see this happen. The last bit disappears in no time at all!
The increase in ablation is often exacerbated by the accumulation of darker freeze-thaw debris on the surface of the ice increasing the heat effect during sunny days. This is what shocked me last Autumn when I visited the glacier - I had not seen so much debris on the surface before, indicating that the freeze-thaw cycle in and around the glacier was extremely active last summer (a particularly cool and wet one!). It is also one of the reasons that the Zugspitze glacier is covered in the summer. Some of the debris comes from the exposed rock faces around the ice and some accumulates from within the ice itself and is left on or near the surface as the ice melts. Whatever the source it all helps to increase ablation rates at the snout as well as along the surface of the main ice flows.
Glacial geomorphology was one of my fields in my physical geology studies many many moons ago 
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robboj, off topic but, 05/06 was very good for snow. 06/07 was bad.
07/08, 08/09 were both notable for heavy early snow in parts of the Alps. I think "adequate at best" might be underselling rather. 09/10 started very cold, was fine after that, but not especially outstanding. But I remember all three as being fine.
In terms of being worried about what next season might bring. Its simply impossible to say at this stage. And certainly no reason to think that even if there were a long term trend that it would be linear (ie that poor snow this year, means that the direction of travel will mean poor snow next year).
In terms of economics Osterreich was reporting Austrian ski areas expecting up to a 3% drop on the year before (though it's not completely clear what this figure actually refers to). Planet Ski was reporting Zell am Zee was experiencing 9% growth year on year in mid February. Certainly there is quite a bit of investment going into some resorts, with big spending for example in the Arlberg on lift infrastructure over the last few years, a large new Mooserwirt hotel opening next season as well as at least one new hotel going up in town and some of the businesses on that site relocating elsewhere. So a mixed economic picture I would imagine. For the UK ski market of course the euro has a big impact (as well as the general economic downturn).
So yes I suppose next year could see some big changes, it could also not. That said I would imagine there will be some further casualties in an industry that like everyone else has had to manage the economic downturn and then has probably had a tougher year (especially spring) when probably what it needed was a strong year.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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It's just as well the glaciers are retreating. There used to be a mile or so of ice sitting on East Kilbride. (Though some people have been heard to say that's not altogether a bad thing.
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The Glacier in Saas has retreated quite considerably in the last 10 years including some large break offs last season.
2 years ago the Glacier was in great conditions during the summer, but last year was terrible until August and then it turned to wonderful conditions for a week or so.
Sadly Glaciers are retreating its a fact of life lets enjoy them while they are there
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| Quote: |
lets enjoy them while they are there
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it's a bit sad to think of the last pathetic years of the glaciers - strewn with debris, shrinking faster year by year, a shadow of their fomer magnificent years when they sculpted mountains. they'll be like those horrid springtime heaps outside alpine villages, where the surplus snow is shovelled over a cliff somewhere.
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Samerberg Sue, which makes it even scarier that those pics were taken in 2001/2002. In both of those years I was skiing Tignes in July on a summercamp and we did a lot of skiing on the T bar just to the right of where chair from val claret goes to. In the height of summer there was comfortably over 2000 ft vertical. When I went back in november those t bars were obselete the glacier had taken such a hammering. I have to confess to having a bit of a glacier obsession they are amazing things.
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pam w, It certainly does they are incredible wonders of nature and I love sitting at the bottom of the Glacier in Saas in the summer and just watching it
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Guernseyfreerider, I used the example of my house - we reckon by looking at the development around our village as shown in the pictures that the pictures of our village, and therefore our house, that the pictures of our area date from sometime in either 2001 or 2002. That may not be the same for everywhere. I live in what is called in German ADW (Arsch der Welt) aka back of beyond, so of absolutely no significance whatsoever! So our photos are not often updated. There are almost 3 new house built near us now and none of them show!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Samerberg Sue,
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The actual facts are as Boredsurfing so succinctly states.: they are remnants from the last Ice Age and they are melting, just as they have done for the past 8,0000 plus years. The rate of melting will also increase as the influence of the remnant ice to maintain its own micro-climate declines. You only need to look at the manner in which an ice cube melts to see this happen. The last bit disappears in no time at all!
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Yep, why is there so much discussion/surprise about glaciers melting?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Boredsurfing, research papers? 
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Samerberg Sue, You're right. I looked at Zell and noticed that the water reservoir they built just above Mittelstation is under construction and that was summer 2003. At least that explains why the glacier was in such a bad state. Looking back I was there in June 03 and it probably wasn't quite as bad then which is maybe why I didn't remember that sight.
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You know it makes sense.
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France just registered its hottest, driest Spring in living memory.
2011 is, so far, even hotter than 2003 and 2007, which were the two worst years of the Noughties that mashed up the Alpine glaciers.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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The snowfall around mont Blanc on Weds am must have helped provide a bit of protection for the summer, going as low as it did?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Fresh snow melts very quickly, I doubt whether it will have had much effect.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Agreed.
France got about 30 - 60cm of fresho this week.
To make up for the diminished Winter snowfall, France's glaciers still need about another 300cm.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Whitegold wrote: |
France just registered its hottest, driest Spring in living memory.
2011 is, so far, even hotter than 2003 and 2007, which were the two worst years of the Noughties that mashed up the Alpine glaciers. |
Quote from the article
"France has had the hottest spring in memory, according to its weather agency, with average temperatures in March-May 2.6 Celsius above the average between 1971 and 2000; and rainfall just 45% of the average over that period."
So living memory is quite selective, 1971 to 2000? Must be too much wine being drunk.
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waynos, It does mention 2003 and 2007 as 1.8 celcius and 2.1 celcius over the average.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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lightningdan, I can't see in that article any mention of 2003 or 2007? My point is taking an average over such a small range seems very pointless and misleading. No doubt it was a warm spring but the statement "warmest in living memory" isn't backed up by the given stats as living memory surely precedes 1971. Maybe they only have records starting from 1971?
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The article is crap. The spring was the warmest since 1900 and driest since 1946, which is when general records began in France (there are temperature records for places like the Paris Observatory from earlier).
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| waynos wrote: |
| lightningdan, I can't see in that article any mention of 2003 or 2007? |
Lefthand side of the article.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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About 90% of Switzerland's glaciers retreated last year, according to Swiss Info.
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