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Normal ski jacket or softshell

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Hello i have being skiing in finland the last 2 years and am going again in january . I am thinking of buyimg this softshell jacket for when i go http://www.mandmdirect.com/01/details/BE728/Berghaus-Men-Skyline-AQ2.5-Lightweight-Shell-Jacket-Black. The last two times i have gone i have worn an normal tresspass ski jacket but are to bulky for my liking . I have normally gone in febuary and last year it got to -32 but it shouldnt be so cold in january probaly -20. Will softshell jackets be worth it in these temperaters or should i stick to a normal ski jacket
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I have a softshell but would say I for one would be too cold in those temps if I was to wear that as opposed to a normal jacket. Have you looked for one of the lighter padded jackets? I bought a new one last year and found a lot were less padded so you could layer up underneath to make yourself comfortable at the right temperature to suit you.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Thanks i will have a look , i normally have 3 layers including jacket so i might try putting long johns and thermals underneath and then if not go with a normal jacket . Them goretex jackets look like a hybrid between a normal ski jacket and a softshell
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That jacket isn't a soft shell, it's a thin waterproof shell. I've a similar one by HH, I wouldn't want to wear it skiing.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Stick a fleece underneath it and you'll be good to go. Pretty much what I wore for my few few ski trips.

It ain't a softshell or an insulated jacket, but on the other hand you'll find both the fleece and the shell a bit more useful when you're not skiing.
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Think about it for a moment and you'll soon realise that there is no point in having a waterproof shell when the temperature is well below zero. All you need is a windproof. Something like a Pertex windshirt will be perfectly adequate - if a little unfashionable. A hardshell will keep the wind out but also your sweat in - making you damper and colder.

For something more fashionable look for a true softshell made of, for example, Schoeller Dryskin. This stretchy fabric does not contain a membrane and breathes well.

Use lots of layers of stretchy fleece, for example, Maulden Mills' Polartec Powerstretch inside to keep you warm. Alternatively, something made of pile. They used to use Javlin pile jackets on Everest.


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Fri 16-11-12 9:48; edited 1 time in total
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Soft shells are cold.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
http://www.mandmdirect.com/01/details/BE666/Berghaus-Mens-Sella-Gore-Windstopper-Soft-Shell-Jacket-Black . Is this any better i would prefer berghaus as i quite like the brand . It says is windproof
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I wouldn't fancy just wearing a softshell in those temperatures and I like it cold Shocked
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it's really difficult to advise, everyone is different, I have a friend who seriously doesn't feel the cold, he could (and does) quite happily Ski in jeans, a shirt and a softshell (he hardly ever falls, which helps), as has been said, waterproof isn't an issue unless you're Austria where it seems to f'ng rain all the time. Myself, I really feel the cold, so I need a base layers (legs and torso), good salopettes, a fleece and a jacket.

I suppose what I am really saying is you have to do what works for you.
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Okay thanks
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Cynic wrote:
Soft shells are cold.


That's an odd statement. There's no shortage of very warm softshells out there... Montane Extreme and Resolute, Buffalo, Rab Vapour-rise Guide, anything in Powershield Pro, Patagonia Speed Ascent, etc etc. Many of those things would be a bit warm for skinning or climbing in the Alps, but they'd be fine for less energetic activities (though it might be a bit chilly if you were just standing around).

But even beyond that, if you stick thermals and a high loft fleece or thick fibre pile underneath simple windproofs or stretch-weave softshells (or indeed hard shells) you'll be warm into pretty low temperatures, especially if you're staying active.
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Some "soft shells" are a "soft" and "hard" shell combined i.e. they are made of softshell material but also have a Goretex membrane or similar. These are warmer than than a normal hard shell (without thermal lining) but not as warm as a ski jacket with thermal lining. A soft shell with goretex lining (or similar) and adequate thermal layers underneath is fine and more flexible. What is adequate depends on the person and the weather. A ski jacket reduces the number of layers required but can prove too warm for certain people in certain weather conditions (e.g. Spring).
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Windstopper: the spawn of the devil. Looks like a soft shell yet is LESS breathable than many GoreTex hardshell fabrics. Dress in that and you will be cold.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
altis wrote:
Windstopper: the spawn of the devil. Looks like a soft shell yet is LESS breathable than many GoreTex hardshell fabrics. Dress in that and you will be cold.


Shouldn't be less breathable, as far as I'm aware it's just an older goretex membrane, but with the pores stretched a bit wider, and without the protective pu layer (so it was to be washed more to prevent the pores clogging up with body oils and allowing water ingress).
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Hard shell for me, and I adjust the layers to suit the temperatures.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I have a Berghaus Extreme softshell thats about five years old but only worn about ten times. I have a trade account with Berghaus and bought it sight unseen and it is just a little too tight - I thought I might loose the excess pounds but that has happened. Its large, black schoeler fabric and yours for £50 inc P&P if its the right size if you want it?
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Sportpursuit has some wicked soft shells from mountain hardwear, craghoppers and bergson at the mo, I snapped one up myself, if you can be bothered with the long postage time they are good quality and dirt cheap!
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Tomo54 wrote:
Sportpursuit has some wicked soft shells from mountain hardwear, craghoppers and bergson at the mo, I snapped one up myself, if you can be bothered with the long postage time they are good quality and dirt cheap!
Thanks might try that
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Maybe I'm being particularly dumb, but it seems like there are lots of different definitions of what a 'soft shell' jacket is?

I popped into Snow & Rock today and asked to look at their soft shell jackets, and got shown what I would call a hard shell waterproof.

I usually ski in Paradiski around Christmas time with the kids. The weather has generally been ok in the last few years, with a day of white-out, and the rest being sunny or overcast. It's not too cold, even up at the top of the mountain, and I tend to overheat/sweat quite easily. Currently using a Dynastar jacket I picked up in TKMaxx a few years ago, and thinking about upgrading. For me, I don't honestly care what you call it - but what I want is:

1. Something not too bulky - hate waddling around like a penguin. Plus I ski with a backpack carrying various bits and pieces (camera, spare gloves, kendall mint cake, water, and whatever the kids don't want to carry).

2. Something breathable/ventable. As ever, the challenge is in not overheating while skiing, but then not freezing while sitting on exposed chair lifts.

3. Something that is reasonably waterproof should we get caught up in a white-out. I have a softshell from Jack Wolfskin, but it's not what I would call waterproof in the slightest (especially along the shoulders).

4. Minor point would be to have those extra lycra bits at the end of the sleeves that slip around my thumb - since I'm often taking gloves off to get stuff out of the backpack, help the kids, etc. - it's nice to have even a thin layer stopping the wind going up my arm when they are off.

Every manufacturer seems to use different terms and it's a bug to work out how to compare them all.

I'm looking to spend up to about £250 The HH Alpha Jacket looked great (breathable, stretchy, etc.), but was missing those lycra hand bits (is there a proper name for them?). Also looked at this: http://www.blacks.co.uk/clothing/men/jackets-and-outershell/ski-jackets/product/061551/Protest-Mens-Eagle-Board-Jacket.html?attribute=15648735 - which seemed to tick all the boxes, but never heard of the brand before.

Any hints and tips on reading product descriptions? Any recommendations? Any good ski product review web sites out there?

thanks

S
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SpiderJ wrote:
Maybe I'm being particularly dumb, but it seems like there are lots of different definitions of what a 'soft shell' jacket is?


Blame the marketers. Back in the day it used to mean heavy, non-membrane stretch-weave fabrics like Schoeller dryskin. Not waterproof, but pretty windproof and fast drying, and aimed at ice climbers out in cold, dry weather. Now it generally means "expensive new jacket with stretch fabric" and not much more.

SpiderJ wrote:
4. Minor point would be to have those extra lycra bits at the end of the sleeves that slip around my thumb - since I'm often taking gloves off to get stuff out of the backpack, help the kids, etc. - it's nice to have even a thin layer stopping the wind going up my arm when they are off.


Hand or wrist gaiters, I believe they're called (and sometimes just 'thumb loop'). You could make do with some thin liner gloves and do up the cuff over the top? Works for me. A mid or baselayer with thumb holes would also do the job. Not all manufacturers actually fess up to having them in their product descriptions, irritatingly... searching on the web reveals reviews and retailers who are a bit more helpful.

SpiderJ wrote:
I'm looking to spend up to about £250 The HH Alpha Jacket looked great (breathable, stretchy, etc.), but was missing those lycra hand bits (is there a proper name for them?). Also looked at this: http://www.blacks.co.uk/clothing/men/jackets-and-outershell/ski-jackets/product/061551/Protest-Mens-Eagle-Board-Jacket.html?attribute=15648735 - which seemed to tick all the boxes, but never heard of the brand before.


Looks okay. Its an insulated hardshell, and I much prefer shell (hard/soft/wind) plus fleece on account of it being better in almost every way except speed of changing but to each their own.

Have a look at the Outdoor Research Alibi jacket. Might do the job, and you may well find it on sale for well under your budget. There are a handful of US and Canadian brands that don't often make it across the atlantic who might be worth a look. Flylow and Westcomb make some nice bits of kit.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Goretex soft shells have the added advantage of being able to be used year round; why have a jacket that you only use for the winter months.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
They are both "shells" because they are uninsulated and go over layers. In a way they are both "soft" and you can roll both in a tight tube and stick in your backpack, so it's confusing sometimes what people mean referring to soft shells. Soft shell are typically made to be windproof, but they are not weather proof. when it snows you are likely to get wet and cold. Hard shell are typically made of GTX or similar weather-proof material and will be sealed. If you layer properly you shouldn't be cold even at colder temperatures like we had last year.
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never summer wrote:
when it snows you are likely to get wet and cold


Not in my experience. Perhaps in heavy, wet snow or sleet around freezing it might be a problem, after a while. I've used both light pertex windshells and heavier stretch-weave softshells in heavy snow before and been fine. Neither will keep out even light rain for very long though.

Also, if your mid and base layers are chosen sensibly, you shouldn't get cold even if you get damp, and if you're working hard you'll dry out in good time.
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Probably with soft shells in snow, is if/when you go into a (crowded) cable car/gondola, and the snow melts...
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Well, unless you're literally covering yourself in snow and then going inside before any falls off, I still don't see a problem. It isn't like the fabric is particularly sticky to snow; brush off your shoulders and you'll only be left with a dusting and the water repellency treatment will be able to take care of that.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I have been looking at jackets trying to figure this out, without too much success unfortunately. As some stated above the terms soft, hard and shell are not well defined.
It is unlikely that the budget will stretch to jacket this year. But the one I have settled on (despite the cost) is the Arcteryx Venta SV an partially insulated, taped, windstopper 'soft shell'.
http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Softshell-Jacket-Reviews/Arcteryx-Venta-SV.
There are some other reviews of this not being a hard shell, but being fairly bullet proof, but if there is torrential rain I won't be skiing in it.
Has anyone ever skied in one of these jackets? I know Arcteryx has a good reputation.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Serriadh, Well, I would rather not take a chance. I like my powder days first lift to last and when it snows prefer to quit because my legs are shot not because I am cold:) Also if you fall in powder so that you need to dig yourself out you will prefer wearing something waterproof. It's not that we are getting lot of dry snow in this part of the world. When it's dumping the snow often has high water content. To me GTX shell is indispensable, but of course on most regular ski days soft shell will suffice.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Serriadh wrote:
Well, unless you're literally covering yourself in snow and then going inside before any falls off, I still don't see a problem. It isn't like the fabric is particularly sticky to snow; brush off your shoulders and you'll only be left with a dusting and the water repellency treatment will be able to take care of that.


I've only used one softshell for skiing, a HH (true) softshell, and I did find it to be a problem in full-on puking blizzards. Also carrying skis on my shoulder caused water to seep through. Plus those days where it's raining at the bottom but snowing up top (I get this fairly frequently as I live at about 800m).

Great for most normal conditions, brilliant in Spring, but I wouldn't want one as my sole jacket for all conditions.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
wakkitt wrote:
I have been looking at jackets trying to figure this out, without too much success unfortunately. As some stated above the terms soft, hard and shell are not well defined.
It is unlikely that the budget will stretch to jacket this year. But the one I have settled on (despite the cost) is the Arcteryx Venta SV an partially insulated, taped, windstopper 'soft shell'.
http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Softshell-Jacket-Reviews/Arcteryx-Venta-SV.
There are some other reviews of this not being a hard shell, but being fairly bullet proof, but if there is torrential rain I won't be skiing in it.
Has anyone ever skied in one of these jackets? I know Arcteryx has a good reputation.


No experience with the Venta, but I do have an Arc'teryx Stinger hardshell jacket and it is fantastic. Has never leaked and totally windproof. I layer under it to suit the day. The first 2 weeks of Feb this year were cold as heck, less than -20C, on some days, but I was "snug as a bug in a rug". At the start of March, when it got really warm, I just had a long-sleeved t-shirt under it.
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