 Poster: A snowHead
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viv, That's clearly true, but I think the point the OP was trying to make (correct me if I'm wrong OP) is that he/she would tend to choose a considerably shorter length in the range available for any particular ski model than that typically recommended for their height/weight/expertise.
So if we take for example an all-mountain ski available in 185-175-165-155 lengths. A 6'+ 80kg+ expert skier would traditionally be advised to choose the 185, but the OP is suggesting that the 175, 165 or even 155 should also be considered.
I think that was the idea anyway!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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gatecrasher,
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you can generally pick out the Brits in the French lift queues
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and on the pistes too, they're the back seat billies with cr&p technique - in the majority of cases, compared to our continental cousins...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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spiceman,
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they're the back seat billies with cr&p technique
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"Yeah I'm gunna work on that one Lol! "
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
Funny though you can generally pick out the Brits in the French lift queues, we're the ones on longer fatter skis, while most of the locals apart from the racing fraternity are on short sl shaped rentals
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Hmm. Where I ski in Austria this isn't the case - particularly Nordkette, which is pretty much exclusively skied by Innsbruck locals. The other day I saw a 70 (ish) year old guy on Line Prophet 130's, whilst his wife was rocking Fischer Watea 114's - both very very good skiers. Most of the local young guns are on Atomic Bent Chetlers or similar.
Maybe we can just conclude the French are lazy and like their easy-to-ski skis 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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uktrailmonster, ...spot on...exactly...I ski with a friend of 6foot 4inches, and I put him on a pair of 160 x wings (big shovel) and he, like me on my 150s and 145s, said that this felt intuitively just right - as a result he was able to really focus on technique on steeps etc and really get sorted. His skiing went up by a couple of levels, not because the skis were forgiving, but because he could really concentrate on technique - far from causing him to become lazy, his underlying technique substantially improved.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Most of the local young guns are on Atomic Bent Chetlers or similar.
Maybe we can just conclude the French are lazy and like their easy-to-ski skis
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Can we also conclude that us Brits are really... apiring Austrian young guns!! 
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valais2,
Careful now your going to be a blader before you know it!! 
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stuarth, aaargh...you're right....I suddenly realise what's happened ... I've been taken over by aliens ... beware, beware, they'll have us all on blades...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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clarky999, When we were in St Anton most of the people we met off piste were on slalom or GS skis! Even the instructors. I read that there is more of a "race culture" in Austria than in places like Cham and Verbier where the Freeride wave took hold earlier.
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Out in BC on a powder day you don't see many short slalom skis in the first lift queue. It's all fat long stuff and lots of rockered skis this season. But then you always see the odd old school pair of 210x60s kicking around.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| clarky999, When we were in St Anton most of the people we met off piste were on slalom or GS skis! Even the instructors. I read that there is more of a "race culture" in Austria than in places like Cham and Verbier where the Freeride wave took hold earlier. |
Really? Saalbach is very definitely like that (actually, Kitz and even Ischgl too), but I've always thought a high proportion of people in St Anton were on fatties - I've haven't skied anywhere like Verbier/Chamonix for comparison though. On my instructors course in Anton, two of the three guides who trained us before the assessment used (relatively) big skis offpiste - Mythic Rider sort of thing.
| gatecrasher wrote: |
| Can we also conclude that us Brits are really... apiring Austrian young guns!! |
Yep, although sadly in my case the aspiring is very much the key word in the sentence.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Sat 2-04-11 15:02; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Just to throw my ski observations over the last coupla so years into the mix, most places I go in Austria it's definitely a race ski eurocarver culture and in France definitely fatty fanboi wannabees. Verbier also but Zermatt was a mix.
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I'd say where i ski in austria (ski amade) short sl skis dominate. This area produces many alpine racers so a I guess racing is the thing. Suits me means less competition off piste for fresh tracks, when it does snow.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
| So if we take for example an all-mountain ski available in 185-175-165-155 lengths. A 6'+ 80kg+ expert skier would traditionally be advised to choose the 185, but the OP is suggesting that the 175, 165 or even 155 should also be considered |
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| I ski with a friend of 6foot 4inches, and I put him on a pair of 160 x wings |
Interesting, but I don't know if this addresses my point about the force put through the ski. I'd consider 4 potential factors for determining ski length: your height, weight, ability and aggressiveness (I tend to incorporate fitness into aggressiveness). Of these, I'd typically consider that ability should be taken out of the equation, assuming the skier has picked an appropriate model of ski, as the model is aimed at a given ability band. I'd also pretty much ignore height, as weight is much more significant regarding the force you put through the ski.
So, of the 2 examples quoted:
1. 80 kg is a pretty average weight for a male skier, so I'd say a moderately aggressive skierwould probably be best on the 175, and I'd add or sutract a length for different levels of aggressiveness
2. There are several models under the X-Wing brand, with different sizing, but it looks like 160 is around the middle of the sizes. If your 6'4 friend is skinny, and not too aggressive, then 160 could well be right using the sizing suggestions I gave.
I'm not trying to dismiss the points made; I'm genuinely interested in people's approach to sizing, but I could gain much more if the examples included the size range of the model, and the weight and aggressiveness of skier. Ski lengths have generally reduced over time for many models and usages, so just quoting a given ski length doesn't really supply much information. I've skied on skis between 170 and 190 in the last 10 years, which is entirely due to the changes in the size range of the skis I've chosen
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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viv, ...ah this is more like it....a more critical and genuinely analytic approach, separating out the factors for individuals.
Using your criteria, let's look at a specific case:
my 6foot - 4inch skiing partner: committed and fit, low BMI, but afflicted with one lazy leg and a habit of throwing a shoulder round. Not an aggressive skier- very static upper body with little dynamic movement. Little experience of going onto an edge and holding it there. My judgement was 160 X wing 400s - fairly soft, big shovel (and we had a pair in the garage). UK shop recommendation was that this was 'far too short'.
But I believe the ski was spot on in terms of training for breaking habits and getting onto the edge properly. Turned out well: broke all bad habits and really captured control of the edge, achieving very clean, railed turns.
I think using this length of ski allowed very real focus on technique improvement - he achieved a hell of a lot of improvement in four days.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| viv wrote: |
I'd typically consider that ability should be taken out of the equation, assuming the skier has picked an appropriate model of ski, as the model is aimed at a given ability band.
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I'd question that point. Lengths in any particular ski model are aimed at different height/weight skiers. For this reason the shorter lengths are generally softer. Often when you test the same ski in two different lengths, you notice the difference in stiffness more than the difference in length i.e. skis of the same model in different lengths are not otherwise identical.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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valais2, thanks for the extra information. I can't find the range of lengths for an X-Wing 400, but as it appears to be a ski aimed at intermediates, then I wouldn't expect more than a couple of sizes longer than 160. As your friend is light for his height and not an aggressive skier, then I'm not surprised that he got on with the 160s; that length sounds about right by my approach. I'd happily agree with you in disagreeing with the UK shop recommendation
uktrailmonster, it looks to me like you're agreeing with me. In a given model, shorter lengths will be softer, though I'd say that's fundamentally because they're designed to take less force, and the force put through the ski is the most significant reason for having different length options. Weight and aggressiveness are the 2 most significant factors that lead to an estimate of the typical force a given skier will apply. I discount ability, as a given skiing model is aimed at a given ability level, and so you shouldn't get a significant range of abilities across skiers using a given model of ski, assuming the ski has chosen an appropriate ski. I also don't think height per se matters for ski length; there's a very weak correlation between height and weight, but I'd say only the latter matters
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| waynos wrote: |
| I'd say where i ski in austria (ski amade) short sl skis dominate. This area produces many alpine racers so a I guess racing is the thing. Suits me means less competition off piste for fresh tracks, when it does snow. |
So true. I was in Zauchansee for a couple of days a few weeks back. Fresh (heavy spring) snowfall on two nights and, certainly for each morning, my mate and I had all the fresh to ourselves. OK, so the visibility wasn't great, but there's some really nice tree skiing there and all the locals are fighting with fresh ontop of re-frozen moguls while we're floating through lovliness. Inexplicable to me, but I wouldn't change it for the world!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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zammo, we had the same experience there about 7 years ago - we spent 2 or 3 days skiing the trees and I think we only say one or 2 other groups. I don't think I've ever been so exhausted in my life!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Surely it just depends on what you like to ski and the turns you like to make?
If you like to ski powder then you want a certain amount of surface area to give you float. That will depend on your weight but also the sort of turns you like - big wide turns on the surface or shorter turns in and out of the snow. Up to you.
On piste it's more about turn shape and stability at speed. Personally I don't really want a ski with a shorter radius than about 18m. Otherwise I find them just two turny when I'm carving fast. But that is more a function of side-cut shape than length per se. Don't get me wrong, it can be fun to have a blast on very turny skis - I just wouldnt want to ski them all (much of) the time.
I'm 5'9, 78kg and I ski 174cm on my 60/40 on/off piste skis and 179cm on my 20/80 on/off piste skis - fairly normal I'd have thought.
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I was down in the cellar before we left for holiday a few weeks back looking at my vintage ski collection 
On one side I had a pair of 195cm Elan Slalom skis (vintage 1987) and 2m Blizzard Firebird GS skis (traded for skiboots in 1986).
Then moving on to the middle ground I have a pair of 180cm Atomic C9s circa 98 ish, then moving onto a pair of 153cm Atomic Metrons before finally the current 178cm Salomon Lords (about 3 years old now). I was tempted to get the Elans out of retirement for some retro fun on the Alpine rocks but they don't fit my roof box!
I think of all those skis my favourites are the Metrons. I'm 45 now, used to be pretty good, now the older legs let me down! I remember the first time I skied a pair of carvers (some Head rentals) when I was using the Elans. The Heads were still 190cm but I felt invincible - ice, crud, on off piste, whatever - it was all so easy. I bought the C9s the next season and they were immediately 15cm shorter than I was used to and half the weight but what a great ski. The Metrons were heavier but are rockets on any surface. The shorter length means I can apply the pressure through the whole turn along the whole edge (I'm about 175cm and 75kg).
After the great now conditions at Easter in 2008 I felt I needed a longer wider ski for deeper snow - the Metrons were suffering off piste in the deep fluffy stuff. Maybe I was kidding myself. 2008 was a one off year! The usual late skiing mush is the norm and the Lords are great but not so hot on the icy morning pistes or crusted off piste. This year I took the Lords but wished I was on the Metrons (and I would have had more space in the roof box!).
Gatecrasher says it all really. Brits tend to buy top end skis because that is what many shops sell us. The average punter would struggle to notice the difference between a low end generic rental ski and a top end piste ski - and as for the ability to use them? Well let's just say a lot of the technique I was seeing this year at la Plagne was the "look at me I can ski straight" or the "look I can displace a half ton of snow in each (skidded) turn". I'm not saying this was just the Brits either.
Skis have come a long way but people remain the same! Personally my next skis will be shorter, more shaped than the Lords - I just prefer to put in the turns. If the snow does fall and I feel the need I'll just hire a pair of fatties for the day. But at the end of the day one of the great joys of skiing is to blast down a piste riding an edge. You can do it on long fatter skis but is a hell of a lot easier on shaped shorter ones.
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quigs,
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Skis have come a long way but people remain the same! Personally my next skis will be shorter, more shaped than the Lords - I just prefer to put in the turns. If the snow does fall and I feel the need I'll just hire a pair of fatties for the day. But at the end of the day one of the great joys of skiing is to blast down a piste riding an edge. You can do it on long fatter skis but is a hell of a lot easier on shaped shorter ones.
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Agree, I loved my 177 Lords at Christmas in Val Cenis on the soft stuff, it dumped for 3 days fantastic fun and wouldn't have been without them, but just come back from Flaine I took my Lords and a set of 3Vs @ 155, they are on the short side as I use them for plastic racing, I took them as conditions were not looking good/sparse and not so worried about trashing them.
I used the lords on the first day, icy in the morning on and off the sides, they had nice new edges so grip was reasonable on piste but you have to respect the fact you have to be more progressive with pressure i.e. you can't just throw them on edge on this stuff and expect response, as conditions softened they got better & better, as the slush developed still good fun if you kept them moving well, but on the very busy runs home having to do short turns they got a bit heavy on the legs!
Next day after suffering a few rock dings on my baby's I decided to use the Sl's, obviously fantastic fun on morning hardpack, still good fun as conditions softened, easy in moguls & bumps off the sides, not hooning along but just jumping around having fun with the kids @ moderate speeds, they were also easy in the heavy stuff on the busy run home!
The Lords stayed in the bag for the rest of the week to fight another soft & "light snow" day!
I think the key here is to recognise what works for you in different conditions and (what you are doing on them), I love em short "n" turny & longer fat! 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Ski whatever you are happiest on, If its 145/150cm that's ok in my book. Just Enjoy 
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I tried some 165 cm piste skis the other day (I'd normally go for at least 175 cm on dedicated piste carvers). In short (no pun intended) they were shite and the concept of going short certainly didn't do it for me.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| valais2 wrote: |
| .. broke all bad habits and really captured control of the edge, achieving very clean, railed turns.... - he achieved a hell of a lot of improvement in four days. |
Wow! Are you available for instruction?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I think the key here is to recognise what works for you in different conditions and (what you are doing on them), I love em short "n" turny & longer fat!
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Absolutely right! If my wife and kids would let me I'd take the Metrons and the Lords......but the roofbox has to hold all their junk as well! Maybe I need a bigger box next year!
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| quigs wrote: |
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I think the key here is to recognise what works for you in different conditions and (what you are doing on them), I love em short "n" turny & longer fat!
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Absolutely right! If my wife and kids would let me I'd take the Metrons and the Lords......but the roofbox has to hold all their junk as well! Maybe I need a bigger box next year! |
quigs,
Or.... you could rent the wife some skis! More room then in the box! Oops " take cover, a hand grenade!" 
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You know it makes sense.
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Red Leon, ...this is what we did...four days of intense instruction and analysis, which included some video-ing. He had a lazy leg (giving an A stance on rh turns), was doing a bit of a shoulder swing on lh turns, wasn't completing turns and was losing the edge halfway round the radius, wasn't dynamic enough in up and down movement to effect clean edge transfer, and was not pole planting at the right time. Did loads of different exercises but two seemed really to work. First was uphill skiing - ie on a blue, get on the edge and just hold it and hold it until you're facing uphill, lose all speed and then ski backwards to the middle of the piste in the same tracks you made - purpose: to teach the feel of the edge and getting people to bloody well complete their turns. Rotate on the spot, and do it the other way, and repeat and repeat. Second was rotational balance exercise - first on flatish blue then steep blue - skis very close together (I was taught this with my legs tied together with a bungee) start a side slide straight down the hill but then slowly rotate the skis without going to left or right - ie keeping in exactly the same line - so that they come right round to face the other way - purpose: balance point and always keeping in balance, good rotation of skis, simultaneous movement of skis, removal of fear of skis straight down fall line since small rotation brings you back onto edges. As a result, away went lazy leg, no shoulder throwing and always in good balance, skis used in true parallel, carved turns were completed and speed scrubbed off. Dynamic movement better but needs more work, and pole planting still a bit neglected. But a good result for four days, I think.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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quigs, ...b****r - now you tell me...I just gave a pair of 153 B5 metrons to a friend ... should have held on to them!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Length is king.
Anyone skiing less than 200s just looks like a loser in the liftline.
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FAQ
