 Poster: A snowHead
|
To add some balance. Last season in the 3V I asked an ESF instructor the way to The Ronnie. He didn't speak a word of english, my French is rubbish, so I thanked him and prepared to ski away. He stopped me, looked around, yelled out to one of his colleagues he'd spotted uphill and on the other side of the piste, who the left his clients and came over to give me directions to the pub. He then called his clients across, thereby incorporating the task of giving a thirsty Brit directions to the pub into his lesson to a couple of Frenchies. I couldn't have been more chuffed with their helpful attitude.
The kicker is that the pub was, quite literally, 20 yards away but hidden from view by a couple of trees. We all had a good laugh about it, almost as if Agincourt had never happened.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| mountainaddict wrote: |
| To take the issue a bit further, picture the following scene: You are an office worker, going about your usual job. You are passing through the reception area, perhaps with a colleague. A member of the public (or customer or whatever) comes in and asks "Excuse me, can you tell me if this is where I can find Joe Bloggs? You tell them but mutter as you walk away"Just because I work here they think they have the right to ask me anything they choose?!!".....Now would that be likely to happen? Thought not - you are an ambassador for your employer and wouldn't behave like that, no matter what sort of cr@p day you were having. |
If I was in that position in my job, even if I was in the middle of a discussion with our biggest and most important client, the person interrupted and were fairly sharp with me, I'd still answer their question, try and assist, or point them in the right direction, without any silly comment afterwards.
The silly comment afterwards could, quite realistically, land me in quite a lot of hot water, and rightly so. It would also make the client who was paying think I was a complete jockey, something that makes them think "I wonder if he says stuff like that about me when he clocks off at the end of the day..."
I don't see why a ski instructor should be viewed any differently to a professional in their workplace where there are a large number of members of the public. If they don't want to be bothered, don't wear the jacket, and get a job doing something else. It is a part of the responsibility that comes with it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| mountainaddict wrote: |
| Not having seen the weather forecast that day .......... |
So the ESF guy may have been grumpy or maybe not, we don't know, but these are the key words, aren't they? You are going out into a mountain environment and didn't take the trouble to check the weather forecast? Perhaps the ESF instructor was obliquely trying to make a point. And if you even think you might cross over to one of the other valleys, knowing the forecast is rather too important to leave to the hope that someone on the hill will be able to tell you when you eventually get round to thinking about it.
In general, though, I would imagine most instructors see being asked occasional questions on the hill as going with the uniform. It is inevitable really: a punter who is perhaps anxious about something sees an instructor as a visible source of reliable info. And why not? If we couldn't give good info when asked, there would be something wrong. Like Wayne, I would always be willing to help a skier with factual info - weather, directions to the nearest toilets, state of a particular piste. But interrupting a lesson (other than in an emergency) and asking for free technical advice are just not on. I haven't experienced either on the hill*, but have had politely to point out to a parent in a hotel that I was on holiday and that if he wanted a "couple of hours giving [his] daughter some hints about [her] skiing" (yes, he seriously suggested I might do that), he should try the ski school.
There is a strange connection here between my two sports, skiing and golf. In golf it is against the rules to ask for advice (eg what club should I take, is there something wrong about my swing .... ) but ok to ask for factual information (eg how far is it to the green, is there a bunker over that hill ....).
Not a bad rule of thumb for skiers: ask us in passing for factual information if it isn't interrupting, but don't ask us for advice about your skiing! I reckon you would be unlucky to get a grumpy brush-off.
*As an addendum, I do recall being interrupted in the US in the course of a lesson by a punter. I don't know if he wanted to ask me something but he careered right through my clients and hit me from behind. Never saw him coming! His only question then was a feeble, "are you all right?" as I lay in great pain with my left leg doubled underneath me. My return question to was certainly grumpy. Something along the lines of "what the feck were you doing?" 
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Tue 22-03-11 16:49; edited 2 times in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| ccl wrote: |
| There is a strange connection here between my two sports, skiing and golf. In golf it is against the rules to ask for advice (eg what club should I take, is there something wrong about my swing .... ) but ok to ask for factual information (eg how far is it to the green, is there a bunker over that hill ....).. |
How's that work then.
When I play golf they only ever give me one stick. I pay my £1 to the person in the little hut and they give me a ball and a stick, regardless of how many of us there are.
Am I allow to ask my mate how to get the little ball over the bridge, through the windmill and round the bend to the Ole', or is that not OK.
What about when the ball jumps out of the alley, can I put it back.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
Wayne, Crazy questions these
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Wayne wrote: |
| ccl wrote: |
| There is a strange connection here between my two sports, skiing and golf. In golf it is against the rules to ask for advice (eg what club should I take, is there something wrong about my swing .... ) but ok to ask for factual information (eg how far is it to the green, is there a bunker over that hill ....).. |
How's that work then.
When I play golf they only ever give me one stick. I pay my £1 to the person in the little hut and they give me a ball and a stick, regardless of how many of us there are.
Am I allow to ask my mate how to get the little ball over the bridge, through the windmill and round the bend to the Ole', or is that not OK.
What about when the ball jumps out of the alley, can I put it back. |
Sounds like you are an expert and do not need advice from others.  or lessons.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Getting asked questions (some sensible, some less so) goes with the territory when you're in a ski school jacket so I'm sure everyone working as an instructor accepts this as a probable event most days. Like others I have no problem with questions about the mountain and other related issues as long as they don't interrupt my lesson but if people who are not with me want technique advice during a lesson I'd politely direct them to the ski school office! I do object to the time my clients have with me being compromised in an unnecessary way, my clients come first because they should get what they've paid for.
However, where I do really start to draw the line is when someone decides to try and give me a hard time (sometimes in front of clients) for operating issues that are nothing to do with me or the ski school I work for, yes this does very occasionally happen at Cairngorm where I think some people believe we work for the lift company. As I recall my reaction in these circumstances has been a smile and a comment to the effect that if they feel strongly they should address their concerns to someone who works for the company rather than me, I'll then try to beat a very hasty retreat if possible (when I'm alone) or turn away and try to speak to my clients (which I am usually doing anyway and have been interrupted). I think I'm quite polite about it but it strikes me someone could take it the wrong way and accuse me of being rude ... there's always someone around willing to take things the wrong way (not that I'm suggesting the OP did). It's difficult isn't it and you can't get it right every time with every single person I guess but in the OPs original post above I have to say we weren't there and inevitably we are only getting one side of the story so perhaps we shouldn't judge. The comments above might be 100% accurate but I'm loathe to judge on this basis because we are, as I think has been intimated, discussing something that may well affect someone's career.
I can understand the urge to have a go online (goodness I'm sure I must have done it) but personally I think if I experienced the above and felt aggrieved about it I'd be inclined to extend my advice about complaining to the right people above to this situation. So I think a letter, e-mail or even conversation on the day with the ESF office concerned would be a more appropriate response than posting the story on an internet forum where, even though no names are given, the identity of the instructor concerned could quite easily be discovered.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
My advice would be to move on and forget about it.......people often have bad days and sometimes are a little grumpy.............its called life!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
I am extremely suspicious of anyone who decides that they will just slag off someone on the web - coz they can and it's fun.
|
I don't see anything suspicious about this. mountainaddict is simply recounting (in my opinion) an unusual and interesting skiing related experience.
And I can't see how you can suggest that he thinks it's "fun" - there's nothing in his post to suggest that.... 
Surely you have to admit that the response he got to a civil (and seemingly polite) question was rather OTT?
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
if he's got an altitude problem he probably shouldn't be a ski instructor 
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
ccl
Q: You are going out into a mountain environment and didn't take the trouble to check the weather forecast?
A: I have a cr@p mobile phone (hopeless internet service) and don't posssess a laptop. We didn't see the forecast posted anywhere between Brides Les Bains gondola and the first gondola we boarded at Meribel. Regardless of the forecast we were skiing anyway - and on piste in the 3 Vallees rather than setting off on the Haute Route. So you are telling me - seriously - that you have never skied without checking the forecast? (And checking your bindings, pulling all the plugs out, checking all the doors are locked and washing your hands 100 times?) If so, well done.
Q: Perhaps the ESF instructor was obliquely trying to make a point.
A: Or perhaps he wasn't. Supposition on your part.
Q: And if you even think you might cross over to one of the other valleys, knowing the forecast is rather too important to leave to the hope that someone on the hill will be able to tell you when you eventually get round to thinking about it.
A: And if a ski instructor can't tell you, who can? I can only reiterate that I didn't see the forecast. Hence my query. So it would have been better not to check at all, as opposed to checking when I got round to it? Better late than never surely? I can just imagine your even more holier than thou response had we not checked at all and been posting on here about getting stuck. Anyway, part of the reason for my query was that - during the gondola ride - we received a text message from Crystal Hols which warned of 'possible' high winds in the 3 Vallees (very decent of them to let us know). So yes, had we not received it and checked, we might well have been stuck in the wrong valley. However, although that in itself may be wallet threatening (taxi fare or overnight stay) it certainly couldn't be regarded as life threatening, irresponsible or the end of the world - which is what you seem to imply. As it turned out, the links were open all day.
roga
I didn't feel inclined to complain to the ESF. And I didn't post on here as a form of attack on the individual concerned - merely to share my experience. Isn't that what  is all about? - see posts re budget airlines, tour operators, chalet staff, bad car hire, excess baggage charges, poor piste marking, dodgy snow reports etc etc. I can't see where those posters have been advised to complain to the relevant body
| Quote: |
but in the OPs original post above I have to say we weren't there and inevitably we are only getting one side of the story so perhaps we shouldn't judge
|
I don't recall seeing any other posts where the OP's integrity is directly questioned like this. It hadn't actually occurred to me that fellow may be barefaced liars but thanks for alerting me to that possibility - after reading every one of your future posts I will obviously carefully consider whether you have made the whole thing up.
Anyway, this concludes my contribution to the thread. It's official - as per speedy's advice, I have moved on. END OF  .
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
at first glance the title of the thread does suggest criticism of all ESF instructors (Snowheads aren't usually that hot on the placing of apostophes}
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| mountainaddict wrote: |
roga
I didn't feel inclined to complain to the ESF. And I didn't post on here as a form of attack on the individual concerned - merely to share my experience. Isn't that what is all about? - see posts re budget airlines, tour operators, chalet staff, bad car hire, excess baggage charges, poor piste marking, dodgy snow reports etc etc. I can't see where those posters have been advised to complain to the relevant body |
Fair point and I have to admit I love threads that complain about Ryanair
However I guess when the object of the post is one particular individual it makes it a bit different for some us ... unless his name is Michael O'Leary that is 
| Quote: |
| I don't recall seeing any other posts where the OP's integrity is directly questioned like this. It hadn't actually occurred to me that fellow may be barefaced liars but thanks for alerting me to that possibility - after reading every one of your future posts I will obviously carefully consider whether you have made the whole thing up. |
Eeerm I think you're rather overreacting there, at no point have I questioned your integrity and nor did I intend to but if two people are involved in a conversation or anything else and only one person gives an account of it it is inevitably just the POV of one party that is reported. That party might be 100% accurate and the account of the other person, if it were forthcoming, might be 100% incorrect but that doesn't mean with only the first person's (albeit accurate) account we have the full story!
For the record I have at times (a fair while back) made ill considered posts about issues like boot fitting (my own boots) and frankly was told by some people in far less diplomatic terms that my take on it was a load of b*ll*x, in no way am I suggesting that about you and nor do I think anyone else has either.
However, you aren't doing the case for your being cool and calm headed any good with reactions like the above or below ...
| Quote: |
| Anyway, this concludes my contribution to the thread. It's official - as per speedy's advice, I have moved on. END OF . |
'nuf said I guess!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| mountainaddict wrote: |
| So you are telling me - seriously - that you have never skied without checking the forecast? (And checking your bindings, pulling all the plugs out, checking all the doors are locked and washing your hands 100 times?) |
Like the Captain of the Pinafore, I can only say "Well, hardly ever". Checking the forecast is a routine part of my skiing -not really a matter for ridicule.
| mountainaddict wrote: |
Q: Perhaps the ESF instructor was obliquely trying to make a point.
A: Or perhaps he wasn't. Supposition on your part. |
Perhaps indeed he wasn't. That's why I said "perhaps" - a possibility not a supposition.
| mountainaddict wrote: |
| A: And if a ski instructor can't tell you, who can? |
I think you have missed my saying that in common with Wayne (and subsequently I see with Roga), I regard being approached by skiers and asked questions goes with the uniform. Your guy should have told you what the forecast was: I would have done so courteously and even without a hint of being holier than you
| mountainaddict wrote: |
| So it would have been better not to check at all, as opposed to checking when I got round to it? Better late than never surely? I can just imagine your even more holier than thou response had we not checked at all and been posting on here about getting stuck. |
That is just inventing stuff I did not say or even imply. Yes, you should make checking the forecast a routine in your skiing. Yes, if you cant get hold of a forecast you should ask. And yes, if you ask an instructor, he/she should give you a polite and informative answer.
Sorry you have misunderstood and sorry not all the responses to you posting may not have been quite what you expected.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
He could have been showing off to his students.... were there any girls in his group?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Can we all at least agree that this guy was an arrogant t!t, leaving aside the colour of his jacket, his origins, etc. My feelings are that he didn't actually know the forecast himself which is perhaps why he threw his toys out of his pram
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Colin B wrote: |
| if he's got an altitude problem he probably shouldn't be a ski instructor |
^ This - If you choose to work in an industry dedicated to customer service then you really should be an affable chap.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
If the guy didn't want to give you the forecast he could surely have said something like "oh I'm not really certain, there is a board at the bottom of the lift if you are interested?"
Job done.
Difficult to understand his attitude.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
"Grumpy Jock in Cold Shoulder Shock"!
Move along - nothing here to see.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
you've a long memory.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Based on my casual observations over 30+ years, many (but not all, Wayne) ski instructors behave as though they own the mountains, the lifts, the bars and even the roads around. So they shouldn't be surprised when the general public asks them questions. Given an apparent general downturn in instruction business in recent years, they might want to remember that customers (including potential ones) make paydays possible.
In this case, he may have been a genial Scot until he'd completed the ESF customer care course. Maybe suffering referendum-withdrawal symptoms while in France? Or perhaps a typical Glaswegian.
Pick the bones outta that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| intermediate wrote: |
| Based on my casual observations.... |
Given that the thread is 5 years old, the referendum hadn't happened, Wayne no longer posts here, and Glasgow has been named the friendliest city in the world by travellers ... don't have much faith in your powers of observation to be honest
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
the referendum hadn't happened, Wayne no longer posts here, and Glasgow has been named the friendliest city in the world by travellers ...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
@miranda, you got me bang to rights! My powers of observation deserting me both on piste and online these days.
Wonder if the grumpy one has cheered up after 5 years?
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
sounds to me like he answered your question and then continued with his business.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
No nation does grumpy quite like the Scots.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
Got on the Diable lift about 12.30 this afternoon and an ESF moniteur sat next to me. He immediately struck up a conversation which ranged from my apartment to his Chalet, what I did before retiring and the 1968 Olympics, all in my limited French. He wasn't a Scot though
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
@Claude B, I got told in no uncertain terms that I would not be getting on the Solaise Express with an instructor because he wanted to go alone. Not exactly the greatest PR in the world...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
@Gerry, that figure is for the Western Highlands, not Scotland as a whole.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| under a new name wrote: |
| @Gerry, that figure is for the Western Highlands, not Scotland as a whole. |
I knew that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| clarky999 wrote: |
| Quote: |
Really, the OP started the conversation in the wrong way. Instead of asking a direct question "What's the weather like?"; approach it in a roundabout way " great/bad day for skiing, snow looks fab/crap, don't you think?"
|
Why? The instructor is clearly a dick. As well as teaching people to ski, an instructor should be an ambassador for both the sport and the resort - making sure as many guests have an ace holiday as possible, regardless of whether they're with your group/ski school, will benefit, and is in the best interests of, all resort workers (and of course the guests ) |
+1
If you wear an instructors uniform you are not just an ambassador for the company you work for or the resort but also for the sport in general. You do get some right idiots asking you questions ( ie very low std of intermediot just out of snowplough in a white out asking for directions on the Ptarmigan to the east wall and the gully's, this was the most common up there ) but you need to be polite or at the very least diplomatic so as to do your best to set a good example.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Being rude to people seems to be the way of life in French ski resorts (and Scotland for that matter).
My advice; Go to Italy, where people are much more welcoming and helpful, especially if you try a little bit of holiday Italiano.
It seems to me that if you're a ski instructor, people will seek your advice and local knowledge and if you hate being asked, or can't be bothered to help people, maybe you should do something else?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Ouch! wrote: |
| Being rude to people seems to be the way of life in French ski resorts (and Scotland for that matter). |
And don't forget the South of England, where people are generally rude and ignorant.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@Gerry, the South of England is packed with economic refugees from The North of England. How do you square that one exactly?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Ouch! wrote: |
Being rude to people seems to be the way of life in French ski resorts (and Scotland for that matter).
|
And the English are always so polite especially behind your back or when they are driving 
Actually I dont think that the alleged behaviour of one person is sufficient to justify smearing a whole country. In my lifetime I have met many pleasant people from all countries and some rude unpleasant ones from the same countries. There are good and bad in all places so let's avoid these unpleasant generalisations
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Tue 16-02-16 20:27; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Dr John wrote: |
| @Gerry, the South of England is packed with economic refugees from The North of England. How do you square that one exactly? |
Northerners are generally less rude and less ignorant.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
lady's front bottom that thinks because he has a jacket with the ESF logo he can be an asshole to . When he saw my badge from Equipes de France de ski he told me i was a show skier that only could ski between slalom poles . Out of the blue . When he was giving info to his clients i gave him a good snow shower ........... 
