 Poster: A snowHead
|
I am off to Cervinia next weekend but when I last stayed in a resort at high altitude (Tignes) I suffered from headaches and restless sleep. Even when I cut out alcohol the headaches still affected me. I put this down to a type of altitude sickness. I am wondering if anyone else has had these symptoms and whether there is anything I can do before I go or when I am there.
Thanks
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Personally I think dehydration plays a big part in altitude headaches, try to drink at least the suggested 2l of water a day.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Drink loads (of water) and take headache pills as required!
Really, drink absolutely stupid amounts of water. If you don't need a pee, you haven't drunk enough!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
I suffer whether it's 1000m or 2000m. Sleeping well is my biggest issue. Plenty of water and cutting down on alcohol (I find it hard) is about as much as you can do I think. I've been to Tignes several times and for some reason last October I had a nasty dry cough, stopped as soon as I left and I haven't had it any other times.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Chew coca-leaves or drink ginger tea, it really helps. Also drink enough water as described above (but not stupid amounts, it may cause harm).
Furthermore try to cut down on the alcohol (dehydration) and if possible: try to avoid the highest lifts the first day(s).
Lastly: ski over to Zermatt en enjoy the stunning scenery. That alone should cure a headache!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
I don't get headaches, but can't sleep above about 1200m. Val Thorens was like sleep deprivation. Three bottles of cheap wine seemed to cure it though...... (but did give me something of a headache next morning) 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Plenty of water - sports coaches aren't happy unless elite athletes have to get up for a pee in the night! What you produce should be pale straw coloured.
I'd say ski (rather than avoid) the highest runs - helps acclimatisation (climb high sleep low).
If you go to Zermatt watch it on the way back - last time I did it walking through the tunnel at Klein Matterhorn gave me a headache - cleared a few hundred metres lower though.
Happy memories. That red run from Plateau Rosa to the village is great - big challenge to ski that non stop!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| SCollier1 wrote: |
| I am off to Cervinia next weekend but when I last stayed in a resort at high altitude (Tignes) I suffered from headaches and restless sleep. |
Have a look at page 11 on the Everest or Inca Trail dossiers.
I wrote this “extremely” simplified description of the affects and symptoms as a simple intro, nothing else (horses for courses  )
| SCollier1 wrote: |
| whether I can do before I go or when I am there. |
Before you go = No, there is nothing you can do, other than pop some specific pills at least 3 days prior to going - but that's for a different forum ?
When you're there = drink fluids and if the symptoms persist go down to a lower altitude
In future = go to a lower resort.
This is not mean to be a flippant remark. Everyone’s susceptibility to AMS is different and so what may be an OK resort (altitude) for some people may not be OK for others.
Also, just because you have been to a resort once and were OK doesn't mean you’ll always be OK at that altitude – things (and you) change. I, like most people, talk about the relative height above sea level but remember that it’s NOT the altitude that’s affecting you, it’s the air pressure pushing against the alveolial sacks in your lungs (see here section why is there more air lower down).
Basically for most ski resorts you “should” be fine if you take it easy, go down to a lower altitude if you start to feel the affects of AMS, drink plenty of fluids (at least 1ltr per day for each 1,000m in altitude – more when the weather is bad).
Contrary to popular opinion (and that bloke in the pub) mild exercise will alleviate the affects of AMS better than just resting – as it increases the rate of breathing and so the amount (volume) of oxygen intake - so Blue runs are better than Blacks or doing nothing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Another vote for the drink loads of water answer
Although I am quite fond of the drink loads of wine/beer/gin argument as well, cos at least I sort of enjoy getting the headache!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I have had hypoxia at the Aiguille du Midi but am fine Tignes. Acclimatisation is the secret.
The vast majority of people are unaffected.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
The issue is that the body gradually dehydrates over the 1st 3 days at altitude, reaching a peak on day 3 typically. Take paracetemol/ibuprofen for the headache, drinks loads of water as everyone says (3L is a good target if you are skiing), and after 3-4 days or so the problem should disappear as you acclimatise. Avoid alcohol, caffeine & other diuretics.
Also, take it easy in the first few days, especially on day 3 when the body's dehydration reaches a peak; eat light foods high in fluid and carbs, low in fat & protein (eg soups, cereal, fruit, veg etc)...Then once you start to get on top of the dehydration, start to eat more normally (athletes will start to eat loads of protein and vitamin C at this point to increase the natural EPO production and red blood cell production which helps a strong acclimatisation.)
You can also try taking gingko biloba (available from health food stores/some chemists) for the week befoe you go and when you are there, it is believed to improve circulation in peripheral parts of the body and is something some Asian mountaineers take before/during a trip. When I have tried this, for mountaineering trips, then results have been good (though there's so many variables its hard to say if that was due to the ginko, but it certainly didn't hurt...)
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
Diamox is the prescription drug of choice for the promotion of aclimatisation. It's good because it doesn't mask more serious problems - which, anyway, are unlikely at 2000m. Side effects are an increase in thirst (good) and a tendency to need to pee in the night (inconvenient).
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Thu 17-03-11 18:37; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hi gra that was detailed informative thanks. . Does anyone know how altitude affects asthmatics. . As I feel Ineed to go a week before others in case I have problems and may take longer to adjust. . . Do some people really have problems at 1000m. . . 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
snowflo, I have asthma but am unaffected by altitude, even above 3500m. At such altitudes, it is important for everyone to recognise they will be getting less oxygen, so will get tired more quickly. They may also experience hypoxia which will affect balance and judgement, so keep checking that others in your group are OK.
If anything, the air in the mountains is almost allergen free and my lung capacity feels improved when I am there. A feather pillow on the hotel bed would be more likely to affect me than altitude.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Here is my take based on seven trekking trips to the Himalayas over a number of years, although I stress that I am not a medic. All of those trips involved altitudes far higher than those we are discussing here.
I would say be careful if you are considering Diamox. I have been told that Diamox can mask more serious symptoms and it can have serious side effects, however for a short period you will probably be OK. I was told by a doctor who was running the small hospital above Namche Bazaar (14,000 feet altitude) in the Everest region that a quarter of the daily dose can help with some sleep problems.
One of the classic pieces of advice when trekking is to walk high and sleep low. That is not always practical when trekking but recreational sking, apart from touring, is the equivalent. We ski throughout the day much higher than we sleep which is good for acclimatisation.
The advice to take plenty of water is good. The test for dehydration is that when you pee it should be "clear and copious". The two normally go together. If it's not clear it will not be copious and vice versa.
I think almost everybody can acclimatise but it just takes some people a longer time than others. If you have a problem the secret is to do all the small things to the letter. So here are my suggestions:
Make sure you are well hydrated when you arrive in the resort. Guzzle water on the transfer from the airport and preferably do not have a hangover from your last night back home.
Drink water continually throughout the day. Keep your body topped up and do not just depend on drinking water at the start and end of the days. Acclimatisation is a continuous process therefore you should carry water with you on the mountain. I am not saying you need to drink after every run, but you should drink more frequently than you might normally think necessary.
When eating choose the foods that contain water such as fruit if it's available at breakfast, soups for lunch and as an evening starter, plus veggies. Caffeine and alcohol (sorry) need to be avoided.
Keep a bottle of water by the bed at night and when ever you wake up ( sounds as though you might be awake anyway) drink some more. Make sure a window is open when you sleep and if that is not possible try and turn the heating right down and drink even more.
Take it easy skiing on the first day in particular. When trekking the Sherpa guides are forever repeating the words "slowly, slowly". They are usually Buddhists so it sounds a bit like a mantra. Taking it a bit easy on the first day is the skiing equivalent.
If you do all of the above, even if it sounds a bit obsessive, I reckon you should be sleeping reasonably well by your third night in the resort i.e. after your second day of skiing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
A bit sceptical about avoiding caffeine, if sleeping is a problem then avoiding it in the evening is sensible. But caffeine withdrawal can cause headaches and will have no effect on your hydration if you drink sensibly.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Thanks Guys. I have reduced my cafeine intake over the past week just in case and will make sure that I drink plenty of water during the day and at night.
TBH, the restless sleep was more of a problem than the headaches last time.
I'm hoping my last high altitude ski holiday was just a one off but want to make sure I can do something about it if I get the same symptoms again.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Hi barshaker thanks for sharing about your asthma. . Glad to know it doesnt affect you. . All the advice on this thread has been very useful thanks. . 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
The world doesn't agree with you there richjp. Try googling on "diamox masking":
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=diamox+masking
Some top tips from Telluride (2670m):
| Quote: |
High Altitude Tips
Hydrate, hydrate, hydrate! Telluride is perched in the mountains at a higher altitude than you are likely accustomed to. Combat the potential affects of altitude sickness by drinking an abundance of water (twice the amount you normally consume). It is also wise to limit the intake of alcohol and caffeine the first couple of days at altitude as they can cause dehydration. Before traveling to altitude, ask your doctor about any current illnesses or conditions affecting you now that could be exacerbated by altitude, such as high blood pressure, angina, or pregnancy. Make sure these conditions are under control before you come up here.
* Avoid over exertion upon arrival. Take it easy on the slopes the first day.
* At first sign of a headache, take ibuprofen; 400-600 milligrams may be very helpful
Headache, nausea, trouble sleeping, and dizziness are the symptoms of altitude sickness. Seek treatment if symptoms continue longer than 24-48 hours or the symptoms are severe, such as vomiting, severe headache or difficulty breathing. It is quite common to have minor symptoms or difficulty breathing the first few hours at altitude. Medical care may include the use of oxygen or medication. Although traveling to lower altitudes treats altitude sickness, very rarely do sufferers need to resort to these measures. Altitude sickness is often compared to sea sickness.
Altitude Myths
Myth # 1 - Don't drink caffeine at altitude.
We don't know where this false assumption came from, but likely from the fact that caffeine is a mild diuretic (makes you pee). The concern is that it could dehydrate you and contribute to altitude sickness. This concern is unfounded unless you drink pots of black sludge coffee a day and little else. In reality, caffeine stimulates your brain, kidneys and breathing, all of which are helpful at altitude. And for those people who drink several caffeinated beverages a day, stopping abruptly can cause a profound headache.
Myth #2 - Diamox masks symptoms of altitude sickness.
Taking Diamox to prevent AMS will not mask symptoms. It works on the same pathway that your own body uses to help you acclimatize. It is a carbonic anhydrase inhibitor which makes you urinate a base chemical called bicarbonate. This makes your blood more acidic and therefore stimulates breathing thereby taking in more oxygen. It speeds up your natural process of acclimatization and if you stop taking it you will not have rebound symptoms. It is one of the main medicines doctors use to prevent and treat acute mountain sickness (AMS).
Myth #3 - Physical fitness protects against altitude sickness.
Physical fitness offers no protection from altitude illness. In fact, many young fit athletes drive themselves too hard at altitude prior to acclimatizing thinking they can 'push through' the discomfort. They ignore signs of altitude illness thinking it can affect them because they are fit and healthy. Everyone, regardless of fitness, is susceptible to AMS.
Myth #4 - Drinking extra water will protect you from altitude illness.
Staying hydrated is important at altitude. Symptoms of dehydration are similar to AMS. In reality you only need an additional liter to a liter and a half of water at altitude. Too much water is harmful and can dilute your body's sodium levels (hyponatremia) causing weakness, confusion, seizures, and coma. A good rule of thumb to assess for hydration is to check your urine. Clear urine indicates adequate hydration, dark urine suggest dehydration and the need to drink more water.
Myth # 5 - Children are more susceptible to altitude illness.
Several studies have shown that children have similar rates of altitude illness as adults. No evidence exist that children are more susceptible to the altitude. If your child is otherwise healthy and the basic rules of acclimatization are followed they will likely do well at altitude. Children do get altitude illness and the main challenge in those very young is that they can't communicate their headache and other symptoms. Excessive crying in a baby the first 1-2 days at altitude could be altitude illness. Children with AMS bounce back quickly with treatment as do most adults. |
http://www.tellurideworldcup.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=111&Itemid=117
SCollier1, if the problem persists, why not book a lower resort next time?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
This is from the masters of altitude medicine
http://www.ismmed.org/np_altitude_tutorial.htm
Unless you become an extreme case you will NOT suffer HAPE nor HACE but the rest of it is quite relevent. Having similarly been over 6000m frequently and over 7000m once what Richip says is spot on. I would definetly concur with the use (or rather avoidance) of Diamox. At most alpine (sleeping) altitudes I wouldn't bother. You are still probably breathing in air that has at least 80% of the oxygen at sea level.
Also remember some of what you perceive to be altitude symptoms may also be induced by the dryness of the alpine air.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| snowflo wrote: |
| Hi gra that was detailed informative thanks. . Does anyone know how altitude affects asthmatics. . As I feel Ineed to go a week before others in case I have problems and may take longer to adjust. . . Do some people really have problems at 1000m. . . |
As someone who has exercise induced asthma I would say that I get an occassional rattle if the air is super-cold, but it soon passes. I try to remember to use my blue inhaler each morning and have no issues mostly. You should note however, that ibuprofen makes the salbutamol less effective - so either put up with the headache or take a different pain-killer, asprin is simple if you tollerate it. I am sure you'll have a great time.
Ian
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Interesting thread as I often but not always get problems in resorts at 1650m for the first 2 or 3 days after arrival.
I have tried Diamox (Acetazolomide) but by about day 3 when I wring out my flannel whilst washing my fingers feel as though the blood is oozing around in them, sort of a tingling I suppose - that put me off Diamox but I might give it another try.
Has anoyne experience of Veloceptin ? not sure if I have the name correct.
Eyeopener, Can I get coca leaves in S.E. England ? Could I grow the plant ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Our chalet is at 1200m and the effect of altitude is tangible for the first couple of days. But it's not acute AMS. The posts re the Great Ranges and the specific research on AMS which have been quoted are very good and worth following. Diamox is NOT recommended at Euro Alpine altitudes and for the kind of symptoms you report. Everything which people have said about hydration is spot on - we have a big jug of water on the table at all meals and force people to drink a lot, particularly small kids.
But note: no-one has mentioned keeping a window open at night. This can be very important. Put more bedding on and open a window to get a decent flow of air (not direct over the body if you are immediately next to a window, this can, for example, seize up neck muscles).
I always have very vivid dreams in the Alps - even when grabbing a quick few hours bivvying whilst climbing - and get Alpine Nose - bloody membrane and resulting nosebleeds. This latter is all to do with low humidity not altitude as such. The dreams are a common phenomenom but not explained. Many people experience this and it may be a function of lower oxygen. Opening a window reduces this, for me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| dsoutar wrote: |
This is from the masters of altitude medicine
http://www.ismmed.org/np_altitude_tutorial.htm
Unless you become an extreme case you will NOT suffer HAPE nor HACE but the rest of it is quite relevent. Having similarly been over 6000m frequently and over 7000m once what Richip says is spot on. I would definetly concur with the use (or rather avoidance) of Diamox. At most alpine (sleeping) altitudes I wouldn't bother. You are still probably breathing in air that has at least 80% of the oxygen at sea level.
Also remember some of what you perceive to be altitude symptoms may also be induced by the dryness of the alpine air. |
Great link thanks that explains a lot of what I experience; at least the minor stuff anyway (don't want ever want to get into the more serious stuff!) . As others have said generally in Europe we are not sleeping at great altitudes but it affects everybody differently.
valais2 My wife and I both have much more vivid dreams whilst in the mountains. I wonder if it is because you are constantly waking and falling back to sleep so you are in the dreaming/REM phase more often and remember the dreams because you wake straight after/during them so they are fresh in your mind.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Im intrigued by this thread. Last year we went skiing to a certain eastern European resort with an altitude of 1350m. My son who has asthma developed a bad cough whilst we were there and we attributed this to a smokey hotel bar.
This year we went to an Austrian resort with an altitude of 900m and no smoke in the bar and my son did not get a cough.
I'm now wondering if the cough was due to the altitude rather than the smokey bar. Is this likely?
Also, if hydration is so important to prevent altitude symptons then would rehydration salts be of any use?
Pete
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
If you are getting problems below 5000m, then you may be a wuss.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
altis,
"some” of the wiki-wisdom you quote is fine. "Some" is not only wrong, it dangerous.
Oh well someone elses problem 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| PeteMan wrote: |
Im intrigued by this thread. Last year we went skiing to a certain eastern European resort with an altitude of 1350m. My son who has asthma developed a bad cough whilst we were there and we attributed this to a smokey hotel bar.
This year we went to an Austrian resort with an altitude of 900m and no smoke in the bar and my son did not get a cough.
I'm now wondering if the cough was due to the altitude rather than the smokey bar. Is this likely?
Also, if hydration is so important to prevent altitude symptons then would rehydration salts be of any use?
Pete |
I wouldn't think 1350M or 900M would be noticeable. We have speed bumps bigger than that in Killinchy
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
I'm not a doctor but a retired Biology teacher. My biological knowledge made me think that taking iron pills might help as you acclimatise by making more blood. You do need more fluid but many years ago I tried taking an iron pill alternate days for a week before skiing and during the trip and had no problems. If you take too many it can cause constipation. I've never read any medical advice suggesting this but it just seemed a good idea. When I first became a blood donor - way back in the 60s - they used to give you iron pills after giving blood. Several people I know have tried this and it has helped them. I don't bother now as I ski many weeks in the season and the body seems to stay adjusted for the season.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
mogulski, Sorry - it just doesn't. You will not build extra blood cells just by taking iron unless you were iron deficient to start with. Taking epo on the other hand seems to work well for certain cyclists...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
The mantra seems to be drink plenty of water, but why? How does water help the body cope with altitude?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Boredsurfing wrote: |
| The mantra seems to be drink plenty of water, but why? How does water help the body cope with altitude? |
You need to take more breaths to get the same amount of O so you exhale more and so you breath out more moisture.
As you body starts to loose moisture it will replace it (to the important bits of you) and your blood pressure will drop.
Plus there is less air (pressure) up there so water (sweat) does not need as much energy (body heat) to evaporate from the surface (you), QED you loose more moisture through sweat
So these 3 soon add up and you need to drink more to replace the loss
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Sun 20-03-11 21:19; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
