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I'm a really good skier

 Poster: A snowHead
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little tiger, Any good skier - or skier who wants to improve - should compare themselves against other skiers. You don't need to do it in a way which is judged by points/times. Self-ratification and enhancing one's skills can be achieved without a medal, a certificate, a winning time... Of the ones you mention - freeride and powder 8s are probably the only ones which are relevant to the way I want to ski, and are judged in a rather subjective fashion.

And sometimes the desire to compete can become an obsession which gets in the way of actually "being" on skis and in the mountains.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
The problem then is what you are comparing to... which bits do you compare? how do you know what is good? etc etc... If everyone knew what was good and how to do it then there would be a lot less skiers around who are decidedly poorly skilled
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
oh and no you can improve by simply comparing your skills to what they were and improving the skills... no need to compare yourself to the next guy... only to compare skills to the ideal you are striving for... in fact as bodies vary greatly comparing to another person is often not a great idea if you actually want to develop skills rather than a 'look'
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little tiger, interesting.

It depends on your learning style - but I'd say that many people do well by seeing the way someone else skis, using that as a model, and then trying to develop a kind of kinaesthetic image which they seek to recreate. There are people who can be objectively analytical and verbalise clearly the way they are skiing in the way a good F1 driver might analyse a car's response. But I suspect that isn't most of us. We develop a whole body feel of when we are skiing well, and then seek to be able to achieve that at will, and can use a few tweaks and ideas to help us get there.

But when ski instructors analyse someone's style - surely they have to do it mainly by watching and the "look" of a pupil skiing, and then intervene using verbal prompts or drills or demonstrations that highlight issues?

What is good skiing? That is a whole different question. But I'd argue you can be slow and good, and also fast and bad. For me the priorities are surely:

1) Be not a danger to others.
2) Be not a danger to yourself
3) Have fun
4) Then work on style and skills.

The danger is that 3) gets forgotten.

As to why there are a lot of poorly-skilled skiers around, the answer is that many simply don't care about their agricultural style. Trouble is they often haven't achieved priority 1).
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stoatsbrother, I've skied with instructors who were mostly racers/coaches/examiners&instructor trainers... Almost without fail these guys look at ski performance & then track back to discover 'why' the performance was degraded... Little need to adhere to a 'look'... and I'd argue that in fact very very few folks are actually kinaesthetic learners primarily... I myself like to understand before I do, but rely almost wholly on the kinaesthetic feedback that I do have to control my body movements, having little proprioceptive feedback to assist me. I know from talking to coaches that it is not that common for folks to be really in touch with their sensory feedback, they spend a lot of time trying to get students in touch with these senses.

I'd argue that developing skills is big part of 1) and 2) and a huge part of 3)... in fact I have this quote from one of our students - who is a mad keen bump skier btw...

Quote:
A few short years ago I thought that spending time on the hill practicing drills was just for coaches, instructors and competitors. I felt that I always had fun when I was skiing so what was the use of replacing 'fun time' with 'drill time'. Now I understand that mastering your drills leads to better, more efficient technique which leads to more confidence on the most difficult terrain and thus, MORE FUN!

That guy had never done any work on skills before getting those DVDs... he found huge improvements that lead to a huge improvement in skiing skills off piste and in bumps... he is now a convert...


Working on skills is FUN, and leads to MORE FUN... number 3) being not available when you work on skills is a myth that gets promulgated by folks that don't understand how working on skills fits into all skiing... It does not mean skipping powder days, or being bored to tears, it does mean understanding skills and how to work on them and then fitting that into your ski time.
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little tiger, I can have fun when working on skills. But it is also undoubtedly true that there are a lot of people out there without much in the way of skills who are also having as much fun, even if their style is unattractive and inefficient.

My point here is that you come from a particular "ski performance" viewpoint, and your training programme and choice of coaches may reflect that. If by

Quote:
these guys look at ski performance


you mean that most instructors assess their pupils performance by using one of the performance measures you were suggesting to the OP, ie against the clock, or by competition, then your experiences are not generalisable to the rest of us. I suspect that in the wider world very little adult ski teaching is based on prior assessment of the pupil on any such "objective" measures - and that most instructors, most of the time, are basing their assessments on watching the skier ski... which is actually what I said.

I'm not quite sure why you are picking a fight here...! I suspect we agree lessons are good, we may just differ on what the metrics should be for assessing progress and success.
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No - not clock - just how the ski is performing compared to what would be expected from what the student was asked to do... generally ski performance is far from optimal, plenty to work on... sideslipping is a skill, as is narrow track steering and wide track steering, then you have all the balance skills, angulation skills, transitional skills, line skills, pressure skills(flexion extension), etc etc etc... A decent coach can teach or tax a student in an infinite variety of ways... few folks have high level base skills even, let alone a broad spectrum of skills at high level...

I've had a lesson where my goal for the lesson was NOT to catch up to the other students, who were skidding their butts off while learning to carve... harder than it sounds if you are required to ski the exact same line...
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and that assessment is different from

Quote:
But when ski instructors analyse someone's style - surely they have to do it mainly by watching and the "look" of a pupil skiing, and then intervene using verbal prompts or drills or demonstrations that highlight issues?

how?
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ski performance has nothing to do with the "look" of the skier...

the "look" of the skier can relate to things like body type - eg easiski's black friend who had a (typical black) butt that stuck out further than a white one. He ended up needing to stick a pillow in the small of his back to get the right "look" to pass his BASI exams. He was being told he did not have the right curve to his lower back without it. The pillow changes the look of the body only, ski performance remains the same.

This is an example of analysis by "look". Analysis by ski performance would have passed that gentleman without the pillow. There is a big difference between the two. I can usually tell the difference pretty quickly when I get an instructor teaching by "look", because the feedback is a different sort and a different quality. IMO it takes a lot more experience to teach by ski performance because it takes longer and more work to develop the eye. It tends to be more common in race coaches because they have a direct measure of ski performance - so they need to discover what the fast racers have going for them as compared to the slower ones.

I filmed video for 4 coaches at our recent race camp. The four different coaches with very different backgrounds all gave very similar feedback and it all seemed very ski performance related and little focus on "look" of the skier except where it adversely affected ski performance. (Eg You can see the outside ski loses pressure 'here'. This is what causes that.)
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Quote:

I can have fun when working on skills. But it is also undoubtedly true that there are a lot of people out there without much in the way of skills who are also having as much fun, even if their style is unattractive and inefficient.

I'd agree with that, but I also think there are people NOT having that much fun, because they've done it all before - not making any progress, skiing the same way as they were ten holidays ago, getting rather bored, if truth were told, though w lovely scenery, lot to drink and good company, a holiday might still be enjoyable.

The might demand to ski different pistes every day, different resorts every holiday and a day skiing on their own would be a punishment.

Of course, in trying to improve, it needs to be in comparison to someone who "does it properly" - if I have a lesson, that'll be the instructor. If you race, there's the clock and the other racers. What I don't see is the need constantly to measure myself against other skiers - I know there are heaps who are better, heaps who are worse, and always will be. For a highly competitive personality I suppose it's different. I am keen to improve - hence the lessons and practice. But if the goal were to get ~"better than others" rather than "better than I was last week" it would be pretty pointless less you could measure yourself against someone at the same level.
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little tiger, I am probably not using "the look" in the same way as you have decided I am - which is probably my poor use of language - more a sense of a overall picture of the way the skier interacts with the terrain. But it isn't worth carrying on the discussion really - as according to you - I suspect - the correct answer for us all will always be to do what you and your coach friends do... Wink

pam w, fair points in para 1 & 2. Maybe it is a male thing but I think most blokes who are doing more than just a bit of leisure skiing do automatically compare themselves against the people they are skiing with.
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I think it is human nature to compare yourself to others, man or woman. That doesn't make it right and as this discussion has covered, can often be unhelpful.

Even knowing this for almost 20 years, I still do it. The trick is to not let that base instinct determine your experience of life. Notice you're doing it. Have a little laugh - oh there I go again - and get back to the measure you set for yourself.

This also relates to the car you drive, house you do/n't own, clothes you wear, etc....
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flowa, too true. Hope you and yours are safe and well btw.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:

This also relates to the car you drive, house you do/n't own, clothes you wear, etc....

and there again, will always be lots with better ones, lots with worse ones. Anyone who really "cares" about those things ought to get a life. (Mind you, I would quite enjoy skiing "better than" someone who was rather obviously proud of his more expensive car and scornful of mine wink

I did once deliberately set out to ski "better" in the sense of being first down every slope, than a man who had annoyed me all morning being patronising to his OH and waiting ostentatiously for her at the bottom of any tricky bits. He was quite critical and she was nervous, partly because of having a bad back. I spent the morning hanging back behind her, to be able to help if she fell, but also so she didn't think everyone was always waiting for her.

She had a break in the afternoon and I took a childish pleasure in waiting for him (very patiently.... Little Angel ) quite frequently and taking him (new to our area) on some trickier runs which I had the advantage of knowing well. Tosser. Evil or Very Mad

Kids compare themselves (their phones, their jeans, their trainers, their boobs) with others all the time and a key life skill is to teach them not to, and be confident and happy with what they've got. Adults should be setting an example.
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flowa, very well put
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 Poster: A snowHead
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Surely one of the best things about skiing is that it's inherently NOT competitive? In almost every other sport there is a scoring system where one person/team wins and the other loses. The beauty of skiing is that 2 people who are radically different in terms of skill and experience still can get down the same slope in pretty much the same time, while both having fun. This is to be celebrated. If you want to make skiing competitive you are really bastardising the whole experience and lowering it to the level of other sports. It belongs above them all of course Very Happy
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I'm surprised that apart from race times, no-one has yet mentioned the comparison against pre-set criteria. I know it is a contentious subject and one that has been done on SH's in the past, but I am find I need to know that I am doing well for me, either for someone to tell me that, or to be able to measure myself against pre-set criteria. I am one of these rather shallow folks that likes to be told 'well done' occasionally, mind you I think lots of folks like that even if they won't admit to it wink . It's OK for the kids in Ski School - as they develop they are assessed against pre-determined criteria and can work towards improving a silver qualification to gain a gold one. As adults we don't have this option, however several of the ski schools seem to have criteria that you book adult lessons against. Many of these have huge jumps in them and I always seem a bit of one level and a bit of another. The criteria that seems to fit me best out of all those I've look at (and it's more than just one or two!) is that offered by Inside Out skiing. I think I know where I sit on their scale and can measure my progression by when I think I have moved to the next level. At the very least it gives me something to aim at and some idea of which skills I should be working on next.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I think comparing most things is just normal and natural, and far from being wrong is very right. Mostly it is helpful and important, and can be a lot of fun. It's if it becomes the only thing that matters that it becomes counterproductive, very unhelpful and most unpleasant. As you get older its helpfulness naturally decreases because you've got to where you are happy or given up trying to get any further, and anyway the time comes when you simply have to accept who and what you are (how far (or not) you've got and how well or badly you've done). As its helpfulness decreases so does the inclination to compare but I certainly don't regard comparing and people who do it as immature, unenlightened, shallow or in some other way unworthy. How can I when it's simply an integral part of daily life and human endeavour.
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Plake, I think there is a difference between competition (which bores me but obsesses some) and comparison (which as slikedges says) is human and natural. But I think I agree with you basically - that skiing is for most people about transcendent experiences in a mountain environment, but you do have to have some skills to get there, and looking at and learning from others is part of the way we do that,
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When I was coaching full time I set up a detailed system for my racers to focus on personal improvement, beyond how they placed in races. There is so much pressure on kids to win. It comes from their parents, extended family, peers, friends, coaches, and even themselves. It can be so strong it can actually cause the emergence of the opposite behavior of what realizing success requires. Rather than training with tenacious dedication, it can cause them to become discouraged and quit. This childhood experience is not isolated to skiing. It's common in all activities a kid may engage in when growing up. The weight of those pressures to win, and a person's practiced reactions to it, can be carried well into adulthood.

I gave my racers a way to discard those external pressures, and focus on self. It gave them ways to measure their personal progress in real time, and all social reenforcement and recognition within the realm of our team environment was based on those personal improvements, and on the work ethic that went into achieving them. It was common during our van rides home from a race for kids who finished out of the medals to be bestowed with the most recognition and admiration. It was not necessarily the kids who won the medals that day who received the most hail. It was significant personal improvements that were recognized. At our end of the season awards ceremonies the "most improved", "hardest workers" and "biggest points drop" awards were the most coveted, and they received the greatest applause. "Best results" awards were just lead up awards to those.

It was quite amazing how effective that system was. By not focusing on winning, but rather on individual improvement, the kids stayed intensely engaged and motivated to work hard and achieve. They did so because they understood that by the manner which we defined achievement, success was within the grasp of each one of them, and they understood the road that would get them there. Parents were baffled. During dryland training in the fall they would drive their kids out 3 times a week to work out with us, and when they came back to pick them up junior looked like he/she had been run over by a truck. I'd work those kids to death, and Mom and Dad thought junior would never want to return to be abused like that again, but to their surprise they'd beg to be taken back to every training session.

The evidence of the effectiveness of this self focused system spoke for itself. Not only did our team dominate at the races, but every kid left the program as extremely high level experts in a sport they could enjoy for the rest of their lives. They also left with a system for realizing their personal potential at any endeavor they chose to engage in once they left us and moved on to sculpt their lives. I ran my race program under this system of defining and achieving success for decades, and each new generation of racers who passed through our gates thrived by it, substantiating the legitimacy of its power. Its effectiveness is not reserved to the domain of the young. Its rewards are available for everyone to reap, even the adult recreational skier.
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i suggest we bring back slalom races being determined on style points .... Evil or Very Mad
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FastMan,

'Ski to ski great. Dont ski to ski poorly'

'Love the challenge of the day, whatever it may be'

'Get out of results and into process'

Plagarised from 'A golfers mind' by Dr Bob Rotella
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Oh dear. I'm glad 'my' instructors don't do fluffyspeak.
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FastMan Shocked Shocked Shocked WTF. You do know we are mainly reticent English people here.

Err... and the OP is an adult, not in a race programme and expressed no desire for success in other areas of his life.

I think I better stay out of BzK for a while.
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stoatsbrother, for the purposes of this thread: 'oh dear' = 'Shocked Shocked Shocked WTF'
wink
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stewart woodward, nice!!! Not being a golfer, I'm not aware of Rotella, but from those quotes the mentality/process he's promoting sure does appear to possess some ditto. Not surprised.
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stoatsbrother, Hurtle, sorry you didn't get anything of value out of my post. Hope someone did. The mental and physical sides of achievement go hand in hand, and habits and baggage from childhood experience often get implanted in our psyche, and follows us into adulthood. Being this is an instructional forum, populated with people who are looking to improve their skiing, I thought it might be a worthy thing to bring up. The techniques for achievement I mentioned are extremely effective, for any person, at any age, and for any endeavor at which they'd like to advance their skills.
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FastMan, I love your technical posts, they are incredibly useful, but I am a bit allergic to 'motivational' psycho-speak I'm afraid. But that's just me - and presumably stoatsbrother. I don't know about him, but I'm something of a cynic/sceptic - nothing to be proud of. My apologies if I caused offence.
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You know it makes sense.
Sorry, me too. Although I do own a (quite old) copy of Inner Skiing Embarassed .
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Megamum wrote:
I'm surprised that apart from race times, no-one has yet mentioned the comparison against pre-set criteria.


Hmmm actually I did when I mentioned comparing to yourself... that is what those criteria measure... YOUR improvement compared to where YOU were before...

Any way carry on...
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FastMan, what Hurtle said. I have huge respect for your past and current achievements and always read your threads. May be it is a marker of the cultural differences between our 2 countries that I suspect most Brits will feel slightly queasy reading something so relentlessly....

Nope - there is no word I can use without it sounding nasty - so I won't. I do "get" the core message. It is the wrapper it is in which stunned me.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:

actually I did when I mentioned comparing to yourself.

and I did too, talking of trying to improve my own skills. I might not have used those exact words but implicitly there logically have to be "criteria". For example "can I do half a turn with a complete set of tramlines" "last turn I had a metre of smear, can I eliminate that next time" "last time I survived only 3 seconds side slipping on my uphill ski, let's get that better" or "last time I kept stopping on that bumpy run, next time I'm going to try to ski steadily picking out my line and not stop till the bottom".

All the top teams have psychologists these days, don't they? It might not be terribly British for us amateur chappies, but those who actually win stuff seem to find them useful. wink
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
FastMan, Laughing ok, granted a bit fluffy, but I'm essentially on board with your message. I always explain to my kids that though in some competitive arenas the sole purpose of participation is winning, in most and for most people the gain is to learn to compete as this is a tool to bring out the best in you. It takes a lot of time and effort to create de novo an individually applicable assessment system based on personal progress so most people don't bother and use ad hoc assessments and the results of formal and informal competitions as a surrogate. For the latter as long as each participant is aware that their victory is improvement or beating the next guy up rather than an overall win, it can work. I realise that is still externally focussed rather than internally but I think there's room for both though of course it's important to do our comparing within our own contexts, which brings us back to something I posted earlier in the thread!
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stoatsbrother wrote:
flowa, too true. Hope you and yours are safe and well btw.

All well, fortunately. Many friends touched by it though. Great tragedy. Thanks for your thougts. x
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flowa, OMG, Dr Alzheimer strikes again, I completely forgot you were in NZ. Thank goodness you're OK.
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What was so hard to understand about FastMan's post? Puzzled
He said measuring against yourself is the most satisfying way of learning as you can see concrete improvements, and focusing on your own skills will be more useful than dreaming over someone else's. The overall result is a more productive and fun learning experience.
I will note that this is very much something I did with regards to when I started Jiu Jitsu when I started at Uni - I knew that, being an uncoordinated sack of loosely connected bones, I wouldn't be doing so well, so quickly as the chap who'd done karate for 8 years. Comparing myself to other people would have just lead me to get frustrated. Being able to say "I couldn't do this last week!" was a hell of a lot better than saying "why the hell can't I do that?". It wasn't formalised or as intensely focused as what FastMan said, but the idea is the same...
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Lethal_Hamster,
Quote:

What was so hard to understand about FastMan's post?
Did someone say it was hard to understand?
I have no problem with the concept of measuring 'against myself' - it's what I do all the time, since I am not - objectively - particularly good at anything I do! wink

Edit: the usefulness - for me, anyway - in having a set of objective, increasing in skill, benchmarks (as you have (say) in music exams) before me, is to provide something to aim for. My self-motivation is not always that brilliant, a formalised scheme of learning sometimes helps in that regard.
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Rotella in his writing as a sprots psychologist primarily focused on golf is not in the slightest bit fluffy and is easy to read and full of common sense.
Must admit I did not find FastMan's, post fluffy or awkward and I'm about as reticent English as you can get. Doesn't mean I can actually see how I as a holiday skier can readily put it into practice though. Measuring personal improvement once you are on a very shallow bit of the learning curve or possibly in my case the intermediate plateau is not easy.
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Lethal_Hamster, Nothing - but you got the key points across in two modest sentences.

T Bar, Fluffy is not the word I would have used either.
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If you look at the contribution FastMan has made to this forum through his excellent thoughtful posts you should be able to forgive him a fluffy moment or two.

I certainly can. Please keep up the good work FastMan.
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