 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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What a pair of twits. Thank goodness for mountain rescue, eh? "They appeared unfazed" indeed. Double twits.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Perhaps we are all guilty to some extent, but if you are going for a decent off-piste expedition by yourself without a guide, wouldn't it be better to put the local mountain rescue number on your telephone. It also implies that they were without a piste map (I though off piste groups still used lifts to gain their height  ) as all the piste maps I've seen have had that number on them.
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I think it's hard to judge them without knowing more about it. If they didn't know the area and just dropped in assuming they'd be alright, yep, stupid. If they thought they knew the line/had a map/etc but just got lost (it can happen...) then maybe the criticism is a little unfounded. It was only last season Plake and some well known Chamonix guide (can't think of his name for the life of me now) had to be helicoptered off a mountain. Saying that, not having the moutain rescue number was idiocy though.
^^It was only the Daily Fail that claimed they were 'unfazed,' every other person/organisation quoted said they were scared and shaken up.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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clarky999, Fanfan (Dan) ?
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clarky999, you're being very charitable. They seem to have had no clue where they were - or the mountain rescue could have found them quicker. It's certainly possible to get lost even if you have a map (I know, because I've done it) but if you have the slightest clue about navigation you do know, very quickly, that you are lost and you know that you are quite close to the place you were when you knew where you were.  then you stop and think a bit.
they were obviously cold and scared out on the mountain - but unfazed once rescued and back in safety, it seems. I'd have been fazed, I'd have been riddled with embarassment and wanting to curl up and disappear down a hole after that sort of daft escapade.
I am going to continue to be unjustifiably judgemental and suggest that they're the sort of couple who would set off without looking at a weather forecast to walk up Snowdon where she would break a stiletto heel, like Adrian Mole's mother.
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Megamum, fair points... and in Switzerland you'd be right. But this is Italy - and I couldn't find the emergency number anywhere on the sella ronda piste map at the S7BB, and it turns out different bits are dealt with by different organisations. Did see a big sign saying ring 118 though... I think.
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pam w, Excellent speclative punditry in the spirit of snowheads commentary on Daily Fail stories. What worries me most about the story is the lack of detail about Dad's property value, the mention of their impressively smug middle class careers or the fact that they were lured there by an illegal Polish guide.
Fortunately they caption the photo with a reference to their hotel's star rating.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| Did see a big sign saying ring 118 though... I think. |
I saw that too: tried it twice but just ended up getting buzzed by a couple of guys with 70's porno 'taches.
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| kevindonkleywood wrote: |
| clarky999, Fanfan (Dan) ? |
Remy.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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SkiingDad, 
112 is indeed meant to be the european wide emergency number - and is good for the UK. But I'd suggest you would be better speaking directly to the local patrol rather than - as a teenage muppet with almost no Italian (probably) trying to speak to a call-centre somewhere, communicating which service you need, and in which area of the country before you even get to talk about the nature of the emergency and where you actually are. So I do what megamum suggests and load the emergency local number into my phone or make sure I have it with me.
In addition - some countries - like Italy - prefer to use different 11x numbers for different services - even for different sections of the police. Doing more research I see 112 is used for the Carabinieri, 113 for emergency police help, 115 for fire, 118 for medical emergencies etc. Now there are some bits of the sella ronda that are patrolled by the Carabinieri, and some which seem to be covered by the military, and others which seemed devoid of patrol altogether. I have no idea what the arrangements are for Sauze D'oulx - and I suspect neither do you. So which would you ring? And I still cannot find the emergency number on the Sella Ronda piste map...
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Yeah but I bet Remy didtn't call his dad first and had the PGHM number on his phone!
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You know it makes sense.
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stoatsbrother,
112 is the number I would call first in any EU country, unless specifically instructed otherwise by local information. The 112 site doesn't mention the Carabinieri, but Google confirms 112 as their number. Still, 112 is listed as a number to call in any emergency. In any case, I would expect them to be able to redirect my call.
"When calling 112 in Italy, what languages are spoken?
Calls can be answered in French and English; Spanish and German in some cases and Slovenian is available in one region"
"If I am unable to tell the 112 operator where I am, will the emergency services be able to locate me? If so, how quickly?
Yes, within 2 seconds"
But yes, if I knew the number of the local mountain rescue, I'd call that.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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They got lost in a blizzard, why the harsh criticism? How do any of you know they didnt have a piste map? Would be useless in certain weather conditions.
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Poster: A snowHead
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That's a terrible report. So much information missed out.
How much is their house worth?
Did they go to public school?
These are the important question we need answering.
Usless...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Shimmy Alcott, I agree. Piste maps generally don't give you a good picture of the area. They just show you how the lifts and pistes are connected. If you take a wrong turn, eg. due to poorly marked pistes or poor visibility, it can take a while until you realise you're not where you think you are. At that point it can be quite near impossible to identify your location on a piste map, esp. in a blizzard.
"Rescuer Roberto Teja said: ‘It’s a good job they were able to raise the alarm because with the conditions I don’t think they would have made it through the night."
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"- the area where we found them is actually very dangerous and it's easy to get lost if you are not familiar with it."
...and the "unfazed" bit only seems to apply to after they had recovered from the shock and returned to the pistes (how many days?) later. I've been stuck in a blizzard and quite frightened, but returned to the piste the next day. Perhaps I appeared "unfazed" as well?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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SkiingDad, well then I think you are a bit silly. As someone who has to phone 999/112 professionally about once a month I know how long it takes to get clear info across to a call centre. I would prefer to contact directly the local correct service where you will be able speak to someone who actually knows the area and the immediate deployable resources. I think most experienced off-piste skiers and guides I ski with would do the same...
I also suspect the location ability refers to those of land lines - rather than triangulation of UK mobiles using cell information on Italian networks in mountain settings where they will probably only be in contact with one or two cells.
Much as I love Italy and speak Italian - I think you are also being optimistic about a generic Italian call-centre's ability to respond directly and appropriately to a panicky English speaking teenager stuck in a dangerous place.
martski, indeed... 
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stoatsbrother,
Quoting myself:
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But yes, if I knew the number of the local mountain rescue, I'd call that.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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SkiingDad, we are getting into a pointless argument here. I think they did a sensible thing. Phoned someone older who they trusted who was not shaking on a hillside in the dark, and got them to act as intermediary initially.
But your point about the general ignorance of many British people of 112 is well made.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Fri 4-03-11 10:33; edited 1 time in total
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| Quote: |
How do any of you know they didn't have a piste map?
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 They were "stuck in a ravine after straying miles from their path" so the presence or otherwise of a piste map is neither her nor there, really. they were either miles from a piste (if that was where they'd intended to stay) or miles from the off piste route they'd decided to take. Daft, either way, I still reckon.
They could also see mountains and trees around them, when they reported their problem, so they weren't in some kind of zero vis white out, either.
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SkiingDad, well then I think you are a bit silly. As someone who has to phone 999/112 professionally about once a month I know how long it takes to get clear info across to a call centre
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Is there any reason to be so condescending? Thankfully I dont need to call the emergency services on a monthly basis, and wouldnt think twice about calling 999/112 in an emergency. Cant see why I should think the local Mountain Rescue would have better communication skills than a centralised service - as a mere punter.
At the end of the day the couple got a rapid response to their pleas by phoning NO emergency number. The search may have taken some time, but the reaction to the call wasnt.
My daughter has a mobile when she is on the mountains - loaded with our numbers and her grandparents and she has the generic emergency numbers, which she has memorised as I think its easier for her to type in three numbers in an emergency than get confused trying to search in her contacts for a local number.
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pam w, I think you'll find megamum brought up the subject of a piste map.
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It also implies that they were without a piste map
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I said I thought it would probably be useless in their situation.
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Shimmy Alcott, The point is a local patrol number would have got them directly through to someone who knew the area rather than a centralised call centre who had to determine first which language, then which service and then which location of that service.
The piste map (not my point) can be significant because on most piste maps I have ever seen there is a local emergency number clearly marked. Better to go direct to that number if you can. Megamum's suggestion for off-piste skiers is sound.
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stoatsbrother, yeah I don't want to argue. And I don't think calling dad was silly, just not the first option for me. Sure, I know I could count on my family as well. My main point was really that everyone really ought to know about 112.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
I think you'll find megamum brought up the subject of a piste map.
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yes, I did find that. I had read the thread. This is just a bit of fun. Nobody died. Possibly they were highly responsible off piste skiers whose guide had fallen down an earlier ravine and they were selflessly seeking help for him. Or they had thought they were on a piste but had actually been following a row of unusually shaped small bushes which they thought marked the edge. These newspaper reports always leave out vital info, don't they?
On the other hand, maybe he's the kind of guy who (like Adrian Mole's father) would have to be rescued by an RAF Sea King after drifting helplessly in the Wash on a lilo in the shape of a pair of false teeth with a slow leak in the lower left molar?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Piste map?! A piste map is definitely of use for: Working out what time the lifts close. Finding the nearest loo. Finding the nearest bar. Mopping up spilt beer.
It's sometimes of use for: finding out which pistes and lifts go where, but sometimes you can find yourself at the bottom of a piste or lift where you expected to be at the top/vice versa.
It's absolutely of no use for: navigating around back country.
I'm intrigued. How many back country skiers take a *proper* map (with contours and everything - I don't mean a glorified picture of a piste) and compass with them? I bet it's a tiny proportion.
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| James the Last wrote: |
Piste map?! A piste map is definitely of use for: Working out what time the lifts close. Finding the nearest loo. Finding the nearest bar. Mopping up spilt beer.
It's sometimes of use for: finding out which pistes and lifts go where, but sometimes you can find yourself at the bottom of a piste or lift where you expected to be at the top/vice versa.
It's absolutely of no use for: navigating around back country.
I'm intrigued. How many back country skiers take a *proper* map (with contours and everything - I don't mean a glorified picture of a piste) and compass with them? I bet it's a tiny proportion. |
Edited to add: Actually I bet it's none at all. The only proper maps of France were produced by the Ordnance Survey in preparation for the invasion. French maps are dreadful.
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You know it makes sense.
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French maps are dreadful.
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Find the IGN maps just as useful as OS maps in UK (Which are also sometimes wrong).
Don't think we know enough to comment on whether they were a bit silly or just unlucky. But I have certainly done more than one silly thing in my life.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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They should have used the maps function on the iPhone to drop a marker where they were, take a screen shot and then send it on. They could have been easy to find then.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I think it's rather nice to read a story that proves parents have uses beyond being a cashpoint and a taxi. I'll be delighted if I can call mountain rescue to save either of my Ankle Biters once they've flown the nest, on the assumption that they wouldn't get into that position just to annoy me...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| pam w wrote: |
clarky999, you're being very charitable. They seem to have had no clue where they were - or the mountain rescue could have found them quicker. It's certainly possible to get lost even if you have a map (I know, because I've done it) but if you have the slightest clue about navigation you do know, very quickly, that you are lost and you know that you are quite close to the place you were when you knew where you were. then you stop and think a bit.
they were obviously cold and scared out on the mountain - but unfazed once rescued and back in safety, it seems. I'd have been fazed, I'd have been riddled with embarassment and wanting to curl up and disappear down a hole after that sort of daft escapade.
I am going to continue to be unjustifiably judgemental and suggest that they're the sort of couple who would set off without looking at a weather forecast to walk up Snowdon where she would break a stiletto heel, like Adrian Mole's mother. |
I suspect you're probably right, but they could also have not realised they were lost 'til they got cliffed out, and then didn't like the idea of an exposed bootpack back up without crampns/etc with the weather blowing in.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| It was only last season Plake and some well known Chamonix guide (can't think of his name for the life of me now) had to be helicoptered off a mountain. |
It was Rémy Lécluse I think. He is an serious extreme skier and well known and respected in Chamonix. Still, I bet he had to forfeit a few pints to his helicopter rescuers that night.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
French maps are dreadful.
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I disagree very strongly. French and British maps are considered by geographers (or were when I studied geography, which is admittedly a long time ago) about the best in the world.
The large scale walking maps of France are excellent.
I think you'll find that many of the people who post those superb reports of off piste ski expeditions on Snowheads will have not only maps but the navigational skills to use them. There are also specific off piste guides of many areas. I know, because I've spent many a happy hour leafing through them in the "Vieux Campeur". About as close as I'll ever get to touring, I suspect.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Why does everyone keep referring to them as teenagers or kids, they are 24 and 27!!
Glad they got out in one piece, and hopefully learnt a valuable lesson about how unforgiving the mountains can be once you leave the pisted runs in a resort.
Re the earlier comment about french maps being rubbish, only if you don't know how to read a map!
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| pam w wrote: |
| The large scale walking maps of France are excellent. |
Disagree. OK, Italian maps are truly dreadful, but French large-scale maps are very poor indeed compared to our own OS maps.
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^^ Yep, was Remy LeCluse I was thinking of.
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[quote="James the Last"]
| pam w wrote: |
| ...French large-scale maps are very poor indeed compared to our own OS maps. |
I've used the 1:50,000 scale French maps (IGN and Didier Richard) for many hundreds of km of backpacking. Always found them to be excellent. We did have to resort to the 1:25,000 scale round Val D'Isere and Tignes, though. That was just down to how tighly packed the key features are in that area, though, rather than innacuracy.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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James the Last, what do you find so poor about them?
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I love the way that the Daily Mail is criticized (rightfully) for knee jerk and assumptive reporting, but then the Daily Mail article is quoted liberally when it suites peoples (knee jerk and assumptive) arguments.
No one here knows the facts, yet it doesn't stop people from drawing hard and fast conclusions, climbing aboard the highest of horses and laying down judgement.
Get a grip people.
Shimmy Alcott - The Voice of Reason.
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