Don't walk up skinning tracks

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[quote="cp1000"]

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DB,

We already have speed bumps, except they're called moguls. Oops, forgot, they're only on piste Confused

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I don't think snowshoe tracks are a significant problem - I've only registered seeing a couple - they probably just take different routes. The OP didn't mention them so I don't know why Weathercam and rayscoops are on about them as though he, or any coplainer, did.

This is also only something which matters on steep traverses as everyone must have picked up on by now.

In general a track will probably be used only a handful of times - the point is to get away from other skiers. This thread is getting out of hand.

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Bootpacking means just wearing ski boots and carrying your skis (or board). It is very hard for someone to boot-pack up a mountain unless the snow is quite hard because they sink in so much. It is a bit easier for them if they follow the zig-zag skinning tracks because the work has been partly done, but they still sink in much more than the skinners and destroy the track. Skinning a steep traverse is quite difficult and if the track has been walked on can become impossible as the skins can't grip on it.

There would be no point in skinning anywhere near a lift - you'd go up the lift. Skinning is to get you up places where there is no lift access. You probably won't cross a skinning track unless you have been skinning or snow-shoeing or boot-packing yourself.

What snowball said. Not everyone has AT bindings but many people want to get to nice fresh snow lines away from the lifts. Some see a skin track and think there's a double "benefit": "it's gotta lead somewhere interesting" and "hey, it's less effort to walk on the track than in the fresh snow".

I didn't see the OP as rude: in fact, some years ago I would not have known to avoid walking in skin tracks and I would have welcomed advice like that.

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Why not just use landmines? They'd only do it once...

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snowball, horizon, so are you saying skiers will carry their skis on their back and walk for a few hours up the zig zag traverse skin tracks in ski boots rather than a more direct route in snowshoes ? are there tourers who do this ? if that is the case then no amount of the suggestion of etiquette will put them off ... because the are clearly mad as a box of frogs Little Angel

edit - just re-read the post so this is not what we are talking about - or are we are talking about a quick romp up the hill for 10 minutes having just got off an adjacent and very public lift ?

oz5000, Head..... wall...... ouch.... and repeat... wink

You know it makes sense.

rayscoops, No, we are talking about, perhaps, 20 or 30 minutes or, at most an hour walk. The sort of thing I do sometimes if the snow is hard or too steep to skin.
Proper touring is only done by proper tourers.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

So do we all agree on a skin track, a ski boot track, a snowboarder boot track, a snowshoe track and a cartwheel track?

A snowHead

DB, I think we need a corpse dragging track for this thread Very Happy

A snowHead

This was taken in La Plagne near the top of the Cretes drag. In the distance is Mont Jovet. It took perhaps half an hour to skin up that wide shoulder catching the sunlight. There were a couple of others on touring gear but by far the majority were just booting up. I think they were skiing on to Bozel.

And this is the route South from the Refuge Fond des Fours in the Vanoise National Park. Note the snowboarder on snowshoes. He caused no damage because the track was like a motorway but I'm not sure how he managed later on.

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kitenski, that looks like a route I lapped a couple of times the other day. There's always good snow to ski, for just 25 mins of effort from the lift. Two skiers were booting it (though they never made it the whole way) making such deep holes that sections were quite tricky to skin along afterwards - so I'd entirely agree that the etiquette of not trashing tracks should be upheld.
There are plenty of people on here who have suggested that beginners shouldn't be skiing black runs (spoiling it for people wanting to go fast) even if in principle they accept that the mountains - in Europe, at least - are spaces that everyone is free to enjoy, get themselves killed in, whatever. People with skins are simply like those skiing black runs competently: they're the ones who have the technique and equipment to enjoy the areas beyond the domain. Anything else - snowshoes, or ski- or snowboard- booting - is like being a beginner on a black run (and a lot more tiring). That's nothing against snowshoers or snowboarders - some of my best friends have ridden lifts with snowboarders - it's just a statement of fact that the most efficient human-powered way around the mountains in winter is on skis with skins. Around here, in a snow-drought year, skins mean I can ski fresh powder every day, pretty much. No, I haven't tried touring on a board, but I have spent a week touring with a very fit competent split-boarder and saw for myself what a handicap it was.

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rayscoops, certainly I have been on tracks this year where there was damage was caused by boarders - tagging along I'd guess otherwise you'd expect them to bootpack directly up. This does cause problems on steeper bits as the bootholes in the tracks reduce the available surface for skins to grip.

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It's funny how many people's noses are bent out of joint because they are being asked to be a little more thoughtful about how they behave in the ''great outdoors''. Surely it's just a matter of being more considerate to other people out there. Having grown up in X-country skiing family, I have it ingrained that walking on ski tracks is wrong. I would never do it, unless there was no other way. I don't really see why skinning tracks should be any different.

But hey that's just me. I will also never cross a tarmac road on skis, as such blatant lack of respect for your bases would have attracted swift paternal wrath in my youth, despite the objective reality that I do way more damage to my base skiing rocky off-piste, than would be ever possible by walking on skis on any kind of gravelled surface. And if I see other people doing it, I still cringe involuntarily Smile

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oz5000 said...

Fifteen all...

New balls at the end of this game...

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stoatsbrother, please no, I'm not coming back to this thread if there is any more like that.
I think it is played out anyway - things are just having to be repeated for (or by) those who didn't read the other pages.

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snowball, Agreed. They should all get out and ski more.

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You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

VamP, there is a big difference between a pisted xc track and a skin trail put in by some random in a busy part of the hill.

A snowHead

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

snowball, I do not think anything has been repeated, Alan McGregor made two posts on the subject and from those it was and still is unclear exactly what the circumstances are/were that annoys him except from 'skinning tracks', is it skiers, boarders, general walkers etc who are the culprits who should be educated, is it tracks near lifts or ones out in the wilderness etc ?.

It is wishful to think that skinning tracks from the top of lifts (as a starting point to gain access to non lift serviced areas) will be respected when maybe it is the start point for tens or even a hundred people per day to launch in to the general wider back country type area, however when the people thin out and maybe head off in separate directions then maybe these tracks should become more respected. The photo above shows a flat areas that seems to be effectively the shortest route to the next/distant off piste area - almost like path really which I think people may naturally follow whether on skis or walking, which is very different to a steep vertical climb whereby the skinners are zig zagging up and a boot on that track would sink in and spoil it, although as agreed by Alan McGregor it would be doubtful that any one would follow this zig zag route unless they were on skis. If you want to educate people to have respect to informal etiquette then clarity is required imho and it has naturally taken a bit of time to get here

edit - when people talk about 'skinning' I think about steep tracks etc and yes it is easy to understand that having these damaged would be a pain and shows a lack of respect, but long flat traverses where you would find as many people with or without skis on their feet is a different matter perhaps

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This dog was prepared to make his own tracks.

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achilles, life is so uncomplicated for dogs ... food, snow, shag, sleep Very Happy

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

rayscoops, Whilst the OP was... slightly tetchy... it has since been explained very clearly and it is difficult not to feel that some people are being rather obtuse.

But for the hard-of-reading...

1) Skinning tracks are not XC tracks, and are not on or usually near pisted areas except at their very start.
2) They are typically from the top of a lift system, or the edge of a piste climbing away rapidly to access an area of off-piste skiing.
3) They do not go to places where people with no off-piste skills would wish to go.
4) They are made by skiers using AT (touring) or Telemark gear, or split-boards/access skis and go up in a zig-zag fashion. and will be at one side of a snow field if the intent is to ski back down that fiel.
5) A new track in deep soft snow takes a hell of an effort to make.
6) The tracks will usually go up as steeply as the terrain and grip from skins will allow.
7) The limiting factor of grip from skins is at least partly dependent on surface area available as steepness increases
8} Things which reduce the surface area of snow in contact with the skins - such as large boot holes in the track - can make the skinning track much more difficult to use.
9) If there is no new snowfall and not much wind a track may stay in places for sometime.
10) The track is not the natural line for a snowboarder or skier without skins to bootpack (walk) up, they would usually go more directly.
11) However some numpties might just want to tag along or follow their friends up the same line. This does not help those who follow because of 6) - 8}.
12) This is not about who "owns" terrain, but about simple consideration and politeness towards other future users.

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clarky999, I was trying to understand why too but thats the way i read the OP

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you know what if everyone was considerate and stayed away from off piste altogether....................

Help!!

Don't walk up skinning tracks

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