Don't walk up skinning tracks

A snowHead

snowball, In that case who is wrecking these special trails? If someone has a guide surely they would explain what they are that they should be avoided.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Megamum, folk without skins who want access to fresh(er) snow....

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Ohh..........I see other skiers carrying skis and walking.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

or boarders

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I don't go on those kind of open touring routes but would certainly make a big effort not to mess up cut tracks on cross country ski trails. I did feel bad when I had a huge crash and my bum wiped out a metre of so of track - but that wasn't deliberate.

I have made fresh snow shoe tracks in deep snow and yes, it is very hard work. Satisfying, though, and I'm only ever out for an hour or two of exercise and enjoyment, not actually trying to get anywhere in particular.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

pam w, don't know why, but that immediately threw up this mental image.

After all it is free

Amazing the amount of controversy this thread is generating.

Couple of people had it right further above. It's a question of etiquette, and if someone who starts venturing offpiste didn't know, they should be happy that someone is posting the info here.

I always felt that things change when you're off the beaten path in the mountain, summer or winter. With far fewer people around comes a lot more unspoken solidarity / understanding. If you're heading that way, why not keep it that way.

horizon, well...................I think there is no harm in a little education.

I have spotted the piste basher machine-made cross country tracks from chair lifts. They look a clearly 'purposefully manuafactured' thing and as such I wouldn't even consider going anywhere near them.

However, until this thread, if I had been venturing off piste and had of seen a sets of tracks across a location that were clearly man made I would have just thought - 'Oh, someone has been here before me 'and would have probably thought nothing of following approx. the same route for ease without a thought that I was wrecking something that had been 'purposefully made' unless there had been a sign posted that said, 'please don't disturb' which clearly isn't going to happen. Unless you have an awareness of their existence I don't think it would occur to me that said 'man-made track' could or would want be 're-used' and hadn't just been made by a single party wanting to get from A to B as a one off event.

AFAIK it is also the first time the subject has come up on SH's since I have been posting, so I have learned something from the thread, but I wonder how many people would follow the same train of thought to my previous knowledge without being informed otherwise?

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Hurtle,

Maybe some sub-conscious association with "heffalump"?

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Megamum, I think the OP was directed at people who actually do skin up mountains, but are thoughtless. Like you, I wouldn't have known anything about all this, for the simple reason that I'm not in that sort of terrain in the first place. My views on the whole subject are therefore irrelevant (though I was curious to know how such a track could be identified.)

pam w, no, no! I was just thinking of walking in circles in the snow. Toofy Grin

snow reports

This gives a better idea of the sort of situation where one might be annoyed to have a track messed up. It was only a relatively short skin up from the lift in touring terms (about an hour) but led to a big valley with no tracks over the top. (I think this photo was taken by Zeb, our guide - you can faintly see his tracks up, on the left - after a kick turn the the skier in shot has to do next). Zig-zag ski tracks going uphill could really only be a skinning track. That could be an earlier boot track crossing it, but more likely an animal track (chamois or bouquetin?) since I don't remember any human tracks before ours.
(Sella Ronda)

You know it makes sense.

snowball, that's a beautiful photo. maggi, Laughing

My OH said it looked very amusing from behind, though he did then need to splodge across to pick up the tracks the other side.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

This thread reminded me to look at some video footage - which I am not going to post as there is about 30mins of it - of the best run I have had in this (now finished for me) season.

Engelberg January - upto the top of the Jochstock express, bootpack a bit, traverse a bit, bootpack a bit more then skin for about 50 minutes.

Then 25 minutes of powder based fun - out of sight/sound of lifts and other skiers. Toofy Grin

Not saying I want to skin more than an hour or two more than once or twice a week - but for those who haven't tried it, there is a certain zen like calm which comes with even the uphill portion. When you know you can ski powder and variable snow, it is well worth a go.

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Well said Schuss in Boots! Laughing

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

stoatsbrother, sshhhh! There's enough people doing that now without you going advertising its advantages! We're having to skin further and further now to get those good clean lines. This week we had a 4 hour skin and someone had already got there before us (OK, fair dues, we had seen their line down the couloir before we started out). Fortunately though we weren't the group behind us that tried to take a slightly more direct line up and got taken out by an avalanche Sad

. (AFAIK they were OK, but were evaced by a heli - this was above Valmorel on Weds)

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Aha, still at it I see, GrahamN.

I go out again in 5 days but with 40 and then 50cm new snow in the last few days and more in prospect in a week or so, hopefully won't need to do any walking so protracted (if any).

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

I don't agree that I shouldn't have 'pitched in'. If a thread like this is only subscribed to by 'experts' then it only gets discussed in 'expert' terms, i.e. everyone already has understanding and the conversation is prone to occur at a level that teaches nothing to someone outside that circle. If you have the (I think I'm going to say) 'guts' (particularly knowing what sort of reaction it often gets) to ask a question, that clearly isn't based on prior knowledge or understandin,g at the very least it often drops the conversation to a level that become more understandable to those outside the 'elite circle'. As has often been discussed on SH's, if 'experts' want to have an 'experts only' conversation then I think they ought to create themselves an 'experts only' board to have those discussions in - and a 'dry' old place I bet that would be!.

After all it is free

Megamum, I agree, keep asking your questions, if no-one questioned anything we wouldn't get anywhere!!

Megamum, I agree (so long as people ask questions and remain civil, and I've never known you not to be). This isn't TGV

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kitenski, +1 The OP makes a reasonable request - snowHead

takes an interest - gets slagged off.

Normal service for site - a few with their heads up their ars*s think they own it Laughing

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Megamum, I don't have a problem with you asking questions - in fact I completely agree that you should be freely able to - as should we all. My point was that you expressed an opinion on something you clearly didn't understand.

In fact, you asked a question in the opening line of your very first post, a good one. But you didn't bother to wait for an answer which would have enlightened you to the fact that you were barking up the wrong tree from the off. You then went on to post an opinion (based on your incorrect assumption) and then later decided to play 'Devil's Advocate' (sic) - all whilst still remaining unaware of the type of tracks to which the thread was referring.

Being an 'expert' has nothing to do with this - surely it's a matter of pure manners to ensure that you understand the thread before posting an opinion (that's posting an opinion - not to be confused with posting a question). So let's not try throwing that old chestnut out of the pram eh? wink

Maybe I'm a lone voice, but I personally find it rather irritating - and I don't think anyone would consider me even close to being either a) an 'expert' or b) a member of the 'elite circle'.

snow reports

Schuss in Boots, By the next post below my first in this thread I was aware of and understood what was being discussed - pictures were posted, and understanding rapidly followed. All further postings were with that knowledge and I stand by what I put in them. I might respectfully suggest that you have not read and followed the thread.

In any event I am as entitled to post an 'opinion' (if that is what you are going to call it), right or wrong though it might be, as you are. If you are 'irritated' by that then I am sorry, but I don't think your 'irritation' is my problem. In fact your 'irritiation' is probably as a result of YOUR opinion of what I put. Now, I might be a lone voice, but whether or not I find your response 'irritating' is entirely up to me, but I am going to 'politely' not say one way or another wink

A. I don't think at any point I stated that the OP was wrong,
B. I was not the only one that didn't comprehend what the OP was going on about, and
C. some posters categorically seemed to think that the OP was definitely being somewhat 'elitist' in what they had put and were not hesitant in making that feeling known.

I was trying to explore the subject and gain understanding along the way, both aims were accomplished and from the sounds of the responses above I don't think those in the 'know' took too much offence - I was carefull (as I do try to be) to try not not to cause any.

To the three posters above you: snowHead

Schuss in Boots, tbf, she does have a disclaimer in her sig wink

You know it makes sense.

Megamum, sorry, but are you a comedy character or are you for real?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

So is it terribly bad form to leave tracks in powder like mine:

S
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If so, I apologise to all and sundry.

A snowHead

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1361850/snowshoeing-in-skin-tracks

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

One solution might be to have a skin track and a snowshoe track. The separation of traffic on both makes it easier for the different methods of snow transport. Maybe one day you will change from snowshoes/boots to skining and will reap the benefits too (or tuther way round). It's basically down to the first snowshoer to be brave/considerate/gnarly (please delete as applicable) enough to put a new track that other snowshoers would use. This is a track he/she would have to put in if the ski tourer wasn't there first anyway. Live and let live/play.

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

maggi, +1 on that.

Just a case of I'm more important than you and my sport should be given priority on the hill.

Likemaggi, says manners cost nothing and are more likely to result in people having some consideration.

After all it is free

Just been reading this thread again and having a chuckle after what I've encountered over the last couple of days!

Out here in Serre Ch and it's still holiday season and the place is packed. Only did one morning on the piste and called it a day and in the afternoon took the dog for her first ski tour (see dog ski tour thread) and the Mrs for her first time on skins even though she's done a fair amount of vertical in the past with snowshoes carrying a snowboard.

Where we left from is one of the main starting points, so you don't just get hard core tourers but every man woman and dog starting out for what could be just a Sunday afternoon walk and the trail was just a mash mess of tracks. It was not a problem.

After 45 mins or so so it was not so bad, and once the angle of attack became steeper so the snowshoes kept to their tracks and the skiers in theirs.

This is what I can't understand about this thread, once you're skinning be it hard early morning ice / snow or powder the route a ski tourer takes is way different to someone on snowshoes where it matters ie in steeper terrain - a ski tourer will traverse the slope at an uphill angle on their edges making tracks, a snowshoer can not follow in these tracks due to the adverse camber, it's just too uncomfortable for them as my Mrs can testify, even a split boarder can not follow as their skis are too wide!

So I really think that the opening post was bitching for bitching's sake!

Yesterday was quite interesting as some people have asked the question why are their not different tracks for snowshoers and x-country etc?

We went up to the Col D'Izoard see http://www.anotherharddayattheoffice.co.uk/weekone.html and the route follows the road that in the summer is full of bikes doing one of the classic climbs. Where it leaves from is a very popular X-country centre, and like downhill x-country has varying degrees of piste classification from easy (flat) to hard (steep) etc

So there is a 8km piste in effect all the way up on one side of the snow covered road and that is divided by a ridge of snow and on that side is where walkers and snow shoers go, even with signs telling you!

To miss out on taking the road you can in effect cut the hairpins out by taking a more direct route through the trees and this really was a mish mash of tracks, even when it was steep as so many people had been up it.

Once up at the refuge to get to the Col you either carried on the road/piste or followed tracks, by then it was powder and again the ski tourers took a different route to snow shoes. And coming down was able to lay some sweet tracks of the right sort Smile

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When it's not so steep then skiers will go straight up, a touring binding will have three heel lift settings that will enable you to skin up ever increasing steepness if that makes sense, then once you can't skin up straight you revert to traversing across the slope and have to then kick turn to go back on yourself.

I toured with a snowboard for around ten years along with mates on skis, first with snowshoes and then I had mini approach skis so I could follow in the their tracks. On the snowshoes we'd pretty well always take a different route to the skiers, as I've said a couple of times before is at lower altitude on the invariable approach path that always seems to exist that we were together. Once out on the "face" then we'd cross the skiers tracks as we went straight and they zigzagged across.

Reason I changed to approach skis was that using a heart rate monitor I could see the difference between hiking on snow shoes and gliding on skins!

Sun's trying to make an appearance now, not too sure what to do, don't think it's a touring day though!

Help!!

Don't walk up skinning tracks

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