 Poster: A snowHead
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Just for those of you who have not been told ...
It is considered extremely poor form, if not down right rude, to walk up a skinning track. Someone has gone to considerable effort to put that track in, and you will destroy it if you walk up it, especially at steep bits or on corners. Make your own walking path. If someone has already put a boot line in, then use this, not the skinning track. I am fed up of putting a track in, then taking clients the next day, to find the track has been destroyed by lazy or ignorant people walking up it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Is the mountain in question Public or Private ?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Alan McGregor, what does a skinning track look like?
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I can see the annoyance from the perspective of the OP, but as pointed out would I know what one looked like? I'm currently envisaging the two thin tracks that you see the cross country skiers use in the Olympics? In addition I would be unaware that it had taken 'effort' to create (I assume the first set of skis up the mountain creates it?), also that the intent is to use said 'track' again - if set of skis cut's the track in the first instance how is the walker not to know that this was not a 'one-off' trip up the mountain? Finally, I assume that most tracks are destroyed by new snow, so there is nothing to say that they will even be evident the next day.
The OP is useful in now telling me that these things ought to be respected, but I had no way knowing before and, I imagine, neither do 99.9% of the population that 'destroy' them, the OP might find it annoying and I can see how that might be the case, but I doubt the 'damage' or implied 'rudeness' is intentional.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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It certainly can screw up a track if a lot of people have walked up it. . And usually it isn't the natural line for walking. But we don't own the hill.
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| Quote: |
I'm currently envisaging the two thin tracks that you see the cross country skiers use in the Olympics?
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Not far off, just picture the tracks a set of skis going uphill might make in the snow, often pole marks on each side. Breaking trail the first time is the hard bit, if someone boots up it and churns it all up then it's going to be harder work for the next tourer - although I wouldn't have thought many people expect to not have to break trail. For me the attraction of touring is getting to places that others haven't tracked out yet.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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this is nearly as amusing as those people who complain about heliskiers spoiling their lines after they spent all day skinning up somewhere..
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So lets just ask how we all know how these are 'multi use' rather than single use tracks?
I suggest you mark the snow staining the snow a dull yellow colour as you go. you could also fit signposts at the start and end of the tracks explaining that they need preserving and nets to stop cross traffic.
If you are breaking trail somewhere that busy you would probably be better using uplift anyway.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Alan McGregor wrote: |
Just for those of you who have not been told ...
It is considered extremely poor form, if not down right rude, to walk up a skinning track. Someone has gone to considerable effort to put that track in, and you will destroy it if you walk up it, especially at steep bits or on corners. Make your own walking path. If someone has already put a boot line in, then use this, not the skinning track. I am fed up of putting a track in, then taking clients the next day, to find the track has been destroyed by lazy or ignorant people walking up it. |
Yes I'd be well fed up too, just don't get the respect you deserve these days... I don't know.....
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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We've had even worse, pay loads of money for Heli in Sweden (Riksgransen) start the descent, get into a nice bowl only to discover the mountain equivalent of chav jetskiers (snow mobiles) have been up there before trashing the slope!
The only way is to get as far as possible away from people - in the winter months National Parks are a good option, or here
I've done a fair bit of touring, both snowboarding & skiing and very rarely will people on snowshoes follow a skinning track*, the angle/camber just doesn't work if on snowshoes, even split boards make their own tracks as ski tracks are to thin.
And if you're boot slogging then you take a steeper angle, so has to be said really can't see what his problem is?
Maybe he's just discovered ski touring - he'll be on about people snoring in huts next 
*ok for the first half hours climb where you are following a simple track maybe through the trees etc
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My apologies, my OP came across a bit stronger than I had intended. I'd had a rather frustrating morning !
My point was really an educational one, to those people that don't realise the affect booting up a skinning track has.
Yes you do have to re-do it every time it snows (not an issue this season !) which makes it even more frustrating when people destroy it.
In deep or heavy snow, or across a steep slope, it takes considerably more time & effort to put a new track in.
Mountains are public, but with that access and ability to do as you choose, comes a responsibility not to spoil it for other people.
Here in Switzerland, heli-copters are only allowed to drop in certain places. If you choose to skin up towards one of the relatively few drop zones, you can't really complain if people are dropped above you and ski your pitch. Go somewhere else where the helicopters are not allowed to drop.
As has been pointed out, a skinning track isn't usualy the natural line for walking anyway.
And I totaly agree, gentlemen should move a bit further afield before making yellow snow.
They have now built an igloo urinal at the top of the Grands Montets in Chamonix because it was getting so disgusting up there.
Whether you consider booting up a skinning track reasonable behaviour is a matter of personal choice.
I was merely trying to explain to those that might not have realised, that some people don't consider this reasonable behaviour.
Believe me, I am sufficiently lazy that if I could get to where I want to go with uplift, I would !
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You know it makes sense.
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... and I've been touring over 30 years
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Weathercam,
That is fabulous, thanks for posting. Hope you have a good tour yourself.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Hurtle, +1 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Alan McGregor wrote: |
Believe me, I am sufficiently lazy that if I could get to where I want to go with uplift, I would !
............. and I've been touring over 30 years |
Well yes, you really come across as a seasoned ski tourer, I don't think 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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As a matter of etiquette I completely agree it's not the done thing to boot pack up a skin track.
If people don't know then fair enough, (education, education, education) but I've seen guides doing it with clients and that's just plain wrong.
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I have lived out in Austria for 5 years now... not into touring as yet as my time is limited when out so I like to cover as much up as possible!
Although I have never boot-packed up a touring track (and I can recognise them too), I never knew the awkwardness it could cause.
You are quite right that educating peeps out on the snow will help to prevent this issue.... BUT the OP does make me want to go out in a minute... find a touring line and then just jump all over it!...Alan McGregor, please don't become a teacher!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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His first post was a bit strong but point is taken. Thought the point of skinning up was to go where no one else has gone but it turns out they like to have there own piste the same as me except theirs goes up instead of down!
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Where does skinniquette stand on making the trail gradually wider and wider, splitting the trail so each ski goes either side of a tree, or taking it off into a little closed loop, waiting for it to fill with tourers going round and round, then playing 'The Locomotion' loudly...
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| Quote: |
Just for those of you who have not been told ...
It is considered extremely poor form, if not down right rude, to walk up a skinning track. Someone has gone to considerable effort to put that track in, and you will destroy it if you walk up it, especially at steep bits or on corners. Make your own walking path. If someone has already put a boot line in, then use this, not the skinning track. I am fed up of putting a track in, then taking clients the next day, to find the track has been destroyed by lazy or ignorant people walking up it.
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+1
Bad conditions can make cutting a track or a traverse quite tricky. I've been out and had guides put the fat blokes right behind him in order to smooth out the traverse to make it easier for the following people. To have someone stomp out the good work is poor.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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here's a nice one we used end of Jan...
In all seriousness, if someone walks up it, and leaves footmarks, don't you just glide over them?? Or do they normally trash it rather than just leave footmarks??
regards,
Greg
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The problem is, tha tthe line you take whilst skiing is the most direct line and the line of least resistance; this will also be the line of a walker or snow shoer. Do you ecpect them to take a harder route on ridges etc just to save your tracks for future off piste forrays? The mountains are there for us all to enjoy. so I see it as part and parcel of earning your turns.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| RUGBY PETER wrote: |
| Thought the point of skinning up was to go where no one else has gone but it turns out they like to have there own piste the same as me except theirs goes up instead of down! |
Well there can be a route repeatedly used to get to a col from where you spread out to your bit of the mountains - here's an example leading from a mountain hut:
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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On a gentle track like those depicted above it doesn't make much difference (though it can disrupt the energy-efficient simple slide forward of the ski a bit) but on a steep traverse you are struggling a bit to keep traction and it does make a difference. Where there are boot holes there is no contact with the snow. In particular at the places where skinners do kick turns it is necessary to make a good platform for the skis and twist the body to place the skis for the line to continue uphill, one ski at a time, which is very difficult for those not very expert at it, especially if lack of traction is letting the ski slide backwards when you have one ski in the air. People quickly use up their energy on non expert turns and a bit of churning up of the track can make a big difference.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Fri 4-03-11 12:35; edited 1 time in total
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Being a long-time backcountry snowboarder (and therefore doing a lot of touring using snowshoes or plain old bootpack) I have some sympathy, but not a lot. I know people get all precious about skinning tracks (especially when it's "their" track) but do you realistically expect someone to make their own life 10 times harder bootpacking through fresh snow compared to making yours about 10% harder skinning through fresh snow?
Putting in a bootpack or snowshoe trail in deep snow is a brutal, exhausting experience, a new skinning track really isn't that bad.
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You know it makes sense.
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Perhaps I should admit this doesn't affect me much since I'm most often with a guide and it is he who usually makes the new track
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| stevomcd wrote: |
Being a long-time backcountry snowboarder (and therefore doing a lot of touring using snowshoes or plain old bootpack) I have some sympathy, but not a lot. I know people get all precious about skinning tracks (especially when it's "their" track) but do you realistically expect someone to make their own life 10 times harder bootpacking through fresh snow compared to making yours about 10% harder skinning through fresh snow?
Putting in a bootpack or snowshoe trail in deep snow is a brutal, exhausting experience, a new skinning track really isn't that bad. |
Spoken like a true snowboarder...
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
Spoken like a true snowboarder...
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 Hey, I ski too (and ski-tour, and split-board tour). It's just all a bit precious and sanctimonious. Just think of all those times you've benefitted from someone else's track and not had to put any work in.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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No, skinners wouldn't follow a boot track - better to start a new one.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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If it's a clean skinning track wouldn't snowshoes be too wide?
On the route out of Les Avals in Courchevel there's a long skate up a x-country route. As a matter of courtesy I try to avoid skating across the x-country tracks. If you have the choice surely it's better to avoid disturbing the trails that other mountain users rely on?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Seems like some harsh responses for someone asking for a little courtesy.
Do you cut into the queue in the snow park of people waiting to hit a jump? Nope, 'cos that would be rude.
Do you watch some guys build a nice jump off piste and then just nail it over it before they have had their fun on it? Nope, 'cos that would be rude.
Do you get annoyed when the French push right into the lift queue? Yep, 'cos that's rude.
I don't think anyone is advocating some sort of Jihad on walking up skinning tracks, but a little courtesy goes a long way...
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Megamum, there's a certain amount of etiquette to observe. Same as cutting neat lines in vigin powder. If everyone kept close to tracks already made then the fresh stuff is kept fresh for longer. My guide was fuming this year when, as he was about to take a pickie of me in front of our lovely double tracks, a gang of 4 hoolies (who's followed us from the lift and under the rope) completely wrecked a large amount of virgin powder by cutting right across the slope in long traverses, thereby spoiling it for anyone following.
Etiquette is, of course optional. So are manners.
ish303, spot on.
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what utter bigyerself-up shite
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| Quote: |
In all seriousness, if someone walks up it, and leaves footmarks, don't you just glide over them?? Or do they normally trash it rather than just leave footmarks??
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Not so much of an issue on flat tracks, but it can make a big difference on steep traverses.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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In terms of trails that
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other mountain users rely on
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I think the majority of Joe/Josephine Public would not know that others 'relied' on them. Also I think 'relied on' is a bit strong, at the end of the day the tracks can always be re-cut can they not?
I would now be quite prepared to do my best to avoid said tracks on the basis of new found knowledge, but I think I would have walked in them without a second thought without reading the above and genuinely not been aware that it was not the 'done thing' to do. Perhaps if it is so important it should be added to the 'skiers code' or the other 'ski-courtesy' things that you often see printed.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| I think the majority of Joe/Josephine Public would not know that others 'relied' on them. |
I think Joe/Josephine Public really should have an inkling as to what they were if they were walking off-piste or skating uphill on a x-country trail.
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| at the end of the day the tracks can always be re-cut can they not? |
Not easily. X-country tracks are cut by machine (a piste-basher with an special attachment at the back) and skinning trails are made by hard work.
It's not so important that yet another rule needs to be added to the FIS code, but a bit of common sense and common courtesy should be applied, IMO.
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FAQ
I think I'm subscribing to the view that folks should be able to go where they like. Lets put it this way if the OP went to cut a new track and saw that walkers had been their first and had started the job would you go over their tracks as being an easier way forwards than cutting a new tracks (assume for a moment that it was - I accept the fact that it might not). Sort of boot on other foot idea, esp. if you didn't know that it takes a lot of effort to cut a walking track? Nothing wrong with a bit of Devil's Advocate here I think. 