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Skiing Europe/Chris Reynard - Children's ski holiday left in ruins.

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
teacher reference deleted


Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 17-04-11 10:28; edited 1 time in total
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
With regard to the "Free trips" if I understand his website correctly you only become eligible for those trips once you have paid for the one you are booking, they seem to be a way of inspecting alternate resorts for next season, so not really free, indeed anyone not taking the trips would in effect be subsidising those that were.

Also he may have had an arrangement with the hotels he was using whereby they would offer a weeks stay for a number of teachers in the quiet season as part of the deal with SE.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
teacher reference deleted


Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sun 17-04-11 10:29; edited 1 time in total
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Simple Google search with no other criteria than "Inspection trips for school teachers" came up with this sample on just page 1:

http://www.discover-the-world.co.uk/school/trip/en/general-info/teacher-inspection-trips.html

http://www.yourstsbooking.co.uk/inspection_visits.asp

http://www.travelbound.co.uk/school-trips-inspection-visits

http://www.pgl.co.uk/PGLWeb/Schools/Teacher-guide/arrival.htm

http://www.thinkingcorner.com/item28.htm

http://www.encounters-europe.com/why-choose-encounters-europe

http://www.skiplan.co.uk/safety_management_system.asp

http://www.rayburntours.com/school-ski-trips-info-inspection-visits.php

http://www.club-europe.co.uk/school-ski-trips/site/healthandsafety/freeinspectionvisits.php

Even the DoE advise that when taking students to a potentially challenging environment, that the organiser takes a preview visit to evaluate all the services on offer.

The teachers are in a such a position that you leedsunited as an organiser of a group of families are not. They are "in loco parentis" and therefore answerable before a court of law, should a parent or guardian of a participant feel that their child suffered as a result an action taken or sanctioned by the party leader or someone acting on their behalf. You with your group of parents with their own children do not even remotely come under this category.

I paid a reduced fee several times to different companies to participate in inspection visits - the money being refunded if I booked with the company . Only my costs were refunded, not those of my partner or any colleague travelling with me. Nor would I expect that to be done. Mostly I had to travel alone in my holiday time, usually at Christmas as this is when the companies had excess accommodation that they could offer. The other time these offers were made available were at the end of the season, Easter, again only when there was excess capacity.

I also participated in inspection visits for Field Study Centres (I also taught up to A Level Geography and Geology) and Adventure Centres both in the UK and in Europe as I was responsible for Adventure sports in our school. This was the brief we had before we could sanction any trip for any age group travelling under the auspices of our school name.

I retired from teaching in 1993, so quite a while back and before the tightening up of a lot of the HSE guidelines and legislation that make organising trips these days the thankless task it has become. The only reason teachers continue to organise these trips is that the benefit to the students far outweighs any of the hassles caused by the mindless bureaucracy dreamt up by idiots that have no idea of what is involved.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Samerberg Sue wrote:
Simple Google search with no other criteria than "Inspection trips for school teachers" came up with this sample on just page 1:

http://www.discover-the-world.co.uk/school/trip/en/general-info/teacher-inspection-trips.html

http://www.yourstsbooking.co.uk/inspection_visits.asp

http://www.travelbound.co.uk/school-trips-inspection-visits

http://www.pgl.co.uk/PGLWeb/Schools/Teacher-guide/arrival.htm

http://www.thinkingcorner.com/item28.htm

http://www.encounters-europe.com/why-choose-encounters-europe

http://www.skiplan.co.uk/safety_management_system.asp

http://www.rayburntours.com/school-ski-trips-info-inspection-visits.php

http://www.club-europe.co.uk/school-ski-trips/site/healthandsafety/freeinspectionvisits.php


I haven't looked at all those links, but taking the Skiplan one for example, they clearly define it as an inspection visit with just 1 night b&b provided. Why would an inspection visit require any longer than this, certainly not a week. Travelling from the UK to the alps, with potentially a long transfer etc, for just one night, would not be considered a jolly in my eyes, whereas a full week ?!?
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It varies - you will see others offer the chance to shadow a group for the duration of a trip.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I understand that SE cancelled their 'teachers and friends' trip last December at short notice which would have incorporated many preview visits. The website describes the Feb half term one to Cortina as having 'sold-out' when it clearly didn't run at all! (No Italian resort manager for one thing). I was offered a 'free' place on one in Dec but declined because by the time I'd booked and paid for my family too, it would have been cheaper to go on a late deal with a mainstream TO like Thomsons (and fly). I can't imagine many teachers leaving their entire family behind over that period especially with long coach journeys on top. So, IMO, the whole 'free inspection trip' is a bit of a money maker too, and a way of filling up spare seats on a coach already going somewhere on a family and friends trip. (@ £459 each) I was offered the chance to do a 3 day inspection visit instead (flying) but had to fund it all myself, despite having booked and paid for a whole party of teenagers!

People have criticised teachers doing these visits as not being able to spot the fact that not everything was 'rosy' as far as SE was concerned. I wouldn't go as far as to say they were wined and dined, but obviously all SE staff knew it was important to be as professional as possible from a sales point of view, so why would they try and put people off? From my own experience, I would describe them as people who were passionate about skiing, but perhaps a little disorganised in some cases - certainly not enough to ring alarm bells!
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
So there we are, the superior minds and intelligence of leedsunited and rayscoops have worked it all out for us. This whole affair is because us poor parents, being creatures of lower intelligence, were hoodwinked by teachers in pursuit of the best and longest skiing holidays were bribed by Mr Reynard in contravention of some Act from the 19th century and all know standards of public decency and morality to pay lots of money to Mr Reynard for holidays which if they hadn't been enjoying themselves too much on the ski slopes they would have noted were clearly a little bit iffy . The local authorities were made to put Reynard on their approved lists as a result of recommendations from the corrupt freeloading teachers . The teachers, then for some yet to be explained reason, then involved themselves in a complex scheme across several schools whereby they cancelled the holiday contracts without any reference to Mr Reynard, who was struggling in difficult economic times, and if given the chance would have been able to muddle through and provide the holidays – and fooled all the parents by saying that the cancellations were down to Mr Reynard, who in the days before he reformed had had some problems and therefore could be easily blamed for the failures. Of course this hypothesis is supported by a detailed factual analysis which proves its truth and veracity, and any other evidence can immediately dismissed and ignored because it is provided by those who are clearly involved in vendetta against the poor Mr Reynard and are in league with the said alliance of greedy teachers.

As we all know leedsunited and rayscoops both have IQs of above 150 and so their hypothesis is obviously correct.
http://www.flayme.com/troll/quiz.shtml

And no they should not be labelled as teacher bashers as they most definitely do not have a bee in their bonnet about school ski trips
http://www.snowheads.co.uk/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=48333

Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
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Quality Laughing but it is because some one at a school wrote a cheque for £100,000 of other people's money to a man called Reynard who has a very questionable business track track record, with out it seems carrying out the necessary due diligence for such a large level of expenditure and Reynard subsequently failed to provide the services for the money.

If some one in a small private company had made such a pruchase, they would have been sacked for gross negligence by now.
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rayscoops,
Quote:

If some one in a small private company had made such a pruchase, they would have been sacked for gross negligence by now.



Perhaps that is why they are teachers rather than purchasing managers in small businesses. I have never said that school/LEA purchasing processes shouldn't be looked at, in fact quite the opposite. But doing so will do nothing to deal with the current mess, although it will reduce the chance of future messes.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
http://www.tavistockcollege.devon.sch.uk/DCCski_trip_press_release.pdf

Quote:
DEVON COUNTY COUNCIL is to step in to reimburse Tavistock families following a cancelled ski trip. The authority announced today that it would enable Tavistock College to refund the families pending any legal action and negotiations with insurers...“We are able to make an immediate payment to the college to cover the students' refunds and I believe this is the right course of action to take. “We will then work with the college to recover this money in due course." Tavistock College principal Helen Salmon said: “We have been working closely with Devon County Council following this very unfortunate and difficult event. “The college will be carefully reviewing its own procedures and we are working with the county council on its investigation.


http://www.tavistockcollege.devon.sch.uk/update.asp

Quote:
Dear Parents,

I am delighted to inform you that Devon County Council have agreed to reimburse you for the payments for the 2011 Ski Trip. This is fantastic news as you will get your money back far more quickly than we had anticipated. I have worked closely with Devon County Council to secure this positive outcome. I know you will be very pleased this has happened. I would also like to assure you however, that we will be having a full investigation into what went wrong and will come back to you on that in due course. Cheques will be issued to you early next week.

Please see the attached press release from Devon County Council (23k pdf document).

Kind Regards
Helen Salmon
Principal


Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Fri 15-04-11 18:44; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Stephen101, I think there is a middle way here... I don't really blame the parents here, but I have previously said here that I felt that schools - in this internet age - may not have done enough due-dilligence and research. Reliance on an LEA list is not really enough.

But I don't think the interventions of rayscoops and Leedsunited are terribly helpful in this particular thread, which may be a resource parents and kids who are not regular snowHeads and who have been shafted by SE reach via Google. GrahamN was spot on re Rayscoops modus operandi. Some of us have stopped debating with him. Ignore it and move on.

Wayne's new thread may be a better place for these new discussions on school trips. As I said there - I too wonder about the choices of TOs, hotels and destinations some schools make. It has been one of the things that has stopped me letting my eldest go on his school ski trips.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
You are as bad as me Stephen101. You weren't going to feed them but couldn't resist.

Problem is, trolls don't recognise irony.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
stoat of the dead, I agree- if one good thing is to come out of this it will be an improvement in the schools processes for purchasing trips and other things. Especially given that many schools are getting more independence from LEAs and also because the package holiday industry is likely to go through a lot of changes in the future as the trend to direct buying is bound to intensify (some of the margins these companies charge are rather high). It should be remembered that some LEAs didn't approve SE - so there may well be some good practice for others to follow without a wholesale reinvention of the wheel. I did say here or another thread that there is probably a good business opportunity for someone to provide a decent financial due diligence service to school purchasing managers, rather than having thousands of schools doing their own different and imperfect thing (which may be the real reason why SE was able to get away with it for so long)
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Stephen101, Hope you stick around after this
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
whilst Tavistock school have done right thing and reimbursed the parents (who had given them their money) with the support by Devon CC, do the Independent/Acadamy schools like Tonbridge have a Council/LA to do the same ?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Steve101 please stop being so condascending and you trying to relate these freebies to the commercial sector is a joke, the private sector has its own checks and balances in relation to freebies.

It would appear that the leftie socialist tree huggers on this thread are struggling to grasp this fact and trying to bury your heads in the sand to it being only DE & CR's fault. Oh and thanks for guessing my IQ, the Daily Mail must really be working.

For those who have paid for their trips great and i applaud you, question is why are the LEA's or school not paying for it?

For those who have not paid for it out of school funds then you are in breach of goverment policy in regards to the reciept of inducements and gifts, and even more so by actually getting your trip refunded by booking with the TO in question. Rayscoops has already provided the links to the neccesary regulations. Just accept this to be fact and move on.

You can continue to throw sticks and stones but it will not detract from the fact that certain people could have done a far better job in due diligence than was carried out and a lot of people in this debacle are now washing their hands of any responsibility.

"SS" you where a teacher in 1993 and yes the HSE has ruined any chance of things just happening, i bet you where allowed to throw chalk at students, never did any harm.

It appears that everybody has to be wrapped in cotton wool but i have yet to be shown any evidence and now i am losing count the amount of times this has been asked "show me where it is a legal requirement" for these trips to take place, all the links you have provided are to TO's who are using a smart bit of marketing to make you think that you must go on one of these trips, not one of them states any statutory regulations to relate to the need for a trip. There is a huge difference between "reccomended" and "statutory requirement"

Troll rant over
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
leedsunited wrote:

Troll rant over


Just that one, or are we going to blessed by silence altogether?
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I have been struggling to understand why all schools have not been bailed out in the way Tavistock school has been by its County Council, but it just dawned on me, some schools do not have the likes of Devon CC to bail them out and pay the parents back - they simply do not have that get-out-of-jail card ! and that is why some on here have been protective with respect to the school's role in this, arguing that schools are not responsible (in the first instance at least) for paying back the parents, that they have little culpability, that the schools were not a de-facto travel agent, that SE were on an approved list so no in-depth checks were required to be carried out by the school, that schools did not cancel the trip etc etc., and finally pushing the singular option of a formula for getting the money out of Reynard (before paying the parents back) which may be like getting blood out of a stone.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
rayscoops, you may be right, in the end though, the schools are the ones who took the money for the trips and they are the ones who will have to pay back that money, how long that process takes is another matter Sad
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D G Orf, it is a sad state of affairs for sure, but the short fallings of all of those concerned can not be allowed to be swept under the 'its all Reynard's fault' carpet.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
rayscoops, I sort of agree, however I think that the way the schools chose his company bears investigation, for instance I have heard in the past that some LEAs will not allow schools to purchase things from companies not on their list of approved suppliers, I have no idea if this applies to trips, but if it does then surely it is beholden to the LEAs to make damn sure that the people on those lists are reputable, especially when they are earning 100's of thousands of pounds, I've certainly been alarmed to hear that all a company has to do in some cases is pay a fee to the LEA to get onto that list
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
ccl wrote:
leedsunited wrote:

Troll rant over


Just that one, or are we going to blessed by silence altogether?
Richard Cranium rolling eyes rolling eyes rolling eyes rolling eyes


Last edited by After all it is free Go on u know u want to! on Sat 16-04-11 14:29; edited 1 time in total
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Ok lets put this in its simplist form:

1, SE has gone bust, however this has happened is now irrelavant, and again for all the children effected it is very sad but some people on here need to understand that all the schools are going to be at the bottom of a long list of creditors and are not going to get their money back any day soon. shi* happens like this everyday unfortunately.

2, Don't be putting any bets on the insurance companies riding to the rescue, they will as in all cases look at every single avenue possible to avoid paying out and it could be that point 4 & 5 below may well come into play along with lots of other caveats they can find.

3, Schools took the money from the parents, made contract with SE so should refund money to parents, no arguments or hiding behind legal argument and debate or the old chestnut of we have no money.

4, Those responsible in LA for vetting and carrying out due diligence of supplier should be at best disciplined at worst fired, need to trim some fat from the over bloated public sector anyway.

5, Those teachers who are guilty of breaching goverment policy on receiving junkets and have been found to have had their fingers caught in the cookie jar should be established and at best disciplined and at worst fired, this is no different to the recent MP's expenses scanda, they tried to justify their actions based on reccomendations and so called established guidance however they failed miserably.

6, CR should dragged in front of the courts and jailed for a very long time.


Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Sat 16-04-11 14:07; edited 1 time in total
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leedsunited, heartily agree with Number 6 but I wouldn't take odds on him getting away with another slap on the wrist
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D G Orf, unfortunately I think you may be correct on that result Crying or Very sad
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
leedsunited, there may yet be a bond/insurance etc for the schools to claim against to mop up the financial mess, although I am unsure as to its status

edit - oops noticed you covered that !
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
rayscoops wrote:
leedsunited, there may yet be a bond/insurance etc for the schools to claim againts to mop up the financial mess, although I am unsure as to its status


rayscoops As many have said before this really is a financial mess which is not the parents concern hence my belief that they should be refunded forthwith from whatever funds neccesary, maybe some of the millions being sent to overseas eductaion schemes could be used!
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
CR is a Catholic and Christian so I would hope his conscience would cause him to sell the big house and pay the schools back - but i'm not holding my breath
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
leedsunited,

Quote:

i bet you where allowed to throw chalk at students, never did any harm.


Clearly in your case this is not true. I can forgive the numerous spelling and grammatical mistakes, but your ability to read and understand views other than your own, and then to misrepresent those views in terms of black and white when their views have a nuance, that you are clearly incapable of, clearly demonstrates that you were not listening while in class.

Since you consider all the teachers concerned guilty of bribery and numerous other breaches of the law - can I presume that that you will be reporting the matter to the police. You seem to have all the evidence and facts you need. So why not? Are you scared that they would think that you were wasting their time. Or are you just all talk and do not even have the courage of your own convictions. Just put up or shut up.

PS if I were posting at 4 o'clock in the morning, I would be asking some serious questions of myself. I'd go and hug a lefty socialist tree and stay away from the fat capitalist beers.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Stephen101, if your school fails to get the parents money back from SE, is it supported by Council etc in the same way as Tavistock school ?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rayscoops,

How the school is supported and works with the Council on this is a matter between for those bodies and the parents - and I have no intention of breaching confidences in this area to a public bulletin board or perhpas more importantly to Reynard or his friends who may be watching. And apart from the public pronouncement by Devon County Council I don't have a clue as to how they are working with the school and its parents so any comparisons would be of little validity. I daresay you and leedsunited will read what you want into that so as to manufacture furthur evidence in support of your theories - but as always you will be building your houses on quicksand.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Stephen101, so which school are you associated with ?
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deleted


Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Sun 17-04-11 10:39; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
[quote="Stephen101"]

Quote:
Since you consider all the teachers concerned guilty of bribery and numerous other breaches of the law - can I presume that that you will be reporting the matter to the police. You seem to have all the evidence and facts you need. So why not? Are you scared that they would think that you were wasting their time. Or are you just all talk and do not even have the courage of your own convictions. Just put up or shut up.


Lets get a few things straight here, i have not said at any time that all teachers are guilty, go back and read, i am sure you were taught to do that.

Secondly as you do not know what i do for a living you are making very big assumptions of what i am prepared to do or not to do, as you have already indicated this is not the place to show anybody what is going on in the background

Quote:
PS if I were posting at 4 o'clock in the morning, I would be asking some serious questions of myself. I'd go and hug a lefty socialist tree and stay away from the fat capitalist beers.


Sorry for the 4am post, i am in Whistler spending my hard earned capitalist dosh Laughing
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Samerberg Sue, Stephen101, ccl,

Suggest you get of your high horses and go read something from somebody in the industry who has first hand experience as a TO of what is going on, take your sunglasses with you as it may be a little bright once you have your heads out of the sand.

http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=76033
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
leedsunited wrote:
i have not said at any time that all teachers are guilty, go back and read, i am sure you were taught to do that. :


I was indeed taught to do that. Indeed I also taught others how to read, reflect and conduct a reasoned and relevant argument. That is why I see that Stephen101 wrote "all the teachers concerned" and understand that to be very different from your "all teachers".

He has a point about putting up or shutting up. You have reiterated your point about inspection trips to the point of tedium. If you believe people who go on them are guilty of accepting a bribe, do something about it.

Inspection trips should be recognised by participants for what they are: part of a tour operator's promotion, a commercially driven incentive to gain customers. If a risk assessment is required by visiting a resort, that is another issue and I would not put it forward as the raison d'etre of inspecition visits. Generally they are paid for and only become free when a minimum booking is made. If they weren't enjoyable they wouldn't be fulfilling their commercial purpose. It is difficult to understand why anyone should grudge and make such an issue of people having some return for voluntarily creating opportunities for young people to be involved in snowsports. The answer, I suppose, is that teachers and other youth workers should be allowed to go on inspection trips but forbidden to enjoy themselves.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
leedsunited, not bothering as it is an obvious troll and it will allow you and your fellow trolls to play in an area where no-one gives a toss!

You've been talking (badly in terms of spelling, grammar, reading comprehension and logic) complete and utter bollux since you muscled your way into this thread.

Now go and be a nice little troll and play safely with the others in the kindergarten Wayne has so thoughtfully supplied you with.
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For crying out loud! I've been away for a week, leading my school ski trip (great, by the way) and was interested to see if there were any developments to the skiing europe & Chris Reynard story. 9 pages of tedious bickering later...
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daveyladboy wrote:
For crying out loud! I've been away for a week, leading my school ski trip (great, by the way) and was interested to see if there were any developments to the skiing europe & Chris Reynard story. 9 pages of tedious bickering later...


Well said daveyladboy!
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