 Poster: A snowHead
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| Damien wrote: |
| Agenterre, New Generation Courchevel 1650 2 hrs 1 or 2 persons 165 euros ESF 92 euros. Check it out for yourself. |
You make my point very well.
Just because it is (very) expensive doesn't make it twice as good. I wonder if any(how many) instructors have ever worked for both?
P.S .. If either school had been any where other than 'Courche-darling' the prices would be significantly less. That doesnt make Courchevel instructors better than others either.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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pam w, there's no law in the UK that prevents anyone from operating a business as a brain surgeon or a barrister. Fraudulently claiming to have the qualifications, however, is an offence, and you might struggle to attract much business without them.
Out of interest, is there a law in the UK that prevents someone setting up shop as a ski instructor without BASI quals?
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Wed 9-02-11 20:08; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Dr John wrote: |
| Out of interest, is there a law in the UK that prevents someone setting up shop as a ski instructor without BASI quals? |
No.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Dr John wrote: |
| Out of interest, is there a law in the UK that prevents someone setting up shop as a ski instructor without BASI quals? |
I believe there are no laws in the UK regarding this and it has been known for people to be employed as instructors when they have no qualifications or haven't completed the minimum qualification but not as far as I know at any dry slope, dome or in any ski school on a Scottish mountain that is officially sanctioned or run by the company running the uplift ...
However, you don't specifically need BASI qualifications you can use any relevant qualification be it from a home nation governing body (SSE/SSS etc) or from an association based abroad (PSIA, CSIA etc.)
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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stewart woodward, thought not. So it's good old fashioned French protectionism we're dealing with, we know where we stand. I'm looking forward to seeing the news pictures of furious striking french instructors blockading the pistes with burning marmots.
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| Quote: |
New Generation Courchevel 1650 2 hrs 1 or 2 persons 165 euros ESF 92 euros
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ESI Les Saisies 58 - 72 euros for up to 3 people depending on season. So a 2 hour private lesson for 3 people, outside the peak holiday season, will cost them less than 10 euros an hour each. Not bad.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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For info, the law on this is that all eu countries must accept equivalent qualifications from other eu countries. The tricky bit is establishing what's equivalent. E.g. It's not unreasonable for the french toargue that the british mountain leader qualification is not equivalent to their accompagnateur because ML only requires 9 days of training/assessment while AMM requires a lot more. Qualis like IML and IFMGA guide are readily accepted because they were set up co-operatively between the governing bodies of several nations and therefore have a similar number of training hours, similar content, assessment procedures, etc.
BASI have adapted their ski instructor qualis on this basis. At the top level, a BASI instructor will have the same amount of training as a French instructor. The French (and austrians & italians) make all of their own instructors pass the Eurotest, so they're not asking the brits to do anything different. In fact, you will occasionally hear french trainees moaning that it's unfair that the brits can attempt the test as often as they like, while their own system only allows them to try it once per year.
As many euro instructors come from a race background of some description, the speed tests may be easier for them, but there are no double standards (stories about top pros setting the times on "british day" while old Pierre gets dragged out on locals' day notwithstanding!)
As mentioned above, uk law is very lax in this area, while in france, sports instruction is very wrapped-up in the law and you must hold a nationally recognised qualification or get written acceptance of your "equivalence" to teach any sport or outdoor activity.
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Beeb picked up on the story here - raises interesting point that...
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| Under the French system, snowboard instructors also have to qualify as ski instructors. But in Germany and the UK there are separate exams for each snow discipline. |
Full story here
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12406475
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
Under the French system, snowboard instructors also have to qualify as ski instructors. But in Germany and the UK there are separate exams for each snow discipline.
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BASI is making good progress on this issue, and snowboarders can now apply to have their qualification recognised in France on a case by case basis. You can read more in an article written by Kevin Edwards here:
http://www.basi.org.uk/docs/Article_%20Kevin_Edwards.pdf
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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The wages are not great, and you would be bottom of the priority list. ESF never had any interest in employing British instructors it was a synical marketing ploy. Last year there were adverts in the British skiing press claiming "250 british instructors" were employed by ESF. This was a lie, the reason ESF wanted to make this claim is to stop british clientele going to the independent schools where most of the British ISTDs work. BASI were complicit with this marketing ploy which annoyed plenty of British instructors who have had to put up with jip from the reds over the years.
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Think alot of people on here are stating things they've heard from a mate over a beer!
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ESF never had any interest in employing British instructors it was a synical marketing ploy.
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They often look for brits that can speak some french too, although there is a language test it was shockingly easy when i took it. just a photo copy of a test book, hence answers were upside down at the bottom of the page. this has given basi instructors a bad rep.
As there are a relatively small number of ISTD's all the brit schools are tiny and not really a massive treat to esf's. mine didn't even know what basi is i had to show my bossman on the internet!
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You know it makes sense.
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| Dr John wrote: |
| pam w, there's no law in the UK that prevents anyone from operating a business as a brain surgeon or a barrister |
I don't think that's true. To act as a barrister one has to be called to the bar. One cannot legally act in court without it. Legal Services Act 2007 for a start. Similar laws apply in the UK for surgeons - Medical Act 1858 is another start.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Thu 10-02-11 10:09; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| jjc wrote: |
Think alot of people on here are stating things they've heard from a mate over a beer!
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This is snowheads, what do you expect?
The head of La Rosiere ESF is a Brit btw. The ESF is not a single company but a franchise with an head office in a shed in Meylan (twinned with Didcot). Most of the instructors will be self-employed. The head office is just a central marketing and lobbying outfit, they don't tell local ski schools how to run their businesses.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| stevomcd wrote: |
| As mentioned above, uk law is very lax in this area, |
"lax"??! I should hope it is entirely non-existent. Whilst I want a solicitor to be a solicitor, I do not want the law to require my ski teacher to have grade 8 or my piano teacher to have BASI.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Sideshow_Bob, Everyone is free to choose who they wish to represent them in court, Julian Assange is currently representing himself in his extradition hearing, ferinstance. To advertise oneself as a "barrister at law" without having passed the bar may not be legal, but I don't think there's anything stopping you from advertising your services as an independent legal representative.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Dr John, you said 'barrister', which has a very clearly defined legal position. I don't have the time to explain the details to you of who can do what in the legal system, but start with Wikipedia if you're interested. Same with medical practitioner. Both are professions covered by acts of law, and I have detailed the acts covering them, which proves your argument that there is no law covering these professions wrong.
| http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2007/29/notes/division/7/3/1/6 wrote: |
Section 17: Offence to pretend to be entitled
75.This section makes it an offence for a person who is not entitled to carry on a reserved legal activity, to pretend to be entitled to carry on that activity, or to use a name, title or description which implies that that person is so entitled. The penalties for committing this offence are the same as those for carrying on a reserved legal activity when not entitled. |
| http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2007/29/section/181 wrote: |
181Unqualified person not to pretend to be a barrister
(1)It is an offence for a person who is not a barrister—
(a)wilfully to pretend to be a barrister, or
(b)with the intention of implying falsely that that person is a barrister to take or use any name, title or description.
(2)A person who is guilty of an offence under subsection (1) is liable—
(a)on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum (or both), and
(b)on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years or a fine (or both). |
There, we have it quite clearly explained that in the UK it is illegal to do certain professions or pretend to be entitled to do these professions without necessary qualification or entitlement.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Thu 10-02-11 12:07; edited 3 times in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Sideshow_Bob, quite. As I understand it to be a 'professional' you need your qualification to practise your job. Niggles me as a chartered engineer - which is not required by law to do an engineering job - but there you go.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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achilles, what niggles me more as a fellow engineer is that in the UK boiler repairmen, mechanics, and other tradesmen are referred to as "engineers"
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Aggh more crap from the Beeb.
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Sideshow_Bob, I admire your dedication to proving a point, but I'm sorry to say I've already made that point in my original post "Fraudulently claiming to have the qualifications, however, is an offence".
If a friend asks me to teach him to ski in return for some sort of remuneration, then I can do and there's no law to stop me from doing that. Exactly same applies if a friend asks me to represent him on court or to do some brain surgery on him. He's be completely bonkers to ask me to do any of those (perhaps not unrelated to the requirement for brain surgery), but that's his concern, not the laws.
As long as I'm open and honest about my utter lack of qualifications, I'm not committing any offence in being paid to provide a service to those who are mad enough to pay me.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Dr John, but you ARE committing an offence in providing certain services. Brain surgery is one. The parts of legal profession restricted to barristers is another. It is illegal to provide or offer these services, be it paid or unpaid, without the necessary qualifications.
Some more of the legislation just to make it cystal it's not just about pretending
| Quote: |
Section 14: Offence to carry on a reserved legal activity if not entitled
68.This section makes it an offence for a person who is not entitled to carry on a reserved legal activity to carry out that activity. Persons guilty of the offence may be liable to a term of imprisonment of up to two years and/or a fine.
69.A person who commits an offence in relation to rights of audience or rights to conduct litigation in relation to any proceedings (or contemplated proceedings) is also guilty of contempt of the court involved, and may be punished accordingly. |
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Sideshow_Bob, ahh, I see, Section 14. Apologies, I'd only read down to section 13. My bad.
Anyway, I've got work to be getting on with. Now where did I put that scalpel...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Sideshow_Bob, I think architects fall under the same laws don't they? But accountants and surveyors (like me) do not.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| achilles, what niggles me more as a fellow engineer is that in the UK boiler repairmen, mechanics, and other tradesmen are referred to as "engineers" |
and if you are working in an aircraft you are referred to as crew,
just like McDonalds 
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You know it makes sense.
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chaletglacier,
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ESF never had any interest in employing British instructors it was a synical marketing ploy. Last year there were adverts in the British skiing press claiming "250 british instructors" were employed by ESF. This was a lie, the reason ESF wanted to make this claim is to stop british clientele going to the independent schools where most of the British ISTDs work. BASI were complicit with this marketing ploy which annoyed plenty of British instructors who have had to put up with jip from the reds over the years.
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The ESF recognised the success of British ski schools in France, and decided they would benefit from employing BASI qualified instructors. There are not currently 250 BASI instructors working for the ESF, as there are only about 300 current ISTDs in total. The ESF have however stated that they would like to employ approximately 250 ISTDs (which is approx 1 in each ski school), which is great news for BASI instructors. Call it marketing or what you will, but the offer was made and BASI actively works to promote employment opportunities for BASI instructors, whether that be with the ESF or independent ski schools.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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oh and even thought bbc says of the eurotest 45% passed only 9% of basi members passed in adh in december. and then 0% in jan so there is a difference in standard between those going for the test.
Basically the french have a better training setup...... for now. ESF is brill for getting your training and qualifications. hence why i'm trying to open up the training where i work to others.
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Poster: A snowHead
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[quote="skimottaret"][b]achilles[/b], what niggles me more as a fellow engineer is that in the UK boiler repairmen, mechanics, and other tradesmen are referred to as "engineers"[/quote]
Agreed!
CW 
BEng CEng MICE
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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> what niggles me more as a fellow engineer is that in the UK boiler repairmen, mechanics, and other tradesmen are referred to as "engineers"
It is fairly typical for people who look after engines etc to be called engineers. I wouldn't take any offence if you are C.Eng or otherwise.
BTW another example: To work on gas equipment in the UK you need to be gas safety registered... whether you a British, Polish or French.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| davidof wrote: |
| It is fairly typical for people who look after engines etc to be called engineers. |
But is a gas boiler an engine? Is a photocopier an engine?
These people are fitters, not engineers.
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FAQ
