 Poster: A snowHead
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achilles, I'd much rather learn from a native English speaker who speaks no French than a native French speaker whose English is difficult/impossible to understand.
I pay to be taught; I don't pay to be nursemaided on the slopes. There's no doubt that everything you write is how it would be in an ideal world, but it isn't an ideal world.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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...sorry but this thread isn't really about anything is it? Daily-Mail-in-inaccurate-reporting-of-story-involving-disgusting-foreigners shocker 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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James the Last, you're free do do as you wish. I can think of 4 really top instructors that I have skied with. Two French, one Swiss, and one was one of your 'native English speakers'. All spoke excellent English, and all were fluent in the local language. TBH, I have always thought that was a given - and am somewhat surprised that apparently it is not so. Not sure what you mean by 'nursemaided'. However, if I'm in a party at La Grave (legal for instructors off glacier) and someone breaks a leg (I've seen that there) then I take it for granted that the instructor can call the emergency services, and speak to the helicopter crew in French - I don't want some 'native English' instructor who hasn't bothered to learn the local language.
I really am surprised this is in dispute. There are plenty of good instructors, of whatever nationality, who speak both good English and the local language. Why settle for anyone else?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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And yet again:
ALL ISIA (BASI L3) QUALIFIED INSTRUCTORS ARE REQUIRED TO DO A LANGUAGE MODULE!!!!!
Therefore they should have basic competency in the local language particularly in technical skiing/safety terms ... I dunno what the fzuck you two are on but it'd be good if you took some notice of the actual facts as stated by other posters in the thread (not that many are left now it's been hijacked lol) ... no offence like 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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roga, the language module is, I understand, around GCSE level. Perfectly fine to say, " My student has broken his leg. We are at such-and-such location." Probably not so good at trying to understand the fast local accent coming back over a badly received mobile signal!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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roga, why let facts get in the way of a good argument?
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It's nice to have the choice, isn't it Big ski school, small ski school, independent. Native or Brit. 1st language or 2nd, etc, etc.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Won't the EU employment directive come into play at some point? Restriction of freedom to trade yadda yadda yadda?
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Dr John, it is in play, but it doesn't stop EU countries from having their own minimum standards, and why shouldn't they?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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beanie1, I can understand that for wearing an EFS badge, but I got the impression that they're trying to restrict independents as well?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Dr John, but we're trying to ensure that foreign doctors coming to work in the UK are up to standard, aren't we? Seems fair enough to me.
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| James the Last wrote: |
| achilles wrote: |
| .... If there were an accident, I would expect the instructor to be able to speak fluently in the local language to the pisteurs and the emergency services. |
So on that basis anybody skiing abroad should be able to speak fluently in the local language lest they are involved in an accident when not in a ski lesson? Otherwise foreigners should only be allowed on the slopes with a tutor/guide?
Perhaps you shouldn't even be allowed into a country unless you speak the lingo fluently? |
I am sorry to be harsh, but what an idiotic distortion of what Achilles is saying.
As a visitor/customer, you are not responsible for anyone else. So your post is just plain stupid..
As an instructor you are responsible for a group. Whether that group speaks mandarin or english or swalili is irrelevant. What is relevant is that, should one person or the entire group get into trouble, in your world the instructor cannot communicate effectively with the local emergency services, the lifties, the patrol etc.... I don't care if the instructor doesn't know how to order a beer, but should we get lost or injured, it'd be nice if my guide can tell the locals where to find us or where to send the ambulance! 
I am French in the UK, I'd be pretty pi$$ed off if I was getting injured and found that the guy in the ambulance could speak french but not a word of english...How's he going to explain my problem to the local doctor? meanwhile, me in the ambulance :
 and 
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You know it makes sense.
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Was there not a language called ESPARANTO or something that was going to be the European language spoken by us all? Bring it back, all instructors must speak ESPARANTO
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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gilleski, I think Esperanto was supposed to be global ... rejected by the Brits of course as the French recommended it ! ( but more likely we know how cr*** we are at all languages where a raised voice and speaking slowly is obviously all that is required  )
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Poster: A snowHead
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Kruisler, haven't you been in England long enough to know that to a certain kind of Englishman, learning how to speak silly foreign languages (even if you expect to work in silly foreign countries) is really such a frightful waste of time, old chap?
The spirit of Cecil Rhodes is not entirely extinguished.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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One very senior and pioneering French-based British instructor once told me that he'd been full of trepidation going into a French language test. The guy told him, in French, to sit down. And when he sat down he was told he'd passed.
(He might have been exagerating, of course, being a different kind of Englishman who tends to play down his skills...)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
I can't communicate on French forums
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Agenterre, I bet you can!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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pam w, I try ... but oh dear .. it's painful ( for others !) .. a refusal to use nothing but a QWERTY keyboard doesn't help 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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My take it: I regularly book 1/2 day private tuition. Time is both precious and expensive. An instructors ability to communicate quickly and efficiently my shortcomings (many) and how to correct them is far more important to me than knowing they've managed to ski a GS course within 5% of the time of the required time (or whatever it is).
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Agenterre, but French is your third language, n'est ce pas? Most of us aren't much good in more than 1.
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pam w, Yes, my German isn't too bad either (Big Head smiley please). However I destroy Italian TOTALLY ..... OH laughs every time we cross the border: An offensive mix of Spanish, German and French with the occasional word of schoolboy Latin. I REALLY struggle .... and have to revert to English (or French just along the coast).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| gilleski wrote: |
English ski instructors! It's the Scottish and Welsh ones you want to watch with all their strange customs!
PSG |
No mention of the Irish? 
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| pam w wrote: |
| One very senior and pioneering French-based British instructor once told me that he'd been full of trepidation going into a French language test. The guy told him, in French, to sit down. And when he sat down he was told he'd passed. |
That reminds me of a Monty Python sketch, with John Cleese interviewing Eric Idle for a job in the Secret Service.
Cleese: "Do you speak French?"
Idle: "Oui."
Cleese: "Right, you're in then."
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Spyderman, Na, they are normally ok
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You know it makes sense.
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| Kruisler wrote: |
I am sorry to be harsh, but what an idiotic distortion of what Achilles is saying.
So your post is just plain stupid.. |
A bit harsh, don't you think? I've had an Italian instructor in a French resort whom I certainly wouldn't have wanted to go with anywhere dangerous, as he struggled to make himself understood in English. In the mountains, failure to follow instructions correctly can be fatal. Given the choice, I'd rather be certain the English was correct so the accident didn't happen, rather than be certain that the pieces could be picked up more effectively afterwards.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| James the Last wrote: |
| I've had an Italian instructor in a French resort whom I certainly wouldn't have wanted to go with anywhere dangerous, as he struggled to make himself understood in English |
But you haven't said what his French was like?
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Damien
Damien
Guest
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I see the Guardian has picked up on this story today. Page 5, sorry no link. Anyway IMHO it's not language that's the issue but the method. I've skied with many ESF instructors and only once with a British instructor. I speak French well enough to understand and be understood. I believe the Brits saw a gap in that impressing the client with your ski ability wasn't as important as breaking the act of skiing down in to small bite size easily learnable chunks. Basically using modern sports' coaching techniques which are proven to work. The ESF method is still follow me and try and copy what I do. British Ski instruction is significantly more expensive than the ESF but it is also significantly better.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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One of the key factors in here is a culture and law diametrically opposed to that in the Anglo-Saxon sphere.
For a large variety of professions in France you must hold the appropriate qualification (including as a ski instructor) and this is a legal requirement. This is anathema to the Anglo-Saxon, free market, liberal market. IMO if you live or work in another country you should accept its rules and regulations; if not go somewhere else. French administration, even to the French is a pain in the back bottom with all the reactive speed of a stunned slug - but as an African once said, "you have the watch but we have the time".
As a result to work legally in France you need to either pass the required diploma or get your qualification recognised as being equivalent. My understanding is that for a ski instructor you need to pass the "Eurotest"; a giant slalom speed test. For some qualifications the question of equivalence is simple, and it's a simple administrative procedure e.g. for a British qualified IFMGA (mountain guide) or International Mountain Leader. An instructor is also legally required to hold a "Carte Professionnelle" which gives details of qualifications held in case of a check by the French authorities.
The French, have an EU derogation in certain areas that allows them to require an "aptitude test" and for skiing this is the Eurotest.
The ability to speak French, to a rudimentary level, is required simply to ensure that in the event of an accident that the instructor is able to pass on details of location, etc to the rescue services; a not unreasonable demand.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
This is anathema to the Anglo-Saxon, free market, liberal market.
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That must be why we have so many amateur brain surgeons and barristers.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Damien,
| Quote: |
| British Ski instruction is significantly more expensive than the ESF but it is also significantly better. |
Both generalisations are wild .. and just your opinion, definitely not fact. By way of example some British instructors knowingly compete close to the ESF price ... they cant rely on expensive marketing to just cream off those who think price = quality.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Damien,
| Quote: |
| British Ski instruction is significantly more expensive than the ESF but it is also significantly better. |
So if you get a BRITISH instructor working for the ESF you get significantly better instruction for significantly LESS money
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| James the Last wrote: |
| Kruisler wrote: |
I am sorry to be harsh, but what an idiotic distortion of what Achilles is saying.
So your post is just plain stupid.. |
A bit harsh, don't you think? I've had an Italian instructor in a French resort whom I certainly wouldn't have wanted to go with anywhere dangerous, as he struggled to make himself understood in English. In the mountains, failure to follow instructions correctly can be fatal. Given the choice, I'd rather be certain the English was correct so the accident didn't happen, rather than be certain that the pieces could be picked up more effectively afterwards. |
As I read your posts, you seem to be only concerned by the communciation between the instructor and his charge(s). The point of an instructor knowing a minimal amount of the local dialect is so that he can interact with (potentially life saving) local services. It obviously does matter that you understand what technical advice you're being given, but it's just as important that the instructor can make himself understood by the locals.
Which is what Achilles is saying..... and not that everybody/tourist should know the local lingo as your post implied.
If you genuinely think that the instructors having a minimum grasp of the local language is not an important/essential requirement then I stand by my statement...
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| Damien wrote: |
| ... British Ski instruction is significantly more expensive than the ESF but it is also significantly better. |
Rubbish. Of course I have had some great British Instructors - I bet Stewart Adamson has taught many shHs - and easiski is legendary. But there have been some great French ones, too. I wonder if Gilles Galvani is still going at Les Deux Alpes - I know Phillipe (of EOSB fame) is someone I like skiing with at Val Thorens. Both the latter spoke excellent English. Their French seemed OK to my ear
I do have an issue with class size of ESF classes that the public just pitch up to - but that is another matter. There are some really top-notch French (and Austrian and Swiss and.... ) instructors. Britain by no means has a unique grasp on instructional quality.
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Damien
Damien
Guest
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Agenterre, New Generation Courchevel 1650 2 hrs 1 or 2 persons 165 euros ESF 92 euros. Check it out for yourself.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Radio 5 live in 5 mins (18:25 UK Time), Debate on English ski instructors working in France with Becci Malthouse from BASS Morzine!
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I work in France and the school i work for has 80+ instructors.
I am the only non frenchie!
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FAQ
