 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Interesting article. Bit fictional I think. I heard today that the French authorities were keen to employ more BASI instructors and said they were looking for as many as 250 ISIA-qualified instructors who had passed their Test Technique to work for ESF schools around the country. The fact that there are less than 150 BASI ISIA qualified instructors might pose a problem, of course.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar, do you mean BASI L3 ISIAs or L4 ISTDs with the ISIA card (or is it stamp, I can never remember)?
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roga, L3 with Test Technique, presumably to work as a stagiere. L3 gives you ISIA Stamp, L4 gives you ISIA Card.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Been there, done that. When I worked in France in the early 1990s there was the same outcry. Non French instructors were being arrested on the slopes.
There was very poor snow cover back then too & part of teh problem was that the French were staying away so ESF wasn't getting any business but the British tour operators were flying planeloads of customers out every week & not sharing any of that business with the local skischools.
I wonder if there's a bit of deja vu going on?
I wonder if there's a bit of deja vu going on?
CW 
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Since when did facts need to be incorporated into a Mail story?
Surprised that it printed this though :-
| Quote: |
Mr Parker, who is now a qualified instructor in France, said he had passed the tests easily in the UK, but had to sit them over and over again across the Channel.
'I took the technical test more than twenty times before passing, while in England I had the highest certificate,' said Mr Parker. |
Obvious conclusion - Brit tests are too easy and Brit Instructors not as good ... more a case of British Plumbers going to Poland 
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| roga, L3 with Test Technique, presumably to work as a stagiere. L3 gives you ISIA Stamp, L4 gives you ISIA Card. |
Ah thanks for clarifying that, will have to try and remember which way round it goes 
I presume when you say there are only 150 of them you mean 150 qualified since the ISIA stamp came in because there must surely be way more than 150 BASI L3s and old money Grade 2s?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| roga wrote: |
| I presume when you say there are only 150 of them you mean 150 qualified since the ISIA stamp came in because there must surely be way more than 150 BASI L3s and old money Grade 2s? |
I think the numbers are posted in a thread on snowHeads somewhere, perhaps by Beanie1? As far as I remember it is the number of people who have passed all of the L3/ISIA units, who are up to date and currently members of BASI (not all the old Grade 2s will be eligible for L3/ISIA status because, AIUI, they need to do mountain safety and something else (2nd discipline?).
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| Agenterre wrote: |
Since when did facts need to be incorporated into a Mail story?
Surprised that it printed this though :-
| Quote: |
Mr Parker, who is now a qualified instructor in France, said he had passed the tests easily in the UK, but had to sit them over and over again across the Channel.
'I took the technical test more than twenty times before passing, while in England I had the highest certificate,' said Mr Parker. |
Obvious conclusion - Brit tests are too easy and Brit Instructors not as good ... more a case of British Plumbers going to Poland |
Hmmm, but as you say this is Daily Mail reporting - I'll bet they've wildly quoted out of context and find it hard to believe that if the instructor quoted was already an ISTD he found it hard to pass whatever test he's supposedly referring to (there isn't one for ISTDs is there?). More like he was in reality saying that to get his ISTD he had to get his speed test and tried that 20 times before passing!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Think iSIA stamp is nearer 500?
Welcome to th EU France and the freedom of labour movement between EU members!
Viva la France!
PSG
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| roga wrote: |
| I presume when you say there are only 150 of them you mean 150 qualified since the ISIA stamp came in because there must surely be way more than 150 BASI L3s and old money Grade 2s? |
I think the numbers are posted in a thread on snowHeads somewhere, perhaps by Beanie1? As far as I remember it is the number of people who have passed all of the L3/ISIA units, who are up to date and currently members of BASI (not all the old Grade 2s will be eligible for L3/ISIA status because, AIUI, they need to do mountain safety and something else (2nd discipline?). |
Yeah I think that's right, there are a few old Grade 2s working at Cairngorm who have mentioned to me they need to do some extra units to get the full ISIA, I hadn't actually realised that before I was told by them.
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English ski instructors! It's the Scottish and Welsh ones you want to watch with all their strange customs!
PSG
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You know it makes sense.
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| gilleski wrote: |
| Think iSIA stamp is nearer 500? |
That includes those with ISTD according to Beanie1. Currently 145 L3/ISIA members.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| gilleski wrote: |
| English ski instructors! It's the Scottish and Welsh ones you want to watch with all their strange customs! |
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Poster: A snowHead
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| roga wrote: |
| Yeah I think that's right, there are a few old Grade 2s working at Cairngorm who have mentioned to me they need to do some extra units to get the full ISIA, I hadn't actually realised that before I was told by them. |
Seems to be quite a long list that Grade 2s need to do:
| Beanie1 wrote: |
| Current grade 2s need to do second discipline, common theory, mountain safety, second language, and coaching and then they get their L3 with ISIA stamp |
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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We are introducing some competence tests at The Snow Centre using the French model.
Instructors will need to be fluent in the local dialect ( a cross between estuary English and cockney )
They will need to demonstrate the ability to hold on to the rope lift for at least 5 hours (strength and stamina test)
They will need to be expert mogul skiers, especially if they work the late shift.
They must prove that at least one great grandparent had a birth link to Hertfordshire.
And finally they must support Watford FC ( just like Elton John) Luton supporters need not apply!
Men from the boys!
PSG
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| roga wrote: |
| Yeah I think that's right, there are a few old Grade 2s working at Cairngorm who have mentioned to me they need to do some extra units to get the full ISIA, I hadn't actually realised that before I was told by them. |
Seems to be quite a long list that Grade 2s need to do:
| Beanie1 wrote: |
| Current grade 2s need to do second discipline, common theory, mountain safety, second language, and coaching and then they get their L3 with ISIA stamp |
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That'll be why they were so grumpy sounding when they told me
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Daily Mail wrote: |
| and even then they have to master French before being allowed to work in France.... |
I find that hard to argue with.
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| gilleski wrote: |
We are introducing some competence tests at The Snow Centre using the French model.
Instructors will need to be fluent in the local dialect ( a cross between estuary English and cockney )
They will need to demonstrate the ability to hold on to the rope lift for at least 5 hours (strength and stamina test)
They will need to be expert mogul skiers, especially if they work the late shift.
They must prove that at least one great grandparent had a birth link to Hertfordshire.
And finally they must support Watford FC ( just like Elton John) Luton supporters need not apply!
Men from the boys!
PSG |
Are you sure that'll be enough to stem the tide of French instructors wanting to work at The Snow Centre?
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Should keep a few out......at least!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Just a couple of points:-
The ESF is not the official government ski school in France. It is a private business like any other and operates as a franchise. There may well be unfair practices in many resorts where the ESF gets preferential treatment from lift companies, the tourist board and local council as the ESF has often been installed for a long time, since the 1930s in some areas and has deep family ties. It is often ESF instructors who turn out to help clean the resort, do repairs or other chores out of season so they may feel they are entitled to some perks. The Liberation article is clear on the ESF status.
The Libé article says la Tania has 70% English speaking skiers. The Daily Mail mistranslates this as "La Tania, in the Trois Vallees - an area of the Alps where some 70 per cent of British skiers to France head". As the post above says "enough said!"
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| davidof wrote: |
| It is often ESF instructors who turn out to help clean the resort, do repairs or other chores out of season so they may feel they are entitled to some perks. |
I think other instructors, including Brits, give some time to the resorts for various jobs during the winter, in return for a free lift pass.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| I think other instructors, including Brits, give some time to the resorts for various jobs during the winter, in return for a free lift pass. |
Yes that's the case in Val d'Isere for example. My point was just that the ESF is a major force in some ski resorts for a variety of reasons but remains a private company and so should not get preferential treatment.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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If the customers want easy to understand instructors its natural for the jobs to go to brits
seems reasonable to me
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You know it makes sense.
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I'm more worried about the standard of French journalism, I first heard this story in 1988, and even then it was a few years old.
Come on guys, keep up, news is only news if it's, err, "new".
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| achilles wrote: |
| Daily Mail wrote: |
| and even then they have to master French before being allowed to work in France.... |
I find that hard to argue with. |
Presumably you'd also find it hard to argue with a requirement that anyone working in Wales can speak Welsh? Or Gaelic to work in the Hebrides? What if fluency in French isn't essential for the role in question - perhaps because the customers would all prefer to converse in English? It sounds like discrimination to me.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Oh dear, the Daily Mail!
As said above the ESF are very keen to employ British instructors and have said they would like to employ 250 (one in each school) who are qualified to teach in France. However there aren't enough! Definitely not overrun by British instructors...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| Presumably you'd also find it hard to argue with a requirement that anyone working in Wales can speak Welsh? Or Gaelic to work in the Hebrides? What if fluency in French isn't essential for the role in question - perhaps because the customers would all prefer to converse in English? It sounds like discrimination to me. |
All ISIA qualified instructors (wherever they qualify) are required to do a language module, nothing too onerous just basic phrases and basic technical words in a language of choice - one option being French and I'd guess elsewhere in Europe English would be a popular one. No discrimination there although I guess you'd have a better chance of employment if you do speak the language of the country you wish to work in reasonably well.
| beanie1 wrote: |
| Oh dear, the Daily Mail! |
Yup and they can't even translate the article they're cribbing properly 
| Quote: |
| As said above the ESF are very keen to employ British instructors and have said they would like to employ 250 (one in each school) who are qualified to teach in France. However there aren't enough! Definitely not overrun by British instructors... |
Precisely!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Maybe a bit off topic... if I was an ISIA ---- i.e. have an internationally recognised qualification... why would I take a test to get 'Trainee' status - and wages ! - in France ?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| achilles wrote: |
| Daily Mail wrote: |
| and even then they have to master French before being allowed to work in France.... |
I find that hard to argue with. |
Presumably you'd also find it hard to argue with a requirement that anyone working in Wales can speak Welsh? Or Gaelic to work in the Hebrides? What if fluency in French isn't essential for the role in question - perhaps because the customers would all prefer to converse in English? It sounds like discrimination to me. |
When I am being instructed in France, it is discrimination I want applied. If there were an accident, I would expect the instructor to be able to speak fluently in the local language to the pisteurs and the emergency services. No problem on this one with easiski.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| achilles wrote: |
| When I am being instructed in France, it is discrimination I want applied. If there were an accident, I would expect the instructor to be able to speak fluently in the local language to the pisteurs and the emergency services. No problem on this one with easiski. |
So on that basis anybody skiing abroad should be able to speak fluently in the local language lest they are involved in an accident when not in a ski lesson? Otherwise foreigners should only be allowed on the slopes with a tutor/guide?
Perhaps you shouldn't even be allowed into a country unless you speak the lingo fluently?
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James the Last, if you may have to be liaising with local emergency services as part of your job, yes. Moreover if you are going to network with other professionals - discussing latest techniques, local risks and so forth, it does seem a good idea. I certainly would not want to be with an instructor who could not deal with the locals in their language. Heck, I expect the TO resort rep to be able to do that - let alone a ski instructor.
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There's no requirement for foreign instructors to 'master' French - don't think I know any who could be described as fluent and I can only think of two offhand whose grasp of the language is as good as/better than mine.
This is the Daily Mail, everyone, the piece is largely a pile of badly researched and crudely-slanted balderdash. As ever.
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Lizzard, IIRC your ran a French supermarket checkout - that's fluent enough for me. As for 'foreign' instructors, easiski sounds fluent in French both in technical an matters and everyday conversation. If the majority of English instructors are not fluent in French though, that seems a good case for skiing with a French English-speaking instructor.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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It's almost as if I'd never said:
| Quote: |
| All ISIA qualified instructors (wherever they qualify) are required to do a language module, nothing too onerous just basic phrases and basic technical words in a language of choice - one option being French and I'd guess elsewhere in Europe English would be a popular one. No discrimination there although I guess you'd have a better chance of employment if you do speak the language of the country you wish to work in reasonably well. |
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| ski wrote: |
| Maybe a bit off topic... if I was an ISIA ---- i.e. have an internationally recognised qualification... why would I take a test to get 'Trainee' status - and wages ! - in France ? |
If the wages were better than you could get elsewhere it'd be worth it ... not sure they are though for an ISIA?
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