 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Couldn't they just lay a very large plate with the kicker in the same place, right in the middle of the plate, every time? That would spread the load, just the same as having the snow spread out a lot more.
To design something with such tight tolerances with huge amounts of human influence sounds, personally, like a crap piece of design/build.
Sounds like Hemel has dodged a bullet on this one, they will be the only ones able to hold decent freestyle nights.
I suppose a lightweight plastic ramp with a thinner layer of snow over it would be be out of the question?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Spyderman wrote: |
This re-assessment of load limits has been applied to ALL UK snow domes with the exception of Hemel which is built onto a natural hill. |
Another plus factor for Hemel then! 
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Negative for me I think. Means Hemel may get more freestyle business and slope restrictions.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I find the problem with running nights for Freestyle or Bumps is that if the slope is also open for general recreational use or lessons, is that of course everyone doesn't want to use the features, so slope traffic get channelled into a narrower space, which causes the slope to bump up quite badly.
Freestyle only nights, like Fridays at Hemel are perfect as the slope is freestyle only, always packed out at Hemel.
Mixed sessions in my view are a bad idea during the busy period of the year, as in now.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Spyderman wrote: |
I find the problem with running nights for Freestyle or Bumps is that if the slope is also open for general recreational use or lessons, is that of course everyone doesn't want to use the features, so slope traffic get channelled into a narrower space, which causes the slope to bump up quite badly.
Freestyle only nights, like Fridays at Hemel are perfect as the slope is freestyle only, always packed out at Hemel.
Mixed sessions in my view are a bad idea during the busy period of the year, as in now. |
I agree with you that mixed sessions don't work, and it is good to see how popular the freestyle sessions are at Hemel. Only drawback is that some of the freestyle features need to be built the previous evening, so the slope during the day on a Friday is a no-go area for me because of the space taken up by that evening's freestyle features. It would be great to have a facility large enough for a permanent freestyle park.
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| Quote: |
To design something with such tight tolerances with huge amounts of human influence sounds, personally, like a crap piece of design/build.
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Monium, correct - been aware of this for ages as i know specialist structural engineers who pulled out of the build of one of domes because they knew the calculations didnt add up - but dome were not prepared to pay for higher spec. Of course dome found someone who would do it - are they regretting that cost cutting now?
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I think a lot of it is to do with slope management and how the snow has been maintained. These problems are coming to light now that they've been open for some time. If old compacted snow, which is obviously denser and therefore heavier than fresher snow, is not scraped and removed to the melt pit, then the weight on the deck will constantly be increasing as they still make more snow to top up the layer of ice.
Calcs were no doubt done with an ever weight spread over the surface of the deck, using snow weights probably obtained from the snow making manufacturers. These weight would have been for snow maintained as per their recommendations. Poor snow maintenance and building big kickers could be increasing the localised point loading on the deck who knows? 5 - 6 times.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Be interesting to see how Tamworth manage to reduce the snow cover as their 'snow' is pretty thin on what seems to be a base of ice.
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davkt, Tamworth "Snow" is indeed Ice, it's shaved ice from the ice rink below. Tamworth is very different technology to the newer domes.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Spyderman wrote: |
| I find the problem with running nights for Freestyle or Bumps is that if the slope is also open for general recreational use or lessons, is that of course everyone doesn't want to use the features, so slope traffic get channelled into a narrower space, which causes the slope to bump up quite badly. |
Trouble is, that the kickers, rails and boxes all stay out when it's NOT freestyle night - well, at least they do at the CFe. It's rare to go there with a clean slope and most irritating when at least 1/3 of it is given over to obstructions that are fenced off! What I'd like to see is equipment that can be pulled in or out as required.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
davkt, Tamworth "Snow" is indeed Ice, it's shaved ice from the ice rink below. Tamworth is very different technology to the newer domes.
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Do tamworth still have there jump at the bottom of the slope against the wall? If so I wonder if the wall is strong enough!!
When i've been to MK they have quite a few times had the floor up in the middle of the slope. They always seem to be doing maintenance. I just assumed it was to do with the snow maybe not!
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You know it makes sense.
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Isn't this a case of the operators of domes trying to be jack of all trades and master of none? Domes are trying to facilitate recreational skiers and boarders but have realised they need to create bigger and better freestyle features for the 'tricksters' amongst us. Thats the problem when you've got limited space within a 'fridge', your stuck to your original specifications and therefore when these specifications were done without any substantial leeway for stresses the operators have to either miss out financially or cross their fingers and hope nothing goes wrong......and unfortunately for them the crossed fingers have come undone. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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nomadicanna, If you mean that ramp that they use to stop the tubers yep its still there and well used!
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Poster: A snowHead
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REnE, Financial greed/pressures has a lot to do with it for sure.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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does anyone know if this also means that the 'bumps' nights are now also banned, or are we to just have 'mini moguls'?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I can add some specific tech info to this debate.
Snowdomes are 'cold stores' with a sloping floor and the addition of 'snow making' machines.
The traditional weak points of 'cold stores' are the joints between the insulation slabs and access to the cooling pipes. Over time each will require maintenance - no matter how good the build, some of the joints will fail.
For a dome that means crawling space in the roof between the insulation/pipes/roof. If this is not designed in, then its a huge job to 'drop' the ceiling.
For a dome with a suspended slab floor then it too needs access above and below the slab. If the slab cracks then that is a big deal as the insulation will be compromised. Loading specific areas with heavy snow features may not have been designed in to the specs.
Each night the dome snow should be removed and replaced. Temperatures and humidity are critical in the process. The power used is enormous and energy prices will be hurting.
If there is a lot of ice, as has been reported, then the process is failing, either human error or mechanical/structural failing. Either way, the structural loadings will be changed and more importantly the insulation joints are at risk because of incorrect moisture levels.
I could go on but i am sure you are dozing off now. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| TechHead wrote: |
| Each night the dome snow should be removed and replaced. |
All the snow should be removed and replaced each night?
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rob@rar, no, not all - it would depend on the condition of the surface snow. In ideal conditions with everything working as it should then a minimal depth is taken with a fresh covering of up to 1cm sprayed in the night and then pisted. The problems come with humidity variation and deep surface ice formation. If ice forms in insulation joints (ceiling or floor) then you can guess what happens. That starts to make humidity control more and more difficult (as the controlled environment is breached) so more ice forms and so on. Expanding ice is a real problem for 'cold stores'. If you watch for long enough at the snow domes you will see teams breaking out ice/snow from the floor/wall edges all around the dome - you can imagine the ice pressure against the walls.
I hope that clarifies things a bit.
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TechHead, welcome to Snowheads. You seem to have a specific interest in this topic, what's your background?
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I think Hemel is capable of making 70 tonnes of snow in 24 hours maximum, they can't start until 22:15 and must stop before the morning session, so they're really only capable of making a few mm per night.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
The traditional weak points of 'cold stores' are the joints between the insulation slabs and access to the cooling pipes. Over time each will require maintenance - no matter how good the build, some of the joints will fail.
For a dome that means crawling space in the roof between the insulation/pipes/roof. If this is not designed in, then its a huge job to 'drop' the ceiling.
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TechHead, If rumours are right management at a certain 'C-old F-ridge' may well be hoping that ths is not going to be the next twitchy cheek moment after the problem with cracks in floors for 'Cold Stores' who have built kickers . If the rumours are true the crawling space in the roof hasn't been adequately factored into the building design (allegedly)....ooops 
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Spyderman, correct - the modern systems will lay 5mm overnight.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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TechHead, sorry to repeat the question but I'm curious as to what your background is?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| TechHead wrote: |
I can add some specific tech info to this debate.
...For a dome with a suspended slab floor then it too needs access above and below the slab. If the slab cracks then that is a big deal as the insulation will be compromised. Loading specific areas with heavy snow features may not have been designed in to the specs...
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I am interested in the structural design of the facility.
It isn't usual to require access above and below suspended slabs once they are cast - what is it about this project that makes access to the slab a specific requirement and how has it been achieved?
Slab cracking doesn't necessarily mean that the insulation is compromised - what is the insulation type/detailing that means that it might be compromised in this case?
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