What do people make of this warning! Off piste safety.

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planeurge, An airbag if deployed will give you a huge advantage. I have personally seen one person being saved because of a beacon and skied with someone who was rescued by his friends 300m down a slide buried completely. There is pretty good evidence that beacons increase your chance of survival.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

planeurge, I believe the survival rate for people completely buried in avalanches is around 50%. I'll need to hunt around for where that stat came from them.

Having the equipment does make a significant difference to your survival chances, again I'd need to dig out the stats. But the more obvious one is that, if you're away from immediate help from a ski area and you're completely buried in an avalanche and you have no transceiver, your odds of surviving are pretty much zero.

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The Dauphine Libéré reports that the Albertville prosecutor that responsibility for accidents will be systematically looked into (and particularly the responsibility of professionals) and is seen as a priority.

Article (in French) http://www.ledauphine.com/savoie/2011/01/21/les-responsabilites-seront-systematiquement-recherchees

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I keep having the feeling that there is a disconnect in the thinking here. If a surgeon said to you, "I think I can fix your problem. There's a 50% survival rate for the operation I'm proposing," you would say, "No thanks." But every off-piste skier who discusses the subject says, "Well, it's a risky sport. But if you've got the right equipment and know how to use it, it's safe enough." No, it's not. It is only as safe as the overall risk. And the equipment makes very little difference to that.

Or, to put it another way, most of you do it because you think you are probably not going to be avalanched; not because you think you have fixed the odds for surviving an avalanche. So the notices on the mountain seem a little beside the point to me.

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planeurge, but a lot of the decision making process is designed to manage those risks down. You are right you cannot remove them, but you can look to assess them and take steps to reduce them. Look at them squarely and decide whether they make sense to you. Then you must take responsibility for your choices.

The notices on the mountains aren't there for the people with experience, they are to warn the inexperienced so that they think twice. Freeriding is taking off as a 'thing to do' and modern equipment lowers the barrier to entry so more people without the pre-requisite experience are going off into dangerous terrain often without the knowledge that they are taking a big risk. The signs essentially offer a warning not to ski off-piste if you don't know what you're doing and some possibly unfamiliar terms to seek out information about (e.g. what the heck is a windslab?). In conjunction with other attempts at education it'll hopefully cut down on skiers caught in avalanches they caused themselves and when the worst does happen at least there will be a better chance of rescuing someone.

It's definitely the case that the kit doesn't change the risk of being avalanched but it does alter the chances of dying in one should the worst happen. So there's your second, after nozawaonsen, off-piste skier that doesn't match the generalisation you made.

What alters the risk of being avalanched is being able to make good calls about the stability of a slope, the slope you don't ski can't kill you. It's a defensive mindset that finds reason not to ski a slope and there is extensive research into the human factors that cause people to make bad decisions even in the face of overwhelming evidence that the decision is a bad one. The video above A Dozen More Turns is actually entirely about that so would be a good watch and the linked short presentation/questions will help explain the overall picture.

To put a grim slant on it, if someone has the kit and no idea about the rest at least it makes the task of recovering their body easier. Shocked

Reading back through some of your posts it seems you've had experience with at least one avalanche in the past.

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I am kind of hoping that one is my full quota.

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planeurge, I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Notices on the mountain make lots of sense, there are a lot of idiots out there who will ski anything just because they can see it. I'm all for a bit of Darwin and all that but they are exposing other people and the SAR teams to risk.

I do hear what you are are trying to say about the avy gear - kind of. If you got killed in a slide because the teams took 45 minutes to get a dog team / probe line together wouldn't you feel like a bit of a berk for not spending 200gbp on something that DRAMATICALLY improves your chances?

FYI: I don't carry a beeper so people can find me, having a shovel and probe in my pack does not help me rescue myself, I have a beeper in case I ever need to come to the assistance of others who have been involved in an avalanche.

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You know it makes sense.

meh, you say "Most people trigger the avalanche that kills them so the biggest part of keeping safe skiing off-piste is making good calls about what to ski" - but more people actually get "taken out" whilst ski touring (going up) and snow shoeing.

As I've said before in these threads on Avalanches etc - going up whilst on skins is way more scary that going down - even the most sublime slope can kill - ABS packs might weigh a ton whilst touring but I feel way safer.

That said last year an aspirant guide set a tiny slide off above me that knocked me off my feet and took me down three or four metres - I bought the ABS after that!

These figures are 2008 - 2009

Avalanche Fatalities By Activity

Ski Touring 18*
Off Piste Skiing 8
Snowboard Touring 0
Off Piste Snowboarding 1
Snowshoeing 3
Climbing 4
Walking 0
Skiing 0

http://pistehors.com/backcountry/wiki/Avalanches/French-Avalanche-And-Off-Piste-Accidents-2008-2009

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Weathercam, and for the US you have to add in Snowmobiles, I do not have the figures to hand but its quite significant in the USA

A snowHead

A snowHead

meh, think you're being a wee bit pedantic there......if you were to read the frequent reports / news from sites such as Pisthors French randonee sites http://www.skitour.fr/ then you'll know that more accidents happen going up - hence 3 snow shoers, not exactly going down were they, well I suppose they could have been..........?

I'm not too sure if once they (ski tourers) are skiing down it's classified as off piste ?

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Weathercam, i am not sure that the ski tourer stat necessarily means they were going uphill when the avalanche happened (maybe davidof can confirm)

seems swings and roundabouts to me on whether uphill or downhill is more dangerous. individually you put more stress on the snowpack on the way down, but you are often exposed for more time on the way up and it is more difficult/time consuming to spread out when going uphill

edit: this is one where the activity is classified as ski touring but the victims were descending when the avalanche triggered:

http://pistehors.com/news/ski/comments/0893-deadliest-weekend-in-french-alps-since-2006/

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Arno, that's the crux I suppose what is the definition..........though not too sure what you mean by "and it is more difficult/time consuming to spread out when going uphill" ??

Soon as surrounding conditions are remotely questionable then you spread out with gaps at least 30ms between you - the only time consuming bit is waiting whilst your mates in front start off at 30ms intervals, you then have to hang back if you start catching them up etc etc

Like I've said before been in a couple of scenarios and I do not want a repeat of that - and you can see how a group can get taken out!

Spreading out along the slope just lowers the odds as it were - still none too relaxing when going up !

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Weathercam, you can spread out but:

1. you can't realistically only ever have 1 of you on the slope like you can when going downhill
2. groups have a tendency to bunch up even if they start out well spaced

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Thanks for that Davidof - sort of confirms why I feel far more exposed when climbing than descending - and have to admit, did not think about Dynafit & ABS complications !!!!!!!!!

So will that mean from now on I only use my skis with the Marker Barons when touring, have not seen this mentioned anywhere else ?

And Arno will try and dig out some photos of us spread out on various big faces, logic being if it goes above you, not all of you will be taken out, allowing for those who were not hit to attempt to rescue their friends.

I certainly did not know about the 1000x more dangerous bit - though did guess touring was more dangerous in the long run purely from the stats & gut feel etc etc

Weathercam, i totally agree with the logic of spreading out - i'm just saying you can't spread out as effectively when going uphill. 30m is better than not spreading out but as soon as the person 30m ahead of you does a switchback you have people crossing the slope above you

contrast with the descent where people can go from point of safety to point of safety and it doesn't delay things unreasonably to have people skiing the whole slope one at a time

i have been avalanched while wearing fritschis and did not succeed in kicking them off - with the heel released it is quite hard to get the leverage. fortunately it became clear very quickly that i wasn't going to get buried and that there wasn't any terrain issue so i stopped trying to kick the skis off, but it was quite instructive nonetheless

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Arno, there's no way in our group would anyone do a kick turn and carry on above us, totally trashes the whole concept of spreading out. In tight situations we'd turn in a safety area and if necessary wait until the person has traversed across the slope to another area of safety, then the next one will go etc etc - so now we're getting into time consuming rolling eyes

Anyway all this does make you think and hopefully we'll still be in our brains once out there and not just when sitting behind a keyboard!

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I am very pleased to see that posting this info and asking these questions have stimulated some very interesting responses. The fact that the French authorities are now looking into the whole issue of safe off piste skiing means we all need to take great care out there to look out for each other. If I come across anything else like this that might be of interest I will post it as well. Fun and Safe Skiing Very Happy

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As someone has said already, I would have thought it was to discourage the average knobend from having a go off-piste without the proper gear or knowledge.

Experienced guides know the risks, although as we've sadly seen, avalanches still can and do happen despite all the risk evaluation.

You know it makes sense.

It is a real pity that none of those that had strong views about what would and what would not be covered by Insurers in earlier threads regarding off piste skiing have not commented on this thread now that we have some actual signs that have been displayed by resorts.

I have emailed a copy of the original post to Russell, Director of Snowcard who posted on another thread. He did give his email address, but until now he has not commented. I have noticed that in their policy wording, taking due care and following local authority advice are mentioned. Therefore it would be good to hear how those in the Industry interpret this type of advice posted on resort notice boards for all to see.

I hope we get a response from someone in the know soon.

Alan McGregor, On another point. You are or were a SCGB Rep, now a Leader.

'Every insurance policy (for anything), whatever it covers, will have a clause requiring you to behave responsibly and take reasonable precautions. If you ski off-piste without appropriate equipment, most professionals will say you have behaved irresponsibly and not taken reasonable precautions. At that point, you are on very weak ground with your insurance company.'

How does what you have written here fit in with the SCGB policy of not insisting that all it's members carry all recommended equipment when going off piste. Are they not now on very dodge ground in a places like Tignes / Val d'Isere with signs clearly stating what should be carried by everyone in the group. I believe they have 5 leader/reps working full time in this ski area alone. No matter what statement they read out, they are the Ski Leader now and so this puts them right in the firing line should something go wrong. What do you or anyone else think about this point?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Here is the reply in full that I have received from Russell Dadson, Director, Snowcard Insurance. I hope you all find his reply as helpful as I have. Basically, if you are insured by them, the notices in Tignes/Val 'd'Isere are considered local authority advice and therefore should be followed.

Hi Chris,

Thanks for your email and sorry for the delay, I’ve been away skiing this past week!

No off piste unfortunately – just sheet ice and no powder in sight in the Trois Vallees!

We do ask clients to follow piste authority advice – in the case of your quote below it would appear to constitute advice which would have to be followed.

Level 2 warnings are a moderate warning – having said this, the way different slopes or snow conditions may affect the local piste authorities view on safety will vary from region to region. If Espace Killy post a warning like that they must have good reason, either that or they have had enough of rescuing ill equipped or inexperienced skiers and are trying to enforce a greater sense of responsibility for off piste activity.

In connection with Henry’s Avalanche Talk (an off piste forum) we have tried to clarify what following safety advice means in practice. I think what you have below is a clear example of the sort of advice that shouldn’t be ignored. If they recommend transceiver, probe and shovel then they should be carried.

I have heard that Espace Killy operate a list of insurers they will not bill directly and will ask for payment at the time of rescue. Snowcard is not on that list and as far as I understand, it is the budget insurers who exclude off piste cover without guides that have caused the problem. Espace Killy must have reason to behave in they way they are, I am not aware that other ski areas are acting in this way but this season it does seem that the whole issue of off piste safety is being debated a lot more. I know there is a lot of concern that ill equipped and inexperienced skiers and boarders are causing problems not only for rescue authorities but also insurers.

Having insurance for off piste activity is not something that skiers and boarders should take lightly – if they want the cover they must use common sense and have the skill levels and equipment to do it safely. If they don’t, I can see many insurers withdrawing from the market and the likes of Snowcard will have to either tighten our rules or charge more. It is a fine balancing act and a topic I keep a close eye on.

Our info page is:

http://www.snowcard.co.uk/activities-ski-board.php

I hope this helps.

Kind regards

Russell Dadson, Director, Snowcard Insurance

Also, Mondial Assistance in a statement provided some time ago to another person and posted on my facebook group confirmed that they would expect skiers to comply with local authority advice (see my facebook group discussions page for the full details).

In brief they wrote: Mondial Assistance: The following applies to all travel Insurance policies that Mondial underwrite in the UK and Republic of Ireland.

General off piste guidance (which we would expect insurance customer to observe) are as follows:

· Do not ski/board alone
· Always ski with a guide/instructor unless you are very familiar with the resort/area
· As a minimum, a shovel, probe and transceiver should be carried
· Check local weather forecasts and avalanche warnings every day
. Do not ignore any warning signs or local advice
· Do not ski if the avalanche warning is 4 or 5

So the recommendations seem to be quite clear. At least from one Underwriter and one Insurance Company. It would be interesting to know how others interpret these replies.

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Just getting back to the OP, I don't think the advice on the sign at Tignes is really much different from the warnings that have been in place on the backs of lift passes and piste maps for years and years. There's always been something along the lines of "if you ski off-piste, use the proper equipment and we strongly recommend using a guide."

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stevomcd, "if you ski off-piste, use the proper equipment and we strongly recommend using a guide." That is much the same as they have in Les Arcs as well, but putting it on a board at all the main off piste areas is something new and very pro-active. Personally I think it is a good thing, just as the 'out of bounds' gate in Les Arcs is this season. It makes people think a bit more before going into these places.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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snowcrazy,

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Bode Swiller, as all policy wordings which have been underwritten by Mondial that I have seen do include the point about following local authority advice and as Russell from Snowcard who does know what he is talking about has stated that it would be very unwise to tell people not to follow the advice that has been posted by resorts, I suspect that on this point you are incorrect and if the worst happened and someone was caught by an avalanche and it later was proved that they did not carry the correct equipment, an Insurance company would be within their rights to turn down the claim. Only a test case will resolve this issue (something we all hope will not happen) and so until then we will have too agree to disagree.

stoatsbrother, yes I was a Rep in the past and one of my complaints was the lack of safety gear that was carried by all the group and lack of training in how to use it. I was pro-active on these points myself and use to (and still do) take people to the avalanche park for training before going off piste plus asking them to rent the full gear if they wish to ski off piste with me (and still do).

As achilles, has stated, whilst on Fresh Tracks holidays all those on full off piste holidays are expected to have all the kit, those even this year on other holidays and when with leaders in Resorts only have to have a transceiver, why?. Plus how many of those with them even know how to use one. If you read the details of the signs posted in Espace Killy, it states it might take 60min plus to find and get someone out with only a transceiver. As Alain posted, which is why I asked the question, 'most professionals will say you have behaved irresponsibly and not taken reasonable precautions'. Anyone that has tried searching in an avalanche or digging someone out will know that only having one or two people in the group with the gear is not enough, everyone should have it. I would be very surprised if anyone disagrees with this principle and can justify people not carrying the correct gear or not knowing how to use it.

I agree, stoatsbrother, it would seem a shame to see this useful thread descend into yet another sterile discussion of insurance T&Cs which few of us are qualified to interpret. But to discuss carrying the correct gear and knowing how to use it plus posting any other useful 'local authority advice' that I might come across is worth while I think.

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Bode Swiller, Like I already said, we will just have to agree to disagree. You said it yourself, local authority advice/serious warning/ill-prepared. To you they might be different, to most people I think they are the same thing. For me they are. All a matter of interpretation. I am not going to continue this argument of what is or is not meant by this word or that. I put the information out there, whether you think it is correct or not is your opinion. Other people can read it and make there own minds up. But of course you are welcome to have the last word on the subject even if it is just to justify the SCGB position of not having those skiing off piste carrying the correct safety equipment as recommended by the Espace Killy Piste Security.

I hope you enjoy your skiing next week. I wonder, will you be going off piste without the safety gear mentioned in the notice that kicked this thread off no matter which resort you may be in? If you are ever in Les Arcs, it would be good to meet for a beer and discuss this and other Insurance issues further.

snowcrazy, Beer yes, always, but where have I said that people shouldn't carry the holy trinity of safety gear? Again, you're not reading. I do mention that there's no point carrying it unless you know how to use it (save for having a beacon which might lead to your own rescue) - yet the advice you refer to as being "clear" only says you should carry the gear. Mad.

And this is not a matter of opinion - the Mondial policy wordings to which you refer (a) do not mention "local authority advice", (b) do not mention which avalanche risk levels are OK and (c) do not specify the carrying of safety gear or knowing how to use it.

So I'll happily have that beer but not until you have signed in blood that you have actually read and understood the very documents you have set out to question. You're out there offering quasi insurance advice so I think you need to be far more exacting.

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I'm just going to throw this in the mix and pick up on the "Do not ski if the avalanche warning is 4 or 5" quoted above. What if risk aversion changed that to 3 or above? The headline avalanche forecast for Thursday for Lochaber is "HIGH" (Category 4).

However this is the detailed SAIS hazard rose for the Nevis Range mountains for Thursday:

White figures are height in m, the centre of the rose representing the highest terrain, summit of Ben Nevis.

Green = Low
Yellow = Moderate
Orange = Considerable
Red = High
Circles within sectors represent localised risk.

Help!!

What do people make of this warning! Off piste safety.

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