 Poster: A snowHead
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As I am not skiing today I thought I would share something I saw in Tignes / val d'Isere a few days ago and see what other people think!
I have just been skiing in Tignes / Val d'Isere and the 'security de piste' have posted the following notice which is very clear and leaves very little to be misunderstood.
Having talked with the pisteurs about the notice they say this notice has been up for a while and they just change the avalanche risk level on the board.
Quote: "Attention, Off piste wind slabs everywhere, No shovel, No Probe, No Transceiver, No OFF PISTE. Risk 2"
They have also posted a detailed notice board chart at various off piste entry points giving information on rescue times without full kit, where to get info before going off piste, what kit you should carry and the training needed so that you know how to use it. Remember, longer than 15min and the person is not likely to recover.
These signs are in English as well!!
Now my question to everyone, with a notice like this being posted by the piste security authority. Does this count as local authority advice and therefore if you ignore such advice will you invalidate your insurance should you be involved in an accident off piste and need to claim?
Perhaps more importantly, if you are the most experienced person in the group (whether qualified or not), will the local authorities ie. the mountain gendarmes, consider you have been negligent by letting people come and ski with you off piste without the correct gear and knowing how to use it now that a signs like this has been posted and you have not taken due care to make sure your mates have the right kit etc? One person has already posted that they have seen similar signs starting to appear in other resorts.
Please look on photo section in my facebook group for pictures of all these notices. It is public access so know need to be a facebook member.
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=134900026541300&v=photos
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The Paradiski map for this season, for the first time, states quite clearly in French and English that once the lifts are closed all the area is Out of Bounds.
So get back/lost a little late and most policys will not cover you?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The notices appear to say that if you don't have the kit don't go off-piste, since this would be standard advice from any accountable authority I can't see that it changes anything.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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So far as kit is and taking advice of the local authorities with regard to insurance - that will depend on your insurance policy. I don't recall the BMC policy requiring you to take into account local authority advice - but then I can't imagine the sort of persons who take BMC insurance not being properly equipped or taking due care. OTOH for other poilcies I have had, the signs would seem to me to have been binding. In terms of the law, that will depend on the country you are in. From what davidof has written in the past, in France if no individual is clearly in the lead, then the most experienced skier can be held to have had the deciding mind, and be held to account for an incident.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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That same sign was there when I went in early December too.
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snowcrazy, well spotted and thanks for the post on this.
I suppose the other question is are the ski areas trying to cover themselves more as well, if they have received legal advice advising them to inform off piste riders rather than just suggesting that people have the correct kit.
It has been common practise for some time in St Foy for the Lift and piste patrol to stop and ask people if they have transceiver shovel and probe before letting them in to the better know off piste areas.
The "most experienced person" situation is a interesting point, I would guess that this would be difficult for the authorites to prove or act upon. However I would hope that the more experinced off piste riders amongest us would not take people off piste unless they had the correct gear.
We had a situation last season when only 4 out of 5 of us had the correct gear, we did do one off piste run which was a marked and patrolled run, however after skiing it once, the others, all in there early 20's wanted to do it again! It was 3pm and getting a little warm so I gave my gear to the other guy and I took the piste route down and meet them at the bottom.
Would I have been the most exerienced person because of my age? I guess so, was I also negligent in letting them actually ski the slope at that time of day? WOW its a tough area to get into.
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| snowcrazy wrote: |
| "Attention, Off piste wind slabs everywhere, No shovel, No Probe, No Transceiver, No OFF PISTE. Risk 2" |
Sign in itself is a bit contradictory, is it not? Simplistically, 'wind slabs everywhere' infers more dangerous than usual, 'Risk 2' infers less dangerous than usual.
I still agree with the message though.
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| snowcrazy wrote: |
Quote: "Attention, Off piste wind slabs everywhere, No shovel, No Probe, No Transceiver, No OFF PISTE. Risk 2"
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This notice confused me too. At first I understood it to mean that you shouldn't go off-piste at all at present. However, re-reading it and the posts above, I presume it really means: "Wind slabs - take extra care and no off-piste if you're not fully equipped." If the second interpretation is what was meant, then something like "No off-piste without shovel, probe and transceiver" might have been clearer.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Interesting. Most insurance policies (including ours, with American Express) would then only cover you for off-piste with the relevant equipment. That advice was probably buried in resort small-print anyway, but if it's up on the boards nobody could claim to have been unaware of it.
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--Newb Disclaimer--
What exactly is a windslab? And what impact does it have on the risk of skiing?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Leeds_Skier, a layer of snow that has been formed by old snow being whipped up by the wind and deposited on a leeward slope. A windslab, like any layer of snow, can cause an avalanche if it is not well bonded to the layer below it.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Good article.
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You know it makes sense.
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What's the problem? Do you really want to be taking people who don't have the gear into that terrain - what if you're buried?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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fatbob, What if you are only at the side of the piste (I know hthere's no such thing as "a little bit off-piste) e.g. in our lesson in Tignes the instructor took us down off piste to the side of the piste and between pistes where there was nothing above us to avalanche onto the area; we had no equipment but equally would have been hard pressed to have been buried in the 4" of powder
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Poster: A snowHead
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holidayloverxx, It's all a hypothetical notion that an insurance company may possibly decline a payout if you are [a little] off piste [without a guide blah blah] and have an accident or require rescue. The accident could potentially be anything, and possibly completely unrelated to snow conditions - a heart attack would require rescue, for instance. As far as I know this is all theory as there appears to be no hard evidence to suggest any company has in fact declined a payment for someone 'a little' off piste.... or can someone correct me?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Every insurance policy (for anything), whatever it covers, will have a clasue requiring you to behave responsibly and take reasonable precautions.
If you ski off-piste without appropriate equipment, most professionals will say you have behaved irresponsibly and not taken reasonable precautions.
At that point, you are on very weak ground with your insurance company.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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RobinS, I agree, and dont understand why anyone would go serious offpiste routes at Level 2 and above without the right gear, INCLUDING airbag ABS etc.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Markymark29, you have to remember that some people are not as well informed and may never have even considered the dangers of off-piste.
For uses of this forum, and other sites like Pistehors, there is a vast array of information on the subject, but some people are just not aware of it. Some skiers have never had lessons either, so at no point will an instructor have pointed out a dodgy looking slab to them, even if they were on the piste.
I saw these signs and boards out in Tignes last year, and thought that it was good to have the information out there, along with reminders to test your equipment is working. Some people who are currently unaware of the dangers might just become a little more informed.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Scarlet, Yes, fair point!!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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rob@rar, daehwons,
Very informative thank you.
I remember a few lifties on the Kaprun glacier looking quite nervous at the sight of a wind slab or something that fits its description developing high up on the Kitzsteinhorn. Needless to say, the piste bashers were soon on the mountain and the slopes that were at risk were closed.
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Scarlet, Very fair point, it amazes me that I have to persuade people to buy a shovel and probe with their transceiver 
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The sign is at Tovieres, where most people start the Valley Perdu. I think it's a good thing but have still watched solo skiers and groups with no packs going off on the trail
The avi risk is 1 today and the VP is mogulled, totally tracked out and pointless but people will do it today and then have another if they are lucky enough to have a powder dump.
To me the sign just said take the correct precautions if going off piste.
The sign at the start of Cretes says 'never freeride alone'. This is also ignored.
There should also be a sign that says please do not go off piste if you cannot link your turns.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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livetoski,
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it amazes me that I have to persuade people to buy a shovel and probe with their transceiver
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Nah you need to buy your mate a shovel and probe to go with his. 
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| livetoski wrote: |
| ... it amazes me that I have to persuade people to buy a shovel and probe with their transceiver |
Lend them yours when you go off piste with them.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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T Bar, Adrian,  I usually do have spares with me for that sort of occasion
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Just as a matter of interest, how many of you experts who have the transceivers, probes and shovels, have ever used them?
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| planeurge wrote: |
| Just as a matter of interest, how many of you experts who have the transceivers, probes and shovels, have ever used them? |
I'm no expert, and I suppose it depends on what it means to have "ever used them", but I regularly do practice searches with my transceiver and probe in avalanche parks, I've dug snowpits and buried backpacks with my shovel and done timed search exercises. Happily I've never had to locate and dig out a real victim, and long may that continue to be the case.
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You know it makes sense.
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No, I meant the real thing.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I have never used them in an emergency. I have twice observed others using shovels to dig out a person from a small slide; transceivers were not needed as the people were visible and they were not hurt. Both times were several years ago.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| planeurge wrote: |
| Just as a matter of interest, how many of you experts who have the transceivers, probes and shovels, have ever used them? |
You are asking the wrong question. What's more interesting to know is how many people die each year from avalanches, and then the % of those that don't have the necessary safety gear. Each year we see many people "survive" avalanches, but each situation is unique.
I have carried a beeper for well over 12 years and am happy to say that I have never had to use it. I have only once ever searched an area in anger, a slide that we did not see if there was anyone buried or not - after four of us searched a small area for around 30 minutes we decided there was nobody in the slide. We reported it to the local authorities, no one was ever reported missing.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| planeurge wrote: |
| Just as a matter of interest, how many of you experts who have the transceivers, probes and shovels, have ever used them? |
I'm no expert and will be very happy if I get through my life without ever having to use them for real and having "wasted" the money.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Fatbob, money well wasted I would say 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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quote]
if you are the most experienced person in the group (whether qualified or not), will the local authorities ie. the mountain gendarmes, consider you have been negligent by letting people come and ski with you off piste without the correct gear and knowing how to use it
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Highly unlikely. You aren't responsible for your adult mates who are not paying you for any kind of guiding service. Remember that this is not the UK with its obsessive Mummy-knows-best culture - you are at liberty to to make your own decisions, however poor they may turn out to be.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| Quote: |
if you are the most experienced person in the group (whether qualified or not), will the local authorities ie. the mountain gendarmes, consider you have been negligent by letting people come and ski with you off piste without the correct gear and knowing how to use it
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Highly unlikely. You aren't responsible for your adult mates who are not paying you for any kind of guiding service. Remember that this is not the UK with its obsessive Mummy-knows-best culture - you are at liberty to to make your own decisions, however poor they may turn out to be. |
OK, but there are these people who are recognised as being 'unofficial' guides, what about them? Where does their responsibility end? No money changes hands and all very sociable, but if there was to be an 'accident'...?
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parlor, I would be more interested in knowing what percentage of skiers survive having been buried. I suspect it is small.
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planeurge, there are some statistics in this article on Piste Hors.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, Yes, I followed your thread "Is it safe?" I think the only sensible answer is, No it is not. But that does not put people off doing it. If I had the skills, I might do it myself.
From what I have read, though, all the equipment does not make it significantly safer. None of it is going to stop the avalanche hitting you/sweeping you away. It might make a very small difference to your survival chances. That is all.
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