 Poster: A snowHead
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| Yoda wrote: |
| ski, I understand the words, but trying to keep my pelvis tilted upwards means that I seem to get "locked" and hence lose a large part of my normal vertical range of free movement when skiing. It just doesn't feel natural. |
From my understanding, it doesn't seem to be a case of locking your pelvis forward, indeed if you do this you will struggle to bend your knees and hips in a turn - you'd have to. I think the emphasis is on tucking your bum in a bit - kind of avoiding the problem I have where moving hands/head/chest forward just results in sticking my backside out to balance it, the pressure on the boot and ski is the same as if I just stood up and leaned back. Then again I am learning as we go through the thread, trying to pay attention and come away with less than 3 things to focus on. Largely because I am a simple creature that can't remember more than 3 things at once.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| altis wrote: |
| IMV, tipping your pelvis "North" |
I've never understood this point about rotating your pelvis. It was mentioned once in a ski lesson I had and I had trouble visualising it or feeling whether I was doing it or not. |
After reading this I wonder if a good clue would be your back. Rounded or Hollow.
FastMan Interesting photo's ref. Crouched or Athletic stance. Do you have any video of them 'in action' to compare ?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| FastMan wrote: |
| DBAs to your observations of the AThletic Stance photo; the difference in shin angle you see in my Athletic Stance photo is because of the extra flexion necessary in my uphill/inside leg. Both skis are on the same edge angle, but my inside leg needs to be shorter, so it's flexed more. And: because of the forced ankle flexion a ski boot imposes, remaining center balanced in an Athletic Stance can produce that slight "leaning back" appearance you see. The goal is to try to stack the pelvis and shoulders in a straight line above the feet. Don't let the pelvis project rearward, and the shoulders forward, as shown in the crunched stance. |
Interesting - I wouldn't of thought that such a low edge angle would show a marked difference in the legs but it could be those funny long patches on the knees/lower leg making it look worse than it is. Always thought the altheltic stance should be like a goalkeeper jsut before a penalty is taken.
This guy isn't standing too tall but I hear he can ski a bit 
http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/dy5JuIUXy2T/Audi+FIS+World+Cup+Men+Slalom/N-k_TyOAiP1
Is the main difference between him and us mere mortals the increased ankle flex (i.e. Speaking technically here - is he flexing his boots more and sticking his bum out less?)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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pam w,
Thanks, I just wish I knew what north/south pelvic tilt meant - sounds like it could improve my aim.
Mike3000,
I'm thinking beginners tend to bend the knees more, ankles less and stick their bums out = back / toilet seat skiing. (possibly trying to copy a slalom skier) I think a ski boot can be flexed in mid air (shin forward & pull the toes back) - would be interested to know if top class slalom skiers heavily load the front of the skis or achieve ankle flex by some other means. (e.g. Do they load the tips on the way in and the tails on the way out of the turn?)
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| Quote: |
I just wish I knew what north/south pelvic tilt meant
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OK. do this. sit on a chair, imagine it's a toilet, and you have to sit down to wee. What you need to do to ensure the wee goes down into the water is to tilt your pelvis forward (or south) to be sure to point Percy at the porcelain. That's the sh*t position. Then imagine making love - thrussssst - that's the sh*g position, or pelvis north.
Your pelvis is a basin. If you tilt it to pour water out of the front, that's south (away from your head, towards your feet). Tilt to pour water out of the back - tilted under - that's north (up towards your head).
My first thought of how to illustrate north and south was actually quite rude, so I changed it.
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Ah I get it - the south is sh*t because you have to go up North for a good sh*g.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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DB,
| Quote: |
Thanks, I just wish I knew what north/south pelvic tilt meant
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Just try sitting down. As you're about to hit the chair or whatever, the front of your lower body will be pushed downwards and your bum will be pushed out. I think that's what pam w means by a south pelvic tilt. Not to be recommended for anything except sitting down. However, whilst engaged abs are good for protecting the back and for maintaining a good stance generally (not just on skis) I would respectfully suggest that, if you attempt an actual movement of the pelvis northwards* while standing up - the sort of pelvic thrust illustrated as a floor exercise in altis' post on Saturday afternoon - that is likely to rock you back slightly on your heels. I suspect that that is one of the reasons that FastMan may be advocating that one should simply stand tall and concentrate on ankle flexion. This is not to say, however, that the lower abdominal muscles shouldn't be engaged - they should, they give your whole body stability and, as pam w says, protect your back.
I'm not holding myself out as knowing anything about ski technique, btw, my observations/guesses stem from doing lots of Pilates. (One of) the great things about doing pelvic thrust exercises on the floor is that they teach you what it feels like to have a really engaged core/non-hollowed back. You simply can't do them if your core is not engaged and your back at all hollowed.
And now I see that the discussion has moved on...never mind, I'll leave this anyway.
*ie what pam w so graphically describes as 'thrussssst - that's the sh*g position'
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| pam w wrote: |
| The crude way of describing the desired stance, rob, is "shag not sh*t". |
An oft used phrase. I'm reluctant to focus on achieving a particular body position for fear that it would rapidly become a fixed stance (and for that reason I wouldn't want to teach it either). If there is something about my body position that is inhibiting me from making the movements I want to make that is a different matter, but I'm very wary of looking at individual parts of the body such as pelvis or arms or shoulders and suggesting they should be held in a particular position. It's too risky that by focusing on that part of your body you lose sight of the bigger picture of the dynamic movements you really should be making.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| rob@rar, yes, but...the word "drills" is used in the thread title, and that does to me imply an exercise which you wouldn't hold, at least for any length of time, on the hill. |
Yes, fair point. I just don't think doing Rocky Horror Picture Show impressions is a good way to deal with being in the back seat - the problem starts much lower down your body than what Johnny Todger does.
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rob@rar,
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the problem starts much lower down your body than what Johnny Todger does.
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Yes, indeed, I don't think anybody's denying that ankle flexion (for starters) has a lot to do with all this.
Nicely put, btw!
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You know it makes sense.
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It's the pelvic thrust,
That really drives you insane.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| - the problem starts much lower down your body than what Johnny Todger does. |
Suppose it depends how well endowed the skier is. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Somebody's going to have to cut and paste this thread into Boris' Bar in a minute. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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DB, ah, didn't realise it was a quote, just thought Rob was having relationship issues.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Fastman can help with pelvic thrusts, rumour has it that's how he allegedly got his login-name
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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FastMan, pam w, rob@rar, Monium,
i was suddenly cured of back seat, rotation etc etc within one session......after many years of crapness.
i was told...throw away the poles....goalkeeper stance, hands ready to receive ball.....glide, long leg/short leg (lateral) and be patient in the fall line.it worked a treat. 
Years of frustration melted away. Now that's good teaching.
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| david@mediacopy wrote: |
FastMan Interesting photo's ref. Crouched or Athletic stance. Do you have any video of them 'in action' to compare ? |
I do in my Building Blocks instructional DVDs. Perhaps I should extract a couple video clips of athletic and crouched skiing for my glossary.
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| DB wrote: |
Interesting - I wouldn't of thought that such a low edge angle would show a marked difference in the legs but it could be those funny long patches on the knees/lower leg making it look worse than it is. Always thought the altheltic stance should be like a goalkeeper jsut before a penalty is taken.
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If I had been facing down the falline in that shot, less inside knee flexion would have been present. As I'm pointing across the falline, the uphill foot downhill foot factor comes into play, and requires more flexion of the uphill knee to shorten the leg.
Yes. At different stages of a turn, and at bigger edge angles, the athletic stance will look different. This photo still represents a strong athletic stance, by virtue of the long and strong outside leg. Later in that turn, Marcel will begin shortening his right leg and lengthening his left leg, as he transitions into a new turn. Mid way through that next turn he will have returned to an athletic stance, with a long and strong outside leg.
| Quote: |
| Is the main difference between him and us mere mortals the increased ankle flex (i.e. Speaking technically here - is he flexing his boots more and sticking his bum out less?) |
Careful. As important as ankle flexion is in balance management, using too much while trying to stay center balanced can actually cause the bum to stick out more.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
This photo still represents a strong athletic stance, by virtue of the long and strong outside leg. Later in that turn, Marcel will begin shortening his right leg and lengthening his left leg, as he transitions into a new turn. Mid way through that next turn he will have returned to an athletic stance, with a long and strong outside leg.
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you see, i told you so
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I have heard this before: "Be a giver not a taker"
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You know it makes sense.
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Not sure on current thinking but back in the day my awareness of fore and aft positioning was gained by skiing with rear release boots undone so you soon knew if leaning back. (soon worked out not to lean on the front of the boots all the time too as that was what I thought I'd been taught as a beginner now guess was a general ploy to stop people leaning back too! )
Bringing the pelvis forward by imagining skiing with a coin or a €50 note if feeling flush between your butt cheeks and trying not to drop it. (Best stick to imagining I don't want any currency actually used !!!) Both helped no end and I think still do. Apologies if not current but still seem to work for me.
Sorry Altis see you mentioned coin between butt cheeks too! technical enough for me 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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david@mediacopy,
Look at the outside leg in each photo - especially the joint flexion and relationship to hip....
On the steeps bit - well he is standing on flat(ish) snow! Imagine though if you tilt the snow up at the back to 'make a steep'. Now he will be leaning forward more as he would when skiing the steep.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| david@mediacopy wrote: |
FastMan,
| Quote: |
| Yes. At different stages of a turn, and at bigger edge angles, the athletic stance will look different. This photo still represents a strong athletic stance, by virtue of the long and strong outside leg. |
I confess I'm a little confused here. One of the key features of the 1st photo is the very upright upper body, so is your athletic stance really about the amount of knee and ankle flex ?
As DB suggested above, I'd have thought skiing steeps \ shorts effectively with an upright upper body as per the first pic is going to be difficult - it was for me |
The athletic stance is about keeping your body as skeletally aligned as possible. That provides the strongest, most relaxing stance for skiing.
My very upright stance above is the most aligned, and thus strongest of possible stances. It works very well for low edge angle steered turns on moderate terrain. As edge angles grow and turns become more dynamic, inside knee flexion will increase, to allow for bigger edge angles, and angulation will increase, to allow for balancing, but the skeletal alignment remains in the all important outside leg. This is what we see in the Hirscher photo.
Different forms of the athletic stance, to provide for different types of turns, while maintaining as much skeletal alignment as is possible and functional. Watch for it in how long and strong the outside leg is. That's where the athletic stance remains consistent in various types of turns.
Note;
This may be my last post for several days. I'm off to Breckenridge tomorrow to conduct an intro to racing camp over the weekend for a big group of people from across the country, and across the pond. catch ya all later.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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FastMan,
have a great time
oh and invest in some new pants dude
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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FAQ
for a start, his pelvis is north. 
