Advice needed

A snowHead

Ray Zorro, wow, I live near Gstaad, I'd no idea we were in the top 15, that's amazing. It's a nice area actually, little visited by Brit's, but ironically, I'd have said it was a bit low Very Happy

I guess those figures refer to Rougemont, that's a sub area of Gstaad with very reliabe snow.

A snowHead

Ray Zorro, thanks. Interesting that Risoul and Montgenèvre should figure so highly, given the disastrous season that they had last year!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

PG, even though I'm new here, I'm not going to roll over or go away just 'cos you're quarrelsomely defensive Laughing

Ray Zorro, Excellent. Just what we need. Do you know or is there data easily available to show us cumulative totals for each month of the season over the last decade? Is Austria really generally comparable in snow conditions to France over the season? Then we could prove our local snowHead

s right (which I'd be perfectly happy with and actually would be tickled to have happen) and our media lying toads! Very Happy

You need to Login to know who's really who.

slikedges, no but you could have started by being polite Laughing

You'd be hard pressed to find any other posts on this forum where the likes of "@rrsols" is applied to anyone. Without that, I wouldn't have reacted in the first place. This isn't Jwaz or Usenet.

It takes two to tango.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

slikedges, there's the historical snow reports at SCGB - give the upper and lower snow depths week by week Nov-Apr for each of the last 11 years, and the weekly averages over all that period. As mentioned by someone earlier in the thread though this doesn't quite tell the whole story: you only need a few centimetres for decent skiing if the slopes are alpine meadow (e.g. Les Houches, Megeve?), but may need a metre or so if it's rocky mountainside (e.g. Argentiere).

You'll need to Register first of course.

The advice to avoid the UK half term weeks is excellent. To go ski-ing in France in mid February if you don't have children is completely crazy. Spending half your day standing in lift queues, and the other half ducking and weaving down crowded pistes is no fun. It is also crazy, IMHO, to travel to and from resorts on a Saturday, unless you have no choice. Even in quiet weeks a burst of bad weather can cause Saturday travel delays which make grown men weep. Your generous budget should enable you to choose hotels which are more flexible (more likely to be found in Austria or Switzerland than France, I suspect) But if going to France you should avoid ALL the French holiday weeks (4 weeks, from the second week in Feb to the first week of March, inclusive, especially the Paris zone weeks). Loads of websites have the details. Also try to avoid New Year - crowded and often not very good snow. Book late if you can, but if you go at the end of January or the second week in March, you should be OK.

Lots of good advice on resorts above - and you will note that there is no consensus! I hope I will not provoke another outburst of bad temper by suggesting that the Chamonix valley is not a great choice for beginners. As you are keen to make good progress with ski-ing, the quality of instruction available should be a major determinant of where you go. Have private lessons or use a school which guarantees small groups (max 6). And get fit enough to enjoy it.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

I do think that ise was needlessly blunt in his replies to Cathy Coins earlier in this thread. I thought that it was overly defensive in reaction to someone who was only trying to be helpful in their replies. It seemed to me a case of sour grapes when she supplied the quotes to back up her assertions. I hope that she has not been put off posting by the reaction.

This is only my personal view, and not those of the moderators as a group.

After all it is free

I do actually agree with Kramer, up to a point. However, using Jwaz-style 'disguised' insults as put-downs can only ever exacerbate the situation. Fortunately it happens extremely rarely on snowHeads.

PG, Fair enough. There's a quick, ill-considered, unguarded response for you Sad

. No real offence to the person was meant, just a sharp comment on the practice Little Angel

. Anyway, I can see offence could be reasonably taken, you're right it should be avoided, I apologise and withdraw it. I will edit the post accordingly. snowHead

GrahamN, I honestly do appreciate that already. It doesn't fully detract from my view though, does it? Is anyone who has the info to hand able to make a more definitive statement? Smile

Edit: PG, I just read your last post. Stop sniping at me unless you want to exacerbate this. You've had your say. I've accepted the only relevant bit.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

slikedges, regarding availability of historical snow reports, on that website that I gave, you can check only the last three years for any particular week of the season on a country by country basis. (Though I am not sure whether or not they have been updated to include this year). As GrahamN says, the SCGB has records that cover the last 12 seasons, however they can only be accessed by members. The rest of us can only see last year's figures. I am not aware of other available sources - but it would be useful to know.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

slikedges, I was responding directly to Kramer's slightly - imo - one-sided comment. My comment preceded your withdrawal of the word in question. This exchange wouldn't have happened in the first place with a more restrained use of language. It's rather ironic that you should now be getting on your high horse.

Before your edit I was about to propose a respectful truce. I stick with that offer.

snow reports

WOW - what a response. Its going to take me ages to digest all this information!

OK, firstly the debate about Austria or France - I don't know either, but I would be inclined to choose France, not because there is anything wrong with Austria, but because if all the tour companies are pushing us to France there will be more British people there and therefore:

A) more demand for English speaking Ski Schools, which for a beginner like me I think is a very good idea - skiing might be hard enough without a language barrier to contend with.

and

B) more British people that we can meet and compare notes with and build up Friendships.

So on the basis that it is France I have narrowed it down to three/four places:

La Plagne/ Les Arcs - the cable car between the two sounds like you get a good deal staying in either

Courcheval - gets a lot of recommendations but doesn't seem to appear on any of the "best for beginners" lists - is this right?

La Rosiere - Don't know much about this resort, so need to read some more on it.

I haven't mentioned Flaine, which appears on these "best for beginners" lists, but lots of reviews criticise it for being a bit charmless and for the apres ski being a bit dull - is this right?

Oh and in terms of date, I am quite flexible - late Jan, Feb or early March are all OK - what is the last week in Feb like? Do places run Saturday to Saturday or does it vary?

Let me know what you think, I'd love to know.

And once again, thanks for all your responses, I have been really impressed by this site, so much better than any of the other sites I have come across and so welcoming, it is making me look forward to my trip even more.

Thanks

Kos

You know it makes sense.

Goodness me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Boys, boys ........ the poor newcomer asked advice about where to go for his first holiday, he also stated the wish to go in February and to stay in a chalet so he and the Mrs could enjoy quiet wine-filled evenings in agreeable company. The thread has turned into a "where's best, and where do I like best, and the rest of you are nuts" sort of thing.

Note: Although I'm EXTREMELY biased towards LDA (naturally) I actually recommended another resort as being more suitable to the poor gentleman's needs. Here's a newcomer - let's try to give genuine advice based on his requirements!!!! Confused

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

ise, I'm not going to get into a he said, she said arguement with you, I'm just stating how it seemed to me, looking in from the outside.

A snowHead

easiski, some sensible words at last, you'd think we were trying to scare new members away. kosciosco, I love La Rosiere, and think it would be ideal for you.
Plenty of chalets, quiet but sociable at night, nice lunches. What more could you want?
Apart from Serre Chevalier of course, but mid-Feb next Winter will be seriously busy due to Turin Olympics, and I've heard rumours of ridiculous prices being charged for studios.
wink

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

kosciosco, in terms of language I found no problem with English tuition in Austria, Westendorf is popular with the Irish and Soll - also on Ski Welt is very English oriented. The Austrians were more into separating classes by language, whilst in Saas Fee and Val Cenis (quite a small French resort), classes appeared more likely to be dual language (this impression is based on a very small sample size). I think you'll find a number of people here who'd recommend native English speakers as the best option for teaching.

If you go somewhere like Courchevel - i.e. part of big ski area, you'll probably find some snowHeads knocking around. When we've been to the 3 valleys, which Courchevel belongs to, we've stayed in Val Thorens, mainly because it is the highest and we've gone around Easter. I've been put off Courchevel by the price.

Most tour ops run Saturday to Saturday, but a few run Sunday to Sunday - I think others have experience of this.

You need to Login to know who's really who.

The irony is that by joining in the debate, on whichever side, people are only adding to the negative effect on newcomers to the forum. So perhaps in circumstances like this we should take our differences into an "argument room" forum .... where all posts are deleted after say, one week maximum ... wink

In the meantime guys and girls kosciosco is back, happy, and thinks we've all made him welcome, so all fears about putting newbies off were unjustified snowHead

. Perhaps we should concentrate on giving him the info he needs...

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Hey Kramer, that's fine, I'm not that sensitive - I was brought up in the SCGB school of hard knocks after all. You get a much better class of selective quoting, misrepresenting and talking down to there! Very Happy

But you wonder why lurkers don't post when you get pounced on like that? Everything everyone says is just their opinion and is valid for that - this is a forum not a court of law. I am just sorry such a stupid argument erupted - I don't come here to argue, I can go to SCGB for that.

You'll need to Register first of course.

kosciosco, I won't comment on Austria vs. France as I've never skied in Austria.

With regard to the resorts you mention, my thoughts are:

Les Arcs: where I learnt to ski. They used to teach using the 'ski evolutif' method - starting on short skis and progressing to longer ones as the week goes on. I don't know if they still do that. I found it very effective for the first week. I would recommend 1800 to stay in but I don't have any experience of the new 1950.

La Plagne: lots of easy skiing but split into many small villages - some hideous, some a bit quiet. Belle Plagne is the village I would pick.

Courchevel: Masses of easy slopes to build confidence on. 1850 is the livliest area but it's also relatively expensive; I hear good things about 1650 but I've never stayed there. Part of the enourmous Trois Vallees area but that really isn't important for your first week.

La Rosiere: never been there but there are plenty of people around here who can advise you.

Flaine: Skiing is good and there is plenty for beginners. However, the architecture is dreadful and nightlife almost non-existant. I wouldn't recommend it for a first trip - there are plenty of better places. (Actually I quite like the way the resort 'dissappears' when viewed from a distance - the bare concrete seems to merge with the background). From a distance is best!

Of the ones you've listed, I'd pick Courchevel 1850 if you can get an affordable trip. Last week in January is a good time to go to get good snow (usually), cheaper prices and avoid the February crowds. If Courchevel is too expensive, I'd pick Les Arcs 1800.

All IMHO, of course Very Happy

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

kosciosco, IF you decide on La Plagne, I'd echo Alistair's plug for Belle Plagne. The ESF school for beginners is right in the village. Ski-in Ski-out from almost all properties and no car traffic in BP. Once you can move around a little there are loads of easy wide blues. It's the prettiest and almost the highest of the LP villages but is not noted for night life. Just a few bars and restaurants. But you weren't looking for action.
Chalet Balcons might suit you - it's not quite a traditional chalet - more of a multistorey block that looks like an overgrown chalet with several T.O.s handling different bits of it. Some have jaccuzzis in the bathrooms. Maitre Canter (the pub / restaurant next door) is quite lively around sundown (happy hours). Mind you, come to think of it all the chalets in BP are at least 3 storey buildings. Old, wooden built and rustic they are not.
As a first timer, honestly you are unlikely to need the Vanoise Express cable car. Either Les Arcs or La Plagne on it's own will give more than enough scope. You can always buy a single day upgrade if you just want to go over for the ride.
Enjoy your 1st time and if you can do some dry slope or snow dome instruction before you go it will make your first few days so much more enjoyable and productive.

After all it is free

Actually Cathy I would say that in the vast majority of cases newcomers are encouraged to post precisely because while lurking, they have been able to observe the prompt, detailed, accurate and friendly advice regulars endeavour to provide. A very large proportion of that advice comes from the major posters to this forum, both because they're fortunate enough to have the information at their fingertips and also because they are more than happy to spend a lot of time sharing their knowledge with fellow members.

That is no excuse for being uncivil, but on the very rare occasion frustration creeps through it's never with the newbie... and everyone has the occasional off day!

Valid points have been made all round in this thread. I sympathise with both points of view, but believe it's a real concern that misleading information may sometimes be innocently provided, as here with respect to Austria. This coming from someone with every interest to encourage people to visit France, and Les Arcs in particular, as well.

PG wrote

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

pam w, no argument from me that the Chamonix valley is not an ideal location for beginners. As it happens, I did pretty much all my early skiing there, loved every minute of it, and would ski there in preference to the majority of other places I've been, but would certainly not recommend it for beginners in general. I only mentioned those places in connection with the side-discussion on snow depth as examples with which I'm familar of different terrain types.

kosciosco, I've been to Flaine a couple of times and love it as an excellent introduction to off-piste. I don't think it's quite as charmless as is sometimes made out, but it's certainly not chocolate box - and to say the night-life is limited is probably still being generous. You are probably almost certainly right to avoid it for now - save it up for when you're looking for some more intermediate/advanced progression. If you were interested in that area though Samoens is probably the more appropriate area for a beginner (wider open pistes, prettier village, good gondola up to the pistes, not really ski-in/out, no idea about accommodation/night-life I'm afraid), but ise is probably the expert here on that Grand Massif area. I went to Les Arcs (Arc 1800) about 6 years ago, really quite liked it, but the topography does rather channel you into a single pinch point to get between the two valleys although that may not be so noticeable if you're only getting started. I also found it as charmless as Flaine and equally poor night-life (although we didn't look particularly hard). Courchevel is a big wide open valley, easy to get around, and has a huge range of levels of skiing. It is quite expensive, but probably the best starting point of these you've listed. At New Year I don't think I spent longer than about 3 minutes in any lift queue in the Courchevel valley, but maybe I was just lucky (there were some horrible queues for gondolas over in Meribel and Val Thorens though). La Tania is connected to Courchevel, a bit quieter and cheaper, with some nice chalets that can be virtually ski-in/out, but you do have essentially a single lift/piste to take to make the connection to Courchevel at the beginning end of the day, or a once an hour bus around the bottom of the hill. I've not been to La Ros or La Plagne, or pretty much anywhere in Austria so can't comment on those.

If you're going to get some early instruction prior to heading off to the mountains, try to do it at at all possible at a snow dome rather than at a dry slope. (Edit - re-reading your first post I see you're intending to go to MK, so that's OK then Wink

) I'd not skied on a dry slope until this year - as I'd been scared off by the stories of injuries sustained. While basically the same techniques do apply as on snow, it does feel very different, and I can confirm (through extensive practical research on the subject Embarassed

) that falling over on the stuff does hurt like hell - and I've had plenty of experience of falling over on snow as well for comparison purposes. Apparently there is something called "Dendix Thumb" (scars from the reattachment operations etc), which most long-timers take inordinate pleasure in showing off. I've not skied on Permasnow which is now appearing on many dry slopes (e.g. most of those run by Nike), but that is supposed to be much less prone to cause injury (although providing less grip for the skis - but that's probably not a problem for the beginner).

ise, FWIW I had exactly the same reaction as Kramer. If slikedges and Cathy Coins were wrong, it would probably have been more helpful to have brought some evidence to demonstrate their error, as you did from 11am Friday - rather than spend the previous 24hours simply sniping at them (and not answering kosciosco). Try re-reading this thread and think whether you could not have made your case better.

snow reports

pam w, would hardly call the Saisies/Crest link domain with 100 miles of marked runs an unknown! Incredibly popular with the Parisians as well. I referred to the classic destinations as including those popular with both the British and the French. Most big city French ski tourists, with the notable exception of the Marseillais, Bordelais and Toulousains, head for the Savoie/Haute Savoie.

I was thinking of much smaller French village domains, running into the hundreds, that are virtually all skiable at that time of year, beside which Les Saisies would seem to be a mega resort! Over the course of a week, by being valley-based say in Barcelonnette in the southern French Alps, you could have a wonderful skiing experience visiting 4 or 5 nearby resorts, and rarely have to queue. I know it's possible because I've done it, several times.

You know it makes sense.

You believe that most of "modern society" makes things up or repeats gossip?
Speak for yourself. I believe most people tell the truth, and therefore trust each other's word.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

ise, well, actually, that's a rather different point!

Do I hear the sound of screeching skis, in a rapid U-turn?

A snowHead

What's a different point is to talk in terms of truth, it's an ambiguous concept at best. However, in those terms, I'm simply distinguishing between information that someone believes is true and information they know is correct. I happen to prefer the latter and I also think SH has an such an abundance of the latter that we can do without the former in many cases.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Yes, but you were implying that because "our entire country" is run by a

scheming, duplicitous, war-mongering, snake oil merchant [my words]
that we are all careless with the truth too.
Well, I don't think we are.

You need to Login to know who's really who.

ise, is the difference that everyone else believes their opinion to be true, and yet you know that yours is correct?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

David Goldsmith, he's a product of his time, he appealed to the public initially because he seemed to represent the values, lifestyles and mindset that "middle England" did, the part of the country that provided a few hundred thousand extra managers for the NHS and so enthusiastically mismanages large parts of the economy.

We're way, way off topic, but, I said nothing of the sort, and I presented two positions, "distinguishing between information that someone believes is true and information they know is correct", I most certainly made no reference to "truth" or accused anyone, Tony included, of being a liar. They always think it's true Very Happy

My personal rule of thumb is that if something needs believing in there's a good chance it's not true (with apologies to organised religion of course) Very Happy

I presumed, naively, you meant you'd made a U turn rolling eyes

You'll need to Register first of course.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

kosciosco, I wouldn't expect there to be much to choose between Austria and France on the question of English spoken in ski schools and English people arund to chat to; if it's in a Uk brochure, it'll be crawling with Brits.

I've skiied in Flaine but not stayed there, it's a modern resort, and notone of the better designed ones, but the skiing should be great for you. No idea about the apres ski other than what I've read, which is that it's not notably good.

After all it is free

Ok guys time out!! .....to see who is lying and telling the truth or somewhere in the middle check this out .....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth

snowHead

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

I don't think that you can beat Austria for apres ski, although my only experience has been St Anton and Lech and Zurs.

Help!!

Advice needed

snowHeads Forum Index >>> The Piste