Flying with avalanche airbag systems

A snowHead

So this is how it ends...

I've written to the company I was told in charge of picking up the cartridge and dealing with the shipment. They have given me a quotation for that. 195€!!!

End of the story. I'm not interested anymore in getting it back.

Sad

A snowHead

Poor Polinauer - that is very unfortunate and I hope it is the exception rather than the rule.

I think you might be the victim of either: a typo about the cartridge needing to be connected to the airbag; or possibly the pyrotechnic charge in the handle was "sniffed out"? The cartridge and handle do look like pretty suspicious articles on their own, what do they look like to security staff. That's why (and I think ABS recommend this) you might reduce the chance of this happening again by wrapping the boxes up with a copy of the IATA regs and a description of the system (on ABS site) so that when the security people break into your luggage, they know what they are looking at... I also put the boxed handle and cartridge in the ABS pack (but unconnected).

Let's hope the airlines and security staff wise up.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Currently at Munich airport, just checked in. Will post further details when i have time, but they now require cylinders to be packed with the rucksacks. You can take this as carry-on, it can (and should) be disconnected, but all parts must be in the pack. This is a recent change to their procedures.

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IME, it can depend largely on who you speak to at the airline.

I'm currently researching airline policies on airbags and get an astonishing variety of answers from the airlines.

Some state the obsolete IATA regs with the 250ml, some say it's no problem at all, some say its fine as long as it meets IATA regs, some state that it's fine as long as it meets IATA regs and then state a 250ml limit but cannot confirm if that's only company policy or if they are quoting the obsolete regs. And this applies to answers from different reps within the same airlines.

In some cases, where they have stated that it's fine as long as they meet IATA regs, I've queried the limit myself at which point it becomes obvious they are reading he pre January 2013 regs and still enforce the limit.

Hopefully when I've finished, I'll have a definitive answer from all airlines I've queried and can at least put it to the management of the airlines to ensure their staff are up to date on the regs.

While I'm at it, are there any specific airlines you'd like me to check. I've got a petty comprehensive list already but I may have missed some.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

The rules at Munich seem to be airport security policy, not airline.

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More details on my Munich experience.

Firstly, a huge thanks to polinauer for the initial posting about Munich, if I hadn't read that I might not have been so lucky myself.

I have a Mammut R.A.S. with a carbon cylinder, so the airbag and the cylinder are removable - this is relevant.

I was flying with Lufthansa out of Munich T2 yesterday. I had previously informed LH of the airbag by phone and been given the all clear with no specific instructions other than to mention it at check in.

When I dropped the bags off I told the check-in person I had an "avalanche rescue backpack" and that the cylinder was in my hold luggage. Initially her response was "that's fine", she knew exactly what it was and was fully aware of the IATA regs. Because of the previous posts on here I clarified that I was OK to take the rucksack through as hand luggage without the cylinder. Not so much. She said that that "used to be OK" but there had been some "problems with security" recently and I should keep the cylinder with the airbag. She phoned her supervisor to double check. I didn't confirm but I think it would also have been OK to check the rucksack in too, the key thing was to keep the cylinder together with the pack. So, after double checking I could take it all through as hand luggage I took the cylinder and the RAS component (i.e. the actual airbag) out of my hold luggage and fitted them in the correct place in my rucksack. I left the cylinder disconnected with the safety cap on, but otherwise the system was all assembled. Bags then checked in as normal... on to security...

My hand luggage was x-rayed as usual on the way to the gate, and sure enough it was pulled over for searching. The carbon cylinder showed up very clearly on the x-ray (carbon cylinders are still lined with steel, so not a surprise). Initially the security staff were not at all happy. After I opened the main zip on the bag they started searching, I offered to show them the cylinder but they initially wouldn't let me touch the bag once it was opened. After a moment they realized they couldn't find the cylinder, so I unzipped the little pouch and pulled it out for them. Some puzzled glances but they were not particularly interested in my explanation at that point, and from the body language and firm grip it was clear they were not going to be giving me back the cylinder just yet! I pulled out the IATA regs, and at the same time the supervisor arrived. As soon as he got there it was all sorted right away, he reassured his staff that it was all fine, explained the IATA rules to them and then we all had a good look at the x-ray - he pointed out the connector and valve etc and explained to his staff how the system worked. After that it was all smiles and "have a good flight". My German wasn't good enough to catch everything, but the presence of the whole system was important, the supervisor made it clear to his staff to look for these. Had I not put the RAS component in the rucksack then I would have just been carrying a bag with a cylinder in it and might not have got through so easily. So, if you are travelling with a RAS type system I'd make sure to install it and not pack it separately.

All in all I'm pretty happy with the way it worked out, some concern is reasonable, the security staff did correctly identify a pressurized gas cylinder which is exactly what they are there for after all.

So, to summarize, security in Munich want you to keep all the components together, that way they will [hopefully] identify the whole thing correctly and let it through.

I am not sure taking it through as hand luggage is a great idea, I can imagine less helpful security staff would refuse it. I might look at packing the whole thing in my main bag next time. I would strongly advise taking copies of the IATA regs with you at all times (a German version would have helped too, not because the staff didn't speak English, more because it has the correct vocabulary so would make their phone calls to supervisors easier).

EDIT: Not sure if this has been posted before, but here is the home page for the "IATA Dangerous Goods Table 2.3A" you need, several languages available: http://www.iata.org/whatwedo/cargo/dgr/Pages/dgr-guidance.aspx

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Hi Guys sorry I have not been around much on the forum to keep an eye on this thread, but as you can guess its a little busy at the moment here at Snowshepherd.

A few points on the regulations:

The IATA regulations are for the airlines, excluding the US and Canada they have separate regulations but only for flying internally, so if your flying from Europe to the States or Canada then the IATA regs apply.

Security at airports is a different matter and they have there own strictness in terms of policy, I would not try and get through Heathrow security with an airbag and the cylinder together my bet is it will be confiscated on the spot Sad

Always carry a copy of the regulations with you and also have another copy wrapped around the cylinder in your hold luggage, usually if there is a problem then you are called to outsize luggage to explain.

recently I have been told of other airlines asking for the complete item to be pack together i.e. the cylinder and the airbag, on one occasion the customer was asked to fix the cylinder in place into the airbag??? I do not recommend that whatever you are told as the regs clearly state that the bag much not be pack as to accidentally activate, by all means as per sah, experience pack the cylinder with the cap still in place in the relevant compartment of the airbag and then put in checked in luggage.

Hope the above helps

After all it is free

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Does anyone know where I can get a datasheet for a BCA ava pack? got one for my snowpulse, but not one for the wifes BCA!

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

I have just spoken to a representative at Swiss Air - he said it was fine to travel with the pack but that the gas canisters had to be empty! Has anyone brought the compressed canisters on Swiss air in particular, or other airlines more generally?

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spandex, I emailed them when I booked, no problem so long as it meets the IATA regulations.

Email address is contactus@swiss.com

Their reply to me:

Thank you for writing to us.

We have reviewed your request for approval of bringing the avalanche bag pack on your reservation *****.

Before final approval, we need you to confirm it has the (or either one of the) following specifications:

One (1) per passenger, containing a cylinder of compressed gas in Division 2.2. It may also be equipped with a pyrotechnic trigger mechanism containing less than 200mg net of Division 1.4S. The backpack must be packed in such a manner that it cannot be accidentally activated. The airbags within the backpack must be fitted with pressure relief.

Please let us know and we will add it to your booking.

Thank you for choosing SWISS

Awesome - ill do that and bring the email and relevant regulations for the added thud factor when i check in!

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Air Canada require the the cylinder to be installed in the pack and checked-in only, no carry on allowed:

http://www.aircanada.com/en/travelinfo/airport/baggage/security.html#-avalanche_equipement

Takes up quite a bit of space in the case/bag!

A snowHead

A snowHead

sah, i thought it was bonkers too. I'm only familiar with ABS packs where the cylinder can be installed with the trigger detached from the pack but still within the same checked in bag.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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I've just heard that Thomas Cook airline (charter flight) require me to empty the cylinder. What an utter pita, especially as Flybe didn't when I flew at NY!

Does anyone know either how to empty an ABS cylinder without firing the bag (and hence using the trigger too), or somewhere that rents cylinders in Zermatt?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

flaming, I'd point them back at the IATA regs....

You'll need to Register first of course.

I've done that... But I'm not expecting much joy.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

They've pointed me to this http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=2200&pageid=14493 which seems to suggest that cylinders must be 50ml max.

After all it is free

flaming, where does it say that the cylinder must be 50ml max? It also doesn't say it has to be empty! I'd point them back at the top paragraph.

Avalanche rescue backpack containing a cylinder of compressed non-flammable non-toxic gas.

No more than one per person and may contain a pyrotechnic trigger mechanism containing not more than 200 mg net of Division 1.4S.

The backpack must be packed in such a manner that it cannot be accidentally activated and the airbags within the backpack must be fitted with pressure relief valves.

also read post 1 of this thread....

Thomas Cook
E-mailed the airline in advance regarding Gatwick-Toronto flight and Thomas Cook (charter airline, not the travel agent) said yes it was possible to fly with an ABS pack. Check-in agent confirmed with her supervisor that it was OK, but no problems with flying. (parlor, 24 November, 2009)

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Also, remember that, in the UK, the CAA has a 100ml limit on fluids AND compressed gases, so irrespecting of the IATA regs on actually flying with airbags, the security restrictions at British airports means a full canister will not be permitted through security as hand luggage.

If you have got through, it'll have been down to luck rather than policy. I clarified this position with Heathrow last week.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Panic over, they allow the canister to be full as hold luggage. Does show that it's worth clarifying in person though, as the information I received from Thomas Cook via skiworld was wrong. Can't really blame skiworld, as they just forwarded the email, but it just goes to show that even in one airline the rules are not understood or applied uniformly.

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Good idea about putting the info in with it. I'll do that.

Another few to add to the list:

GVA > LCY with Swiss - no problems. I called in advance, they knew at check-in and we didn't need to get them out or produce any paperwork.

LHR > NRT (Tokyo) with Virgin Atlantic
Called in advance, they have said no problem. Am printing the docs anyway, but we flew with them before and it was all fine, so not anticipating any issues.

NB the last time was flying to the US and I pre-ordered a US canister (different size and pressure) to be picked up in Boulder, so I only had the full pack on the way back)

Jetstar (low cost airline operated by Qantas)
NRT (Tokyo) to CTS (Sapporo)
I was a bit worried about this as it's a cheap internal Japanese flight which seems like a potential minefield for misunderstandings. Email to Jetstar produced no response for weeks and then a request to call them.

Calling them was fine - they use skype which is also a bonus. They were helpful and asked me to send all the details to this address

dgenquiries@qantas.com.au

I got written approval back for both of us within a day or so, specifying the legalities involved, and who to call if the staff need any further info. Really good. I'll update with how it goes when we get back.

Hey rob@rar, Nickski88

I'm headed to Japan in two weeks and just started exploring this huge issue which I thought would be a molehill (but is actually a mountain!). Wow, I had no idea it would be so hard to travel with an ave backpack.

So I read the posts in this thread - very helpful indeed. ButI had a couple questions:

1. Are you guys trying to travel to Japan with US spec air canisters? From what I've read, the air canisters for Japan are different and use a different canister or nozzle.
2. Are you guys carrying on the air canisters full? I was under the impression you had to fly with them empty?
3. I saw Nickski88 flew SkyMark, whcih I plan to fly from Tokyo to Asahikawa. Any update on how they handled the air canister? I was planning to get a Japan air canister for a BCA backpack upon arrival in Asahikawa, however, I'm not sure they have a supplier there so I might have to try and pick one up in Tokyo and fly with it.
4. I assume most people are using backpacks with air canisters and not nitrogen to Japan? I was under the impression that only Snowpulse and BCA have usable canisters in Japan.

You know it makes sense.

Black diamond Jetforce bags should solve all these problems by next season? Look up in utube

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

A snowHead

feef, The 100ml limit applies to aerosols (i.e. deodorants) and the IATA 2.3.A Table gives specific allowance for Avalanche pachs.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

You need to Login to know who's really who.

Wonder if the Jetforce Airbag from Black Diamond is the way to go?

http://youtube.com/v/-hwsxWaq9kQ

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

You'll need to Register first of course.

Why my cylinder always goes in the hold.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Here is one for you. Air Canada.

I have the Snowpulse Mammut Pro Protection 35L with a refillable air cylinder. I checked with the Air Canada website which stated that the canister had to be checked in with the bag attached. I called Air Canada (Indian call centre) and explained that the bag was my carry on ruck sack and would it be allowable to check the cylinder in its box with my snowboard but take the rucksack (and airbag) as carry on? In this way the bag is not energised and the system is one step less functional. The telephone assistant understood and agreed and put a note on my booking to this extent. We flew to Vancouver on the 14th and when at Heathrow I alerted the check in lady to the contents of the board bag and that I had checked before hand with Air Canada that this would be ok. The gear arrived in Vancouver and all was well.

I flew back to the UK on the 25th. I assumed that the notes on my itinerary were still there. I mentioned the canister whereabouts to the Air Canada check in assistant and then had to open the board bag at the oversize conveyor (for an explosives swab). The airport security lady was shown the canister and allowed me to lock the bag up and send it through.

We flew back to London on the 25th. When I got home I demobbed my luggage and found that a) my board bag had been opened but relocked????, b) there was no air cylinder in the bag and c) there was a note from CATSA (Canadian Air Transport Security Authority) saying that the bag had been opened and inspected and that all the contents had been put back. This was not the case.

I called CATSA immediately and they said that they would have flagged the item (XRAYED no doubt) with Air Canada who would have pulled it prior to the bag being locked up and loaded. She had no explanation as to how my bag was accessed when I had the key to the lock, why I had not been tannoyed or informed at the gate.

I was referred to Air Canada UK who then put me on to Air Canada baggage Canada and ended up talking to some guy in India. This chap did not even ask who I was and what flights we were talking about. I assumed this would be protocol in case a note had been attached regarding the extraction of goods from my bag.

He has now referred me back to CATSA.

I will be calling them again but feel that if I am sent on a telephone goose chase will cut it short and just claim from the Airline. Basically the thing has been purloined and I have a note that states that someone in the airport tampered with my bag without my authority.

I nearly asked the question at the gate but feel that if I had they would have been none the wiser as it seems that Air Canada dabbled with baggage without feeling the need to follow a protocol involving the owner. There must be some message to travellers here.

The moral of the story is that there are still huge discrepancies in the way this equipment is handled at airports. It does probably pay to ask too many questions at all stages from pre check in to boarding.

At the moment I am £££ out and not sure if they will send me back my canister.

After all it is free

Back to my Air Canada issue. It seems that the whole thing was handled completely incorrectly despite what the regulations say. CASTA informed me that as far as they are concerned the compressed air cylinder was not a problem for them. They were just pointing it out and Air Canada removed it. A friend of mine was passing through the airport a few days later and once checked in chase the item up with Air Canada. He spoke to a man who said he knew about it and fetched the cylinder. he brought up my cylinder which was in the original box and also a Butane cylinder. He asked my friend "which one is it" to which the response was " It isn't the butane one as that is flammable and the box says 'Avalanche Cylinder' on it so it kind of gives the game away". It is clear that the airline employees are not versed in the carriage of this gear. When I followed this up I was passed from pillar to post. I ended up getting back in touch with CASTA who ended up taking ownership and getting another bloke from Air Canada to attend to my request for contact on the issue. He sent me their regulations which stated that the cylinder if carried alone should be empty (no use to me in that state) or attached to the bag (one step nearer to being armed). He agreed with my logic (in parentheses). He also agreed that the outsourced and also airport staff should be up to date on the regs and that the issue had been handled poorly at the airport. He understands that avalanche air bags are becoming more commonplace and is intending to push for a review of Air Canada's policy.

In the end he will send my charged cylinder back to me via Fedex in a hazardous goods shipment. I assume at their expense.

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Update on above. I have received my cylinder from Air Canada. They Fedexed it back to me. It took a lot of phoning, e-mailing and hassle. I guess due to the fact that they had misinformed me in the first place as to the conditions of carriage and also not let me know prior to departure that they had removed the item put me on the moral high ground. I feel that if I did not have these factors in my favour I may have been left holding the baby on this one. Hopefully next time I will get it done sympathetically with the airline and avoid such a palaver Very Happy

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Flying with avalanche airbag systems

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