 Poster: A snowHead
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Was looking to buy some pants, but couldn't see the sense of paying extra for Gore-Tex. What's the use in the snow where it hardly ever rains
Am I missing a trick here?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I've just upgraded to gore-tex and been skiing in powder most the week. Where as with my previous pants I would have got damp the news ones keep me perfectly dry from the outside and seem very breathable. Keep in mind even in sub zero temps with snow on your outside your body heat will melt some of the snow, as will heated chairlifts and walkking into heated huts for a coffee etc, so it's not just about rain. Also pay attention to the zips, make sure they look waterproof, I've seen many pants that claim waterproof material bit the zips look far from waterproof. I'm sure there are other materials out there that match gore-tex, I've some rab trousers that seem very good, but personally I've always found gore-text pants and jackets very good so worth a little extra.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Goretex and the other highly waterproof fabrics make a big difference in sleety snow or the occasional times when it does rain. However, if you'd skip skiing in bad weather like that you don't need to pay the premium for those kinds of fabrics. On a couple of occasions this season I've skied in wet weather and I've been glad I had Goretex.
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OP Yes
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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matt23, I've had a couple of ski trips where it has rained a lot. But like Rob says, if you are going to avoid skiing on those days then don't waste your money. Those trips were enough for me to buy Goretex and very pleased with it too 
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The big advantage of Goretex over any other no-name-brand waterproof fabric is its breathability. If you're being very active and sweating, you want a super breathable fabric over the top or you'll get condensation underneath. I've used goretex and eVent hard shells for several years now, and upgrading from cheaper fabrics was totally worth it, when buying jackets at least. My legs don't get as hot, and sweat a lot less, and so I've never bothered with fancy fabrics for my trousers. And that's for hiking trousers when rain is almost always likely!
The own-brand shell fabrics by TNF, Patagonia, Haglofs, whoever, will be noticably cheaper than goretex, better than no-name-brand and still more than good enough for skiing where you're unlikely to be slogging through a torrential downpour in a gale for a couple of hours.
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as well as all the above Goretex comes with a lifetime guarantee, so provided your kit hasn't been abused, they will replace it if it leaks! I've done this with a pair of walking boots, which were replaced after 3 years.
I do believe eVent claim to be more breathable than Goretex....
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| kitenski wrote: |
| I do believe eVent claim to be more breathable than Goretex.... |
eVent is better than most of the older flavours of goretex (eg, Pro Shell ); newer ones like Active Shell are as good as eVent (if a lot more expensive). Lots of other nice alternatives these days too, like neoshell. But unless you're burning a lot of calories or you are overdressed or just naturally a hot and sweaty person, you just won't notice. Hiking up a mountain? Yes, it will matter. Skiing down the other side? Not a whole lot.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Thanks for the advice guys. Good points made. Can see the sense of having Gore-Tex in the snow
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I must admit on a warmer day I've seen chair lifts with damp seats too - another good reason for fairly waterproof trousers I think.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| I must admit on a warmer day I've seen chair lifts with damp seats too - another good reason for fairly waterproof trousers I think. |
Sure, but that doesn't imply 'goretex'. A pair of cheap trews for snowboarders would suffice, for example, or a cheap pair of unbranded waterproof overtrousers. Everyone makes adequate membrane waterproofs these days.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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+1 for Gore-Tex pants, upgraded from insulated North Face Hyvent to Arc'teryx gore pro-shell pants and they're awesome.
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glp9, waynos, which pants make Gortex pants did you go for Make / Model
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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waynos, error with link
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Poster: A snowHead
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Arc'teryx Sidewinder SV, bought them at the Arc'teryx factory shop in North Vancouver. Definitely couldn't afford them over here!!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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1969jma, hmm, had to escape the single quote in the url with %39, should work now
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You can hike up a mountain to ski down, that's when the breathable stuff comes into its own. You need the waterproofness if you ski in the rain on the
Assumption it's dumping higher up !!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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glp9, have the same trousers and they are really really good , worth every penny imo
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I have Norrona Lofoten trousers.
They are great. I wear Aldi 3/4 bases underneath and HH base top under a Mountain Hardware Jacket.
I think the thing about Gtex is that you must work up a gradient ot reach max breathability. I find my insulated Mountain |Hardware jacket (and even my old Paramo) to be more comfortable
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| Serriadh wrote: |
eVent is better than most of the older flavours of goretex (eg, Pro Shell ) |
Goretex Pro-shell old? I don't think so. Are you sure you don't mean XCR?
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[quote="uktrailmonster"]
| Serriadh wrote: |
Goretex Pro-shell old? I don't think so. Are you sure you don't mean XCR? |
Brought to market in 2006. Old and busted. As opposed to Active Shell, brought to market in 2010. New hotness.
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[quote="Serriadh"]
| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| Serriadh wrote: |
Goretex Pro-shell old? I don't think so. Are you sure you don't mean XCR? |
Brought to market in 2006. Old and busted. As opposed to Active Shell, brought to market in 2010. New hotness. |
I was under the impression that Pro-Shell was still their flagship product and didn't realise 2006 was 'old'? Gore-Tex website and virtually all top-range ski/mountaineering jackets still seem to feature Pro-Shell today. I see Active-Shell is mentioned on the website, but seems to be aimed at more energetic use like cross country skiing or ski touring i.e. lighter and more breathable. Doesn't seem to be much of it around to be honest.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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[quote="uktrailmonster"]
| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| I was under the impression that Pro-Shell was still their flagship product and didn't realise 2006 was 'old'? Gore-Tex website and virtually all top-range ski/mountaineering jackets still seem to feature Pro-Shell today. I see Active-Shell is mentioned on the website, but seems to be aimed at more energetic use like cross country skiing or ski touring i.e. lighter and more breathable. Doesn't seem to be much of it around to be honest. |
If you read my original post,
| Serriadh wrote: |
| eVent is better than most of the older flavours of goretex (eg, Pro Shell ); newer ones like Active Shell are as good as eVent |
You'll note I used the relative terms 'older and newer'. I don't dispute that pro-shell is their flagship product and I have indeed noticed that everyone's top end hard shells all use it. Activeshell is a newer product and its use is much more tightly controlled by Gore to ensure that garment manufacturers don't do silly things to make their new wonder fabric seem less good than it really is (eg, multiple layers of fabric resulting from too many pockets) and they also have a restricted number of manufacturers to whom they'll provide the fabric in the first place.
This is all irrelevant though: I simply pointed out that eVent is more breathable than Pro Shell, and comparable to Active Shell.
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uktrailmonster, i'm not feeling any strong need to get rid of my pro-shell stuff just now. active shell looks like something which would compete more with soft shell fabrics to me
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Serriadh, I'm sure there are several materials that are ultimately more breathable than Gore-Tex Pro-Shell (Gore-Tex Soft-Shell for a start), but it doesn't mean they are 'better'. They just have different strengths and weaknesses. For me Pro-Shell is still the best choice for alpine skiing and most equipment manufacturers seem to concour. I've no idea how it compares with eVent, but you made it sound like eVent is a superior product which surprises me considering the brands who use 'older' Gore-Tex.
Arno, From reading the Gore-Tex website, that was my take too. It sounds like a very lightweight product with a focus on breathability, which is great. But how does it compare with Pro-Shell in durability? Is it a better choice for alpine skiing? From what is available on the market, you wouldn't think so.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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uktrailmonster, eVent has a reputation for being more breathable than goretex when the outer fabric is wet
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I spent New Year in St Anton and it rained low down nearly every day. My Goretex trousers were great; my non-Goretex jacket leaked.
I am looking for a *proper* mountain jacket, with proper storm flaps, made from proper material. So much for all those on here who posted - in an earlier thread I had on jackets - that waterproofness was irrelevant when skiing unless in Scotland.
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You know it makes sense.
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| Serriadh, I'm sure there are several materials that are ultimately more breathable than Gore-Tex Pro-Shell (Gore-Tex Soft-Shell for a start), but it doesn't mean they are 'better'. |
To put my comment into context:
| Serriadh wrote: |
| kitenski wrote: |
| I do believe eVent claim to be more breathable than Goretex.... |
eVent is better than most of the older flavours of goretex |
Hence, my statement was intended to convey that eVent is better than goretex in the context of kitenski's post, eg when it comes to breathability.
| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| For me Pro-Shell is still the best choice for alpine skiing and most equipment manufacturers seem to concour. I've no idea how it compares with eVent, but you made it sound like eVent is a superior product which surprises me considering the brands who use 'older' Gore-Tex. |
It is superior in terms of breathability, which was all the comment was about. Not one other feature of a waterproof fabric was mentioned, and no other merits were claimed. I'm sorry if 'better' in the context of breathability was taken to be a blanket statement; it was not intended to be so. I won't get into a discussion about marketing, but as you can tell by the title of this very thread, when people think 'good waterproof fabric', they will think 'gore-tex'. That is a major factor for its popularity with manufacturers.
As for Alpine skiing, I'll repeat wheat I've already said which is that gore-tex of any colour or flavour is not essential, but mostly a feature of branding, marketing and purchaser's wallet sizes. Ski-touring, hiking, climbing, mountaineering, cycling... these are all places where you need excellent breathability. I posit that 'alpine' skiing in its most common meaning, lift-served pisted downhill, does not need the very best in breathable waterproofing, and to pay a non-trivial premium for it is quite unnecessary. Even what might be called 'third tier' fabrics, the cheap no-name-brand materials that are ranked behind the big names (goretex and event) and behind the own-brand fabrics used by major garment manufacturers (hyvent, h2no, proof) are quite adequate.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Goretex is a membrame and is probably no more durable than a Tesco plastic bag. What makes the jacket more or less durable are are the other materials used in the jacket construction. As I understand it "Pro Shell" refers to a type of material construction that includes a goretex membrane.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| James the Last wrote: |
I spent New Year in St Anton and it rained low down nearly every day. My Goretex trousers were great; my non-Goretex jacket leaked.
I am looking for a *proper* mountain jacket, with proper storm flaps, made from proper material. So much for all those on here who posted - in an earlier thread I had on jackets - that waterproofness was irrelevant when skiing unless in Scotland. |
I was also in St Anton & numerous other Austrian resorts where it rained in Dec 2011 and Jan 2012. My Event jacket also kept me dry.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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James the Last, do get over this storm flap stuff. i sat on slow lift in heavy rain/sleet in December. the outer fabric of my trousers was completely wetted out (time to re-do the DWR but I digress) - the waterproof zips on both my trousers and jacket performed flawlessly
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Arno wrote: |
| James the Last, do get over this storm flap stuff. i sat on slow lift in heavy rain/sleet in December. the outer fabric of my trousers was completely wetted out (time to re-do the DWR but I digress) - the waterproof zips on both my trousers and jacket performed flawlessly |
+1
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| matt23 wrote: |
Was looking to buy some pants, but couldn't see the sense of paying extra for Gore-Tex. What's the use in the snow where it hardly ever rains
Am I missing a trick here? |
It may 'hardly-ever' rain - but it can be very unpleasant if it does and you are not wearing goretex or similar.
Good salopettes last for an awfully long time unless you are a fashion slave - so the cost becomes not that significant per skiing week.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| James the Last wrote: |
I spent New Year in St Anton and it rained low down nearly every day. My Goretex trousers were great; my non-Goretex jacket leaked.
I am looking for a *proper* mountain jacket, with proper storm flaps, made from proper material. So much for all those on here who posted - in an earlier thread I had on jackets - that waterproofness was irrelevant when skiing unless in Scotland. |
Just FYI I went with the ME Kamchatka in the end and it's ace. Sadly no storm flap but the waterproof zippers do keep the wind/weather out better than the ones on my older soft-shell.
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