 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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All adults are basically responsible for all children. If you see a kid about to dash into a road with a bus coming, you would grab them. Except that you'd then go to jail for touching a child. So things have got a bit messed up in that regard. But anyway.
The chairlift thing is different. It's not the same as just randomly happening to see a kid in trouble and helping them, it's being told "you are responsible for this person for the next ten minutes". It's "responsibility rape".
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| advanceddiver wrote: |
We were in La Plagne last year, when we got a small French boy with us (Est 4/5 years old). We were mid way though the length of the lift when my wife screamed the boy is falling off!.
As I was talking to her, I had not noticed that he was indeed sliding off the chair. I grabbed him by the top of his coat and dragged him back onto the seat. Without any doubt, had my wife not noticed him sliding off he would have fallen out of the chair. At this point the lift was at one of its highest points and was passing over a car park and a hotel at floor 6. Had he have fallen he would have been a goner!
From that moment on, we became very careful every time we had a child put with us.
Again, we also was asking the question, what would have happened if...... |
Jesus wept 
I was in Bellecote last year - my 4 year old little boy went to the ESF school there... he did really well and we were really proud. Then on the Thursday the instructor told us to get him a lift pass because "ee iz good, we go up"
Didn't sleep all night, decided to take the advice of a large turtle from finding nemo, "let the little dude swim"
We spoke to the instructor and he promised to stay with him on the lift...... (only after he said "we dont drop many").
Still stalked his group from a distance and he was fine and the instructor did stay with him.
However, I have decided that the La Plagne bunch are far too laid back with taking little ones on chair lifts and we've bugged out of france till he's bigger.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| adie wrote: |
| You have to be some sort of miserable git who doesn't want to help out a young kid on a chair lift. |
That's not the point, at all.
Going to a museum and a staff member suddenly going "here hold this priceless Ming vase, try not to break it." and then running away, is like a scene off Beadle's About.
And that's exactly what happens when a child gets plonked next to you on a chairlift.
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Mr Technique, absolutely. I'll do it when asked, cos I'm nice like that, but it scares the bejesus out of me. Last year in Tignes when I was handed the responsibility, my mate next to me (who has a couple of his own) grabbed my poles and bag and said "you just concentrate on the kid". Luckily she was good as gold, but I held the back of her jacket all the way up just in case, and got a grateful "meci" from the ESF woman at the top.
Bit of non-story that one tbh, but one I think worth telling all the same.
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When I'm asked to take kids, I ahve developed a neat trick/habit of sitting with my ski poles horizontally so they are pushing said kid back into the seat, acting as another safety bar. Seems to work ok
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| Mr Technique wrote: |
| adie wrote: |
| You have to be some sort of miserable git who doesn't want to help out a young kid on a chair lift. |
That's not the point, at all.
Going to a museum and a staff member suddenly going "here hold this priceless Ming vase, try not to break it." and then running away, is like a scene off Beadle's About.
And that's exactly what happens when a child gets plonked next to you on a chairlift. |
Its crazy really, I think ski schools really are chancing their arm without properly considering how to mitigate the risks correctly. In Serre Che (out of Villeneuve) small kids go up in a gondola and then use tow lifts..... In Plagne Bellecote - they ignore the gondola and use a very, very high chairlift.
Plagne Bellecote have a potential safer route and ignore it..... very dodgy IMO.
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Well I guess it's true that they don't drop many - kids are at much greater risk being driven all night at 85 mph down an autoroute by a tired father who hasn't slept since finishing work on Friday afternoon.
fortunately there are enough adults willing to help - or it would be very difficult for kids to have ski school. It's easy to greatly exagerate the dangers - one minute people are moaning about the modern tendency to wrap kids in cotton wool, the next moment they're tut-tutting about the appalling dangers faced hour by hour by tiny tots in well-run ski resorts with well-maintained lifts. 
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Monium,
I think Kogler criticised them for refusing to answer questions about how the bar was lifted. "How can someone see a child fall from a ski-lift, then simply want to go off skiing to get their money's worth from their lift pass?"
And I agree, in a situation like that - or when investigating any kind of accident - it is the responsibility of any witness to give as much information as possible. Failing that, they should give their contact details.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| pam w wrote: |
Well I guess it's true that they don't drop many - kids are at much greater risk being driven all night at 85 mph down an autoroute by a tired father who hasn't slept since finishing work on Friday afternoon.
fortunately there are enough adults willing to help - or it would be very difficult for kids to have ski school. It's easy to greatly exagerate the dangers - one minute people are moaning about the modern tendency to wrap kids in cotton wool, the next moment they're tut-tutting about the appalling dangers faced hour by hour by tiny tots in well-run ski resorts with well-maintained lifts. |
Not two words I would always put together.
I felt La Plagne Bellecote are fortunately appearing to be well run.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
being driven all night at 85 mph down an autoroute by a tired father
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What a wuss - you can go much faster than that during the night
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Have the magnetic seat thingies taken off in many resorts? I remember seeing a couple in Courchevel/Meribel last year. Seems to be a very good idea.
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You know it makes sense.
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Never had a child on the chair lift with me, must be something to do with the fact I spend the majority of my time on the slopes on a board rather than skis 
Having said that, I'd be a bit wary about being left with a child on a lift, especially with some of the younger ones.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Monium wrote: |
| ....... I imagine they'd have a lot of trouble tracing a sexual predator that has just spent 20 minutes on a chair abusing a child.... |
I also imagine that they would have boggled minds trying to imagine sexual abuse of a child in full ski kit on a lift chair. My guess is that their records would show a zero for such incidents.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I don't mind looking after kids on lifts - it's only a short ride and gives me a chance to practice my French with an uncritical audience. I've had a friend in her late 40s be more danger to be honest.
What does bother me is that I never get some fit girl in her late teens early 20s squeezing up to me on a lift, preferably with two of her friends. Never happens, I tell you. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| achilles wrote: |
| Monium wrote: |
| ....... I imagine they'd have a lot of trouble tracing a sexual predator that has just spent 20 minutes on a chair abusing a child.... |
I also imagine that they would have boggled minds trying to imagine sexual abuse of a child in full ski kit on a lift chair. My guess is that their records would show a zero for such incidents. |
It's more the principle of being left in charge of a child I didnt want, didn't sign up for at breakfast that morning, and the instructor not know who I am from Adam. I could be literally anyone - there seems to be an understanding that the people in ski resorts are "good people" - unfortunately not everyone is a good person who does the right thing.
I'm not sure, as a parent, that I would be happy letting my kids jump on to a chair lift with a complete unknown adult, who may or may not give a toss about their safety and wellbeing. As Mr T has noted, surely to be left alone with a child on a chairlift I'd need to be CRB checked - after all, I could be literally anyone, and it seems a ripe opportunity for inappropriate behaviour - after all, where are they going to run off to?
I also wouldn't want to be the instructor that explains to the parents what has happened to a child in my care if there were an incident - be that inappropriate behaviour by adults, falling from a lift or something else. There's a low risk alternative, so use it. If the resort doesn't have button or T bars that the kids can use then perhaps ski schools need to be exercising more pressure on resorts to have more runs designed for this. Personally I'd be really happy if there were 3 or 4 pistes that were reserved only for beginners and children in ski school, not just a convenient green or blue that intermediate and advanced skiers with tired legs can hammer through to get back to accommodation at the end of the day.
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Here is my tip to avoid having kids next to you on the chair lift.
1) Stand in queue grinning stupidly at all the kids
2) As you shuffle forwards get out a bag of Wurthers Origionals ( this IS the sweet of choice )
3) Say very loudly to the nearest child " Doofus would like to know if you want a sweetie "
4) Observe space being created as you get next lift to yourself 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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These are good once you can get a bib that fits. Dou Lanches coming up from the the gondola out of La Tania has them, but does go over some quite significant drops and when we were on it last year with the other half's 5 y/o daughter (we were slalking the group slightly as Mattmulkeen did too and managed to get her on our lift as the "responsible adults"!) the bib certainly stuck well but she did seem to be sliding a bit. I would imagine this year she'll be big enough for this not to happen though...
There is a kn0b crusher on the 6 man out of vallandry too; I try to avoid the right-side chair!
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| andyph wrote: |
What does bother me is that I never get some fit girl in her late teens early 20s squeezing up to me on a lift, preferably with two of her friends. Never happens, I tell you. |
Just join the kids group at ski school, put on one of those high viz bibs, and get an instructor to force you onto them (not like that) when the chance arises. They will, inevitably, ask why you are in kids ski school, that's where you can explain to them that you work with disadvantaged children because you just love giving something back, and wear the bib so that they don't think they look stupid. If you've not got tonsil tennis by the top of the lift you really must work on your French some more.
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| Quote: |
surely to be left alone with a child on a chairlift I'd need to be CRB checked
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No - most of Europe still has common sense
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perhaps ski schools need to be exercising more pressure on resorts to have more runs designed for this.
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Designed for what - my kids are off doing all sorts of stuff I don't have the nerve or skill to do, the terrain just isn't suited to a drag lift.
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I'm not sure, as a parent, that I would be happy letting my kids jump on to a chair lift with a complete unknown adult,
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Fine - ski with them yourself until they are old enough to use chairlifts on their own. After all parents are far better ski instructors than actual ski instructors and letting children have any freedom is vastly over-rated
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Kel, Rule 2 is a non starter as the Liftie at either end needs to lift them on and off the chair, so they need to be on the outside.
As for Rule 1 - the UK is the nanny state, mainland Europe etc still uses common sense
You are quite entitled to say No, Non, Nein whatever and travel on without child
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| pam w wrote: |
Well I guess it's true that they don't drop many - kids are at much greater risk being driven all night at 85 mph down an autoroute by a tired father who hasn't slept since finishing work on Friday afternoon.
fortunately there are enough adults willing to help - or it would be very difficult for kids to have ski school. It's easy to greatly exagerate the dangers - one minute people are moaning about the modern tendency to wrap kids in cotton wool, the next moment they're tut-tutting about the appalling dangers faced hour by hour by tiny tots in well-run ski resorts with well-maintained lifts. |
Spot on Pam (again)
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If the little darlings won't lift their legs off the footrests then just jab 'em in the side of the knee with your ski pole (try to get behind and under the kneecap). works a treat 
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You know it makes sense.
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| Boredsurfing wrote: |
This season in La Plagne the instructors are making an effort to actually ask, (one said would you like my child ) if you would take a child rather than assuming as they have done previously.
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This is the important bit. If someone asks, I can say yes or no. If they just push them forwards (as many instructors do after you've gone through the gate) then I have little choice. I hate it when they do that, because at that point, with a chair coming towards us, I have just been handed responsibility that I not only didn't ask for, I am in very little position to refuse. If they ask, and I am ok with it (i.e. the child is a sensible size in my opinion) I might say yes. Otherwise I like having the opportunity to tell them that I'm not comfortable with it. If nothing else, it also gives less confident adult skiers the chance to explain that they are still learning themselves, and may be a hazard to the child when they get off the lift at the other end.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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My friend, herself a nervous skier not fond of chairlifts , was given 2 children aged around 5, to take up on the chairlift with her - not given a choice as the instructor then jumped in front of her, and took the next chair with a couple of kids. She couldn't leave the children so, with the help of the lifty who had seen the situation, got both of them onto the chair.
The children didn't speak any English and one of them cried the entire way up, with the other fidgeting and moving about. My friend was becoming more and more worried as they approached the end as, the crying the child in particular, was beyond communicating with. Friend waited as long as she dare before lifting the bar, for fear of one or both of them falling, and then found that the crier wouldn't lift his skis. Frantic calling to the lifty finally got him out of the hut and between them, they got both children off. One did fall backwards on the slope off the chair, and bumped his head, but luckily was wearing a helmet. Lots more crying and distress all round.
My friend was very upset by the incident and would never again want to be put in that position. She'd rather be thought of as unpleasant and unhelpful (which is very far from the truth) than relive the experience.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Fri 7-01-11 18:47; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Boris wrote: |
Kel, Rule 2 is a non starter as the Liftie at either end needs to lift them on and off the chair, so they need to be on the outside.
As for Rule 1 - the UK is the nanny state, mainland Europe etc still uses common sense
You are quite entitled to say No, Non, Nein whatever and travel on without child |
Its what I have always done and cannot remember ever getting stopped 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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adie wrote:
You have to be some sort of miserable git who doesn't want to help out a young kid on a chair lift.
That's not the point, at all.
Going to a museum and a staff member suddenly going "here hold this priceless Ming vase, try not to break it." and then running away, is like a scene off Beadle's About.
And that's exactly what happens when a child gets plonked next to you on a chairlift.
Ignoring the fact that the vase is an inamate object that is intrinsically worth nothing (despite what some idiot maybe prepard to pay for it), so bears no comparison whatsoever with a kid. What is everyone so worried about, when did we turn into such a bunch of miserable pussy's, worried about everything and not wanting to help out our fellow man/child.
Out of interest when did the last young child die, or get seriously injured on a chair lift in Europe, am guessing the odds are probably in the many millions to one against. Now and then you end with a young kid on a chair lift its part of skiing big deal. If you dont like it buy your self a touring setup and don't use the lifts, because their not going to stop putting kids on chair lifts anytime soon, thankfully.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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gilo, calm down dear, it's only an internet message board.
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I always try and help, but I have a 10 and a 7 year old and so hope when they are on their lessons there is someone there like me.
Best story my kids gave me was on one of the gondolas going up from Les Menuires, where there are different stations to get out. Instructor was in the back gondola (cabin thing) as he watched one of his charge get out early and then wave as he went past.
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I have seen a kid fall off a chair lift in the PDS. Stood in the queue for the chair. Lift stopped suddenly, kid was hanging from the chair held on for by someone else. Liftie comes running with ladder, tries to climb up but as doing so kid falls 6 - 9 ft into snow, everyone gulps big style, kid escorted to lift station, lift starts, next time round saw same kid getting back on lift, bit tearful but OK. Made my heart really stop - quite frightening at the time as a dad of a small child the same size who does ski with me.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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My youngest child occasionally gets taken on chair lift by adults other than coaches in her ski club (their rule is kids 6 or under need an adult). I am always grateful for this (albeit absently). Last year we sometimes followed the group and got on with her, but not always. I think people are talking this way too seriously and should chill. You are adults, you can say no, but just becuase you feel that way doesn't mean everyone else does.
Monium, wondered if you are actually a parent?
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I'm not sure, as a parent, that I would be happy letting my kids jump on to a chair lift with a complete unknown adult, who may or may not give a toss about their safety and wellbeing. As Mr T has noted, surely to be left alone with a child on a chairlift I'd need to be CRB checked - after all, I could be literally anyone, and it seems a ripe opportunity for inappropriate behaviour - after all, where are they going to run off to?
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This implies that its all very simple and you would take no risks anywhere. Life has risks, everytime you get in the car with your child there is a large risk involved. Absenting your child from any risky behavior is not the way forward for a healthy life and indeed cossseting children from risks may mean that when older they are unable to apprieciate and manage their own risk sensibly , which is arguably more dangerous and adds up to overall increased risk. Your argument is like saying that children should never play in other people's houses. Yes there is a risk at other people's houses, but unless they get to do things liek that they will never develop normally
Agree with pam w and aide on this...............
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Man up and shoulder your responsibilties
Twenty years ago, in my late twenties, I moved to work in a small village. Walking aroud the village with a 40 something colleague, we saw some children messing around. He stopped and told them off, in a reponsible adult way, and we all carried on with our business. I still live near the village, but put in a similar situation today, I doubt if I would do the same, and I suspect most middle aged Brisith men would agree. I suggest that the village is worse off for that. They are not so stupid on the continent.
In a civilized society, all adults have a responsibilty for all children. On the continent, they still recognize that. The day that stops being true, we will all be the poorer for it.
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