 Poster: A snowHead
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ed123,
good that make me happy :snowheads are so nice.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I must admit I tend to think that they may as well choose me to put a kid on with me than with someone that isn't prepared to keep a whether eye on them, and I'd always want someone to do the right thing by my kids so why shouldn't I do the same for others, but I must admit I am very 'aware' of the responsibility I have been handed. It is a symptom of todays culture that this is the case and also that I am in any way concerned about where I stand re: the situation, but I am. That said, whilst not seeking the responsibility I would not turn it down and would attempt to provide what I could to assist if required during the trip. However, I don't know if I am happy enough with leaving a chair myself yet to actually assist anyone else - including my own pair!!  Another good reason for leaving said child to their own devices at that point IMV.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Just to cut a swathe through what has become a rather muddled argument, a summary of my stance.
All adults have a responsibility to help all children.
If I am on a lift with kids I look out for them as best I can (and other grown ups for that matter).
I have no hangups about TOUCHING CHILDREN and think that the modern fear adults have of youngsters is a tabloid fuelled nonsense. Touching children is nice. I love touching children.
However.
Having someone else's child plonked onto a chair next you, placing you effectively as his or her sole custodian and guardian, albeit transiently, when you are mentally unprepared, have not consented, and have no right to reply, is utterly and totally out of order on the part of the instructor who has put you in that shackled position of responsibility.
It's nothing to do with being 'miserable' and nothing to do with pervs.
My Ming vase/Beadle analogy is perfect, and I stand by its exact wording.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Mr Technique, +1 (apart from the fact that I am perfectly capable of stepping back and saying No to stop them doing the plonking)
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| jtr wrote: |
| (Quite) a few years ago, I was on a "boys" trip in Verbier, having the usual let's see what we can do type of morning when the weather changed dramatically for the worse with plunging temperatures, next to no visibility and a rising wind. We all realised that this wasn't funny and headed for a chairlift to get us on to the quickest/safest way home. At the bottom of the lift we met a huddle of kids and a ski instructor keeping them herded a bit like penguins. She asked each of us to take one of the kids up on the chair and to shield them from the cold and wind. She also made it absolutely clear that this was not a request but was an instruction that was not negotiable. Nobody had a problem with this; we all realised that getting off the slopes was a priority and thought the instructor was absolutely doing the right thing. I can't imagine why anyone would refuse such a request in these circumstances. |
In that situation, I'd have done exactly the same thing, as hopefully anyone competent and able to use the lift would. There was an unavoidable need for members of the general public to assist in the interests of safety, and you were asked to help. You had the option of saying no.
That is a very different situation to an instructor who has foisted a group of kids on unwary holidaymakers without their consent.
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| holidayloverxx wrote: |
| Mr Technique, +1 (apart from the fact that I am perfectly capable of stepping back and saying No to stop them doing the plonking) |
Not always possible - you go through the gate and are then in the path of the oncoming chair. From the separate ski school lane, kids get fed in alongside you. Too late by then. That's the situation that pulls my chain.
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| holidayloverxx wrote: |
| I am perfectly capable of stepping back and saying No to stop them doing the plonking |
Exactly, and there's no problem with doing that. It's fairly obvious that an instructor is looking to place children with adults as they board the chair (the line of kids with their instructor at the front placing kids on the chairlift is a bit of a clue). If you don't want to ride with one of his kids just say no.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Monium, I agree, and I tend to think that it is one of a number of situations where, like a member of the piste patrol, I would defer to an instruction/request of a ski instructor as I tend to think that they have a similar position of responsibility in situations of safety.
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| Monium wrote: |
| Not always possible - you go through the gate and are then in the path of the oncoming chair. From the separate ski school lane, kids get fed in alongside you. Too late by then. That's the situation that pulls my chain. |
Catch the instructor's eye and say no. Or stand in the lane that the kid would be to make sure they don't try to place a kid there.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Monium, depending on the geography of the chair, you could usually manage to be on the other end of the chair from the small children. On our lifts, they are invariably fed in from the left hand side - so all you have to do is avoid getting into the second from the left gate. Obviously not possible if it's a two-man chair, but the only remaining two man chair in our area is a vicious old one you have to leap off the top of to avoid getting socked as the chair is whisked round the wheel. It's a red run, too, so they don't take the littlies down there.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I often get asked to take kids up on the lifts in Crest-Voland, the instructors do know me so they are not just asking a random stranger.
The youngest I ever had to look after was a 3yo in Val d'Isere, she was a local though and was skiing on her own but wasn't tall enough to get on or off the lift by herself.
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rjs, If that was the case then I would argue that the 3 yr old shouldn't have been riding a chair lift in the first place.
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You know it makes sense.
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Clearly instructors are way more aggressive in this in Europe than in Canada. You would always get asked here and in fact the groups are much smaller so it amounts to relatively few children.
My just 6 yr old can ride the chair herself no problem and cope with her poles and get on and off by herself, last year she didn't have poles so that wasn't an issue. She needs to have an adult on her chair to operate the safety bar and in case of some kind of emergency where she is not capable of using her own judgement. Most of the chairs are quads and I don't think its too much impostion to ride with the kids. That said I think it is only polite to ask and to allow people to refuse.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| rjs wrote: |
The youngest I ever had to look after was a 3yo in Val d'Isere, she was a local though and was skiing on her own |
WTF? Seriously? A 3 year old child left to ski alone? I think we have now found the other end of the scale in terms of protective parenting 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
A 3 year old child left to ski alone?
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That does sound really bizarre. Maybe she was Running Away from Home?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Monium wrote: |
| Not always possible - you go through the gate and are then in the path of the oncoming chair. From the separate ski school lane, kids get fed in alongside you. Too late by then. That's the situation that pulls my chain. |
Catch the instructor's eye and say no. Or stand in the lane that the kid would be to make sure they don't try to place a kid there. |
I've been round the corner and over the net before I even know what's happened, while the bright orange oompa loompa tanned ESF sultana is already loading another one onto the unsuspecting lap of the punter in the carriage behind me.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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When you stick your kid in ski school, I assume you have to sign a parental consent form of some sort. You certainly do with a babysitter. I wonder if there's a clause that says "we reservee ze right to, ow you say, leave your kidz wiz any old fuckeur we happen to notice getting on to ze chairlift if it suits uz" or whether it somehow incorrectly implies that the instructor will actually be looking after your children for all that money you're giving them.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Unless it's in Austria in which case that clause would be more like.
"Ve reserve ze right to SIEG HEIL leave your kinder mit any old fikker we MEIN FUHRER happen to notice etc I can't even be bothered to finish this lazy attempt at a gag."
Something like that.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Mr Technique, I'm a bit confused now, is it leaving kids to ride "alone" you object to, or having them foisted on to you?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Mr Technique, call that a gag  I find it insulting
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Interesting thread - as a parent, I wouldn't give having a child "plonked" alongside me a second thought allthough of course it would be nice to be asked. But perhaps the inference here is that if the instructors are not asking first, then they are not suggesting you take any responsibility for the child? Of course I would oversee any child as I would hope fellow skiers would mine when they ski.
For me the most valuable thing out of this thread is realising the need to talk to my children about how to behave/what to do on a chair lift in the event they too are "plonkied" on one when they go to ski school in Feb for the first time .. . I hadn't given it a second thought until now so a big thanks to the OP 
tor
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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tor, Your last point is important - it is something I did a long time ago with my kids who are now competent enough to cope now anyway, but I can't see it does any harm to do so, and especially to prepare very young kids that they might be asked to ride on a lift with someone that they don't know and who might not speak their language (which could be very off-putting for the rather young who might not be expecting it). Explain that the bar will be put down and lifted by one of the adults and they must co-operate at each end of the ride. Also explain that the bar might be lifted and put down when their family might do so and that they must sit back against their seat and not lean forward until getting off when the bar is lifted. It could also be a good idea to explain that they must hold on tightly to their poles for the duration. It might also be worth pointing out how dangerous a chair could be if not ridden with due care and attention, but temper that with how safe it is if the child rides it properly and cooperates with the lifty and the people on the chair with them. The same might be true if they ever end up on a Tbar with someone else too, but all the time my kids rode them in ski school they went in ski-school pairs with the instructor riding with any odd one in the group so perhaps it is not so much of a problem with those sorts of lifts.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| and who might not speak their language |
When I last took a child up a lift, the liftie was shouting out the language of each child in the queue so people could choose. I chose a French one so I could practice my school french (they were only about 5 yrs old - bless ). I expect the Eastern Europeans were "foisted " at the end!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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maggi, aw! Fancy being the little one at the end that nobody wanted to talk to!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I'll confess I haven't read all the thread but I've never seen a problem helping out- as others have mentioned it gives me a chance to practice my crap holiday French.
The 'feet stuck on the bar' thing reminds me of my first ever week skiing- having used the free lifts in Tignes (which were either drags or a chair that didn't have a footrest) my friends took me up a proper lift after a few days to find some easy run- to much amusement at the top as I didn't realise the footrest was part of the barrier- eventually the others managed the lift the bar, resulting in one ski coming off and one whizzing off back down the hill- much mickey taking ensued, both from my friends and the liftie who very helpfully rescued the errant ski...
Seeing as a grown adult of 30 something couldn't manage this simple process, I've never though twice about helping kids on the lifts....
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My wife and I have always helped kids on chair lifts when asked ( or had no choice !!) usually not a problem, we just keep an eye on them. We have had the occasional kid crying their eyes out ( usually coz there cold) and I remember one little girl we had to wake up!! when reaching the top.... We have kids and treat others as we would treat our own.....
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You know it makes sense.
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So clearly there are a number of positions on this.
I think there is the position of legal responsibility and morale.
Morale.
Am I happy and comfortable looking after kids on a lift? Yep of course as it surely helping someone out, even if one could argue that there sure be enough instructors per group. But why should't we help? Look at it another way you get on a chair with adult and hiis or her child in the middle. If child started slipping off would you try and catch him or her. Of course you would.
Legal.
I would guess all the instructors are legally responsible at some level for the people (adults and children) under their tuition. If they ask you to assist unless you have been irresponsible (in the legal sense) then aside from the morale obligation above you aren't obliged in any way other than being an adult and polite with it. Aside from the instructor i am sure the lifteur will have a legal position to ensure each chair is safely loaded.
I have sen my kids (5 and 9) being helped on lifts by other people and have helped both parents and instructors alike with their wards.
However i have never had a 'misbehaving" child on a lift with me.
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